I thought I'd start a new topic about the keyboard stands.

I've noticed that, in discussing various stand designs, no one seems to be bothered about the lack of floor space for "pedals." Is everyone forgetting the extra dimension that different pedals bring to your playing?

In the old days, I would use (under my A-frame stands) two volume pedals (one for my main keyboard (DX7)and one for MIDI connected Roland sound module), a wah-wah pedal for guitar sounds, a fill-in pedal for “variations and fills," and 2 misc on-off switches.

I don't even recall seeing live keyboard players...anywhere...using pedals (or even their hands to throw in regular fills and style changes).

Fact is, I don't even remember seeing guitarists lately that use pedals like they did in the 70's.

But......to be fair, as I think about it, I (me) don't even use them like I used to. Not even "like I used to"......I don't use them at all. I guess subconsciously, I'm realizing......no one even notices. Just like no one even noticed I used a "15 year old" Roland E-300 and not my new PA3x a few weeks ago.

I agree about some stands not having room for pedals, as I use them all the time. However, there are many that don't.

I come from an organ background, using my feet frequently on bass pedals or expression, in the case of a B3. As far as