Hi again! I'm trying to help a friend who's an amateur lead vocalist, with a little recording and occasional live performance.

I'm not necessarily interested in generating a "barbershop quartet" harmony, or making her voice sound like a robot. I'm assuming the most useful functions for lead vocals would be subtle pitch correction, dynamic compression, de-esser, etc. I'm not a vocalist myself so I don't even know what the most common issues are.

Which of the following setups would be the most helpful:
(1) Korg Pa1XPro with optional voice modelling board
(2) Korg Pa3X with its built-in tools
(3) TC Helicon Voice Live 2 with chords coming from an arranger or MIDI file*
(4) Other arrangers & solutions??

*Regarding an external vocal processor like the VoiceLive: In your experience do they work as well as an integrated solution such as what's built into the Pa3X? I'm assuming these devices are connected via MIDI. Can it detect notes & chords in real time, does it have issues with feedback, etc.?

Really counting on your experience here. Thanks, sincerely,
Ted

I am not really sure what do you need.You are comparing arrangers with voice processors.Totally two different things.

If you only need something for vocal than I would tell you to get voicelive2.It is much better than the one on pa3x.
I had it for years and it's a great unit.I think every singer should have one and learn how to use it.
It's pretty easy to use,but you do have to know some things how everything works.It has great effects plus compression.

Voicelive touch 1 or two is good to,but you can't edit many things.It all depends how deep you want to go into editing.

VL2 I was using chordal mode,but also scale mode too..I think it works best in scale mode.I prefer it to chordal mode.

There is also voicelive rack which is the same as VL2 but in rack.

If you don't want to do any editing then voiceplay is your best choice.

Hi Ted,
I'm a bit of a vocal addict, so I have some expertise on your questions. First - all of the TC products are amazing. The ones built into the Korgs are terrific, and rival the stand-alone counterparts, like the Voice Live2 and such ... there are tons of editable parameters, and loads of presets to get you started.

I'm confused by your gear reference - do you OWN the PA1X Pro and the PA3x? If not ... buying a keyboard just to get a vocal processor is a bit of overkill. If you already own them - then, great! The PA3x is the most advanced harmonizer in any keyboard to date and I've had most of them. (calm down, Fran ... don't even start in with the Roland stuff - the G70 is wonderful in many ways, but the TC harmonizer is a better product)

The biggest trick to sounding great with a harmonizer is to sound great WITHOUT one ... and to THINK, and sing like the counterparts you are emulating. The Lettermen were very bland, average sounding singers individually, but as a unit - they were fantastic. You need to breathe as one, articulate less often and only sing where the harmonies really ought to be. Simply turning it on and singing lead will get boring and robotic very quickly. To start, I'd recommend a basic third above your pitch - that's an easy harmony to make believable ... even on substandard gear. The more voices you add, the better they BETTER sound! lol

Tell me your "go to" gear setup, and I'll get more specific with my advice.
Here's an early example I recorded with a Digitech VR about 10 years ago. It's more of a "Four Aces" sound ... lots of singers n the room! Enjoy.

Like Dave, I live and die by my vocals. Therefore, my advice is not to worry too much about the keyboard, but the vocal processor instead. The Voice Live 2 is a great option, but I found the TC Helicon Harmony-M did an outstanding job, and at a much lower cost.

Just sayin,

Gary

Dave, that was awesome!

One of Dave's 'old chestnuts' ... harmonies driven by right hand chord changes, correct, Dave? ...

A 'chestnut' it may be, but not too shabby a chestnut, eh? Still very enjoyable.

Very nicely done. I am very happy with the Digitech VL3D- their most recent tabletop unit I believe..

Digitech VL3D

Ah Caught you Dave.
You have put a picture of your father in your avatar because you are actually 30 and famous.
baz

Sigh ... yup - that's my Dad, all right! (lol)I'm just biding time with that picture till I get back to my fightin' weight - I started eating right 3 weeks ago and I lost 20 lbs, and almost SEVEN inches all over! I feel great, and my newly repaired Knee feels better than ever.
Thanx for the kind words - that piece was my attempt to sound like Manhattan Transfer, and yes ... all right hand chord triggers. Manual bass, drum machne - no arranger. It was recorded on my old Yamaha 9000PRO.

30, and famous? naw ... 58 (in a week) and happy, though!

ABSOLUTELY!!! ... no intent to slight it in the least ... one of my all time favs ...
UD is one of my SZ idols ... and they are all younger than me ...

Tony, most everyone is younger than you and I. Dave also made a statement that is so, so true. "The trick is to sound good without one." Right on the money, Dave. I'm always amazed at the number of individuals who don't sound remotely good without effects of any kind, and against all odds they believe if they buy ABC they'll sound fantastic. It ain't gonna hapen!

An example of this took place last night while performing down here in Paradise at the marine tiki hut. I had just made a number of announcements and forgotten to switch off the keyboard's talk mode. I sang about three songs with absolutely no effects other than a light touch of reverb from the TC Helicon Harmony-M. One of the songs that is always requested by my audiences is The Last Farewell. They all claim I sound just like Roger Whittaker, and some say I sound better. When I finished that song, a half-dozen ladies came up to me, thanked me for doing the song, got some hugs and kisses too.

Now, I sincerely believe that I sound better with a bit more reverb, but I don't use any other effects other than a sprinkle of harmony for some songs. The one thing I learned early on about the Harmonizer was that it sounds so wonderful when your vocals are spot on. But, it can sound so bad when those vocals are not right on the money.

As Dave clearly demonstrated, you can do a lot with more complex chords and great vocal control. Vocalists who lack that control should NOT use a vocal harmonizer. Using a vocal harmonizer is a musical skill within itself. It's a talent that requires a fair amount of dedication to both your vocal abilities, and your ability to get the most out of the vocal processor. This is NOT a plug and play device by any means. There is a significant learning curve to make everything come together and not only sound realistic, but sound fantastic as well.

Good Luck,

Gary

big ditto Gary !

Donny, some of the ladies said I look a lot like Roger Whittaker as well. I didn't think that was the case until I took a look at this later version he performed. As usual, the ladies are right - we do look quite a bit alike.



Gary

Sure as heck its a close match..only difference is his bank account vs yours lololololol too bad you have to leavev paradise sounds like your having a fantastic time...going back again next winter too?

Not heading down here again till 2014, of course that's if my health holds up. Sure hate to leave, though.

Gary

Leave boat....fly back.....and fly south again is that an option?

I'll keep this thread HI-JACKEDfor one more post ...
I would think keeping the boat down there would be pretty expensive, no, Gary ???

"We now take you back to our 'feature' presentation ..."



Sparky ... if that's the updated Digitech Vocalist EX:


that's a great little unit ...

Fortunately, I do not need the "Pitch Correct" setting that is shown ...

You're right Tony - very, very expensive. Real estate in Paradise means big bucks, and that boat takes up a lot of real estate when sitting dry ground.

Back on topic: I thought this was their latest and greatest:



Gary

Gary ... yes ... what I did not correctly say was that the VL3D:


was the replacement for the EX that I showed ...

Tony, you've got mail.

The VL3D is what I have and recommend. 3 easy payments from AMS...

Thanks guys! Uncle Dave your recording sounds awesome- and you say you made that on a PSR-9000 Pro? Wow!!

As great as that sounds, I'm not so much interested in multi-part harmony as pitch correction, compressor, de-esser, reverb, etc. I have a Pa800 (as well as Yamaha and Roland arrangers w/o VH.) I'm trying to decide between upgrading to one of the other Korgs, or just buying a stand-alone unit from TC Helicon or Digitech.

Until the last couple of posts about Digitech, I was leaning toward an external TC Helicon unit. Which is better, the VoiceLive 2 or VoiceLive Touch? When these are connected via MIDI, do they work as well as the built-in stuff? I assume that if you use the "transpose" feature on the KB that the vocal harmony units will follow?

I understand that digital voice processing isn't a substitute for practice or singing on-key, and I'm not expecting my friend to come out sounding like Alicia Keys. But I'm eager to explore the potential gains from integrating vocals with arranger chord recognition, to our mutual benefit. Thanks!!

Personally, I'm not a big fan of pitch correction when you can't monitor the original without the audience hearing it.

In most cases, the singer hears their own voice, and the audience hears the pitch corrected version. If you can't hear your OWN voice, it's hard to tell how far off you are, when your head voice is drowned out by the processed one. In the studio, the artist NEVER hears the pitch correction until afterwards.

I'm pretty sure the 9000PRO did not have the "PSR" prefix... not that there's anything WRONG with that ... lol

Yes it did it was a PSR 9000 Pro..Actually as I recall..the model was a PSR, but on the back of the keyboard they did not use the prefix PSR...only 9000 Pro..

I don't remember seeing the "PSR" anywhere on the unit. The plastic, 61 key models had it, but the PRO model did not .... as I recall.

Someone have the real answer? Now, I'm curious!

Here ya go, Dave: PSR-9000

Gary

Digitech VR ( the one UD used) only has reverbs.no pitch correction, eq or even compressor.
http://www.digitech.com/system/documents/99/original/VocalistVR.pdf?1289592527

Yep, I have a pair of them sitting on the shelf at home, still in their boxes. Gonna sell them as soon as I get back there.

Gary

Dave's DA MAN!


R.

Do you remember where that is???

... and you don't need no freakin' PITCH CORRECTION !!!

Yep, I vaguely remember that place. It's where they're experiencing freezing rain this afternoon and evening, which contrasts dramatically with the 85-degrees and palm trees environment I'm currently residing in.

Kinda brings a tear to your eye - doesn't it!

Of course, there's a country song that portrays my homecoming.

Must have been the extra notes that earned the 9000Pro its 'Pro moniker, eh? LOL

It's amazing. Little kids learn on 88 note pianos, but as soon as they move to a keyboard, it only takes 76 for a 'Pro' rating..!

Mind you, you'll never see the words 'Amateur' silk-screened on all the 61's. But isn't that what putting 'Pro' on a 76 implies, eh Yamaha?

The vocal harmonizer in the PA3x is by far the best I've experienced in arrangers. It rivals or surpasses the stand-alone units I've had.
I enjoy the convenience of a built-in harmonizer. No extra gear to set up, hook up and transport.
I still have a PA3X for sale if any one is interested.
DonM

Ditto on da harmonizer.

That's not the one, Gary - it was the 76 key, all metal chassis, with XLR mic input - really a solid build. I'm pretty sure I'm right about this. The PSR was the plastic series with speakers.

Correct Dave

You mean this old tank. Had one - hated it! Sold it a couple days after I bought it.





It had lots of neat features, but tipped the scales at 52 pounds and was really bulky to pack around.

Gary

The 9000Pro was about the last 'pro' arranger Yamaha made, wasn't it? The last 76, I'm pretty sure!

Way I remember it, didn't it have some issues with sluggish operation? Seems a shame that something that the blame for not being successful really lies at the feet of the R&D team (obviously bit off more than they could chew, or at least the CPU could chew!), not the consumer...

Who knows? If R&D hadn't banjaxed this one so bad, maybe Yamaha would still be making 'pro' 76 arrangers? I must confess I still find it odd that the entire rest of the arranger market (well, not Roland anymore, but they've abandoned the entire TOTL market for now - bet you if they get back in though, there will be a 76!) don't have a problem with 76's, but Yamaha, after ONE failure (that had nothing to do with the number of keys) bail on the whole sector...

Diki,

The main problem with that particular model was the key strips, which frequently went south in just a few months of normal playing. If you were one of those guys that hammered the keys the longevity was much less. Replacement of the keypads was a nightmare. I only did this once from a friend, and vowed never to open the 9000-pro again.

It also had a very limited onboard memory, but that didn't seem to hinder the loading time of styles.

Gary

After all the success of the Tyros & PSR S lines of 61 arrangers, I doubt very highly Yamaha needs to release another 76 key arranger after the failure of the 9000pro.
Their thought is Why fix it if it ain't broke.....they are making huge success & profits the way it is with 61.

But they were the ones who broke it! Again, I repeat, the failure of the 9000pro had nothing to do with how many keys it had.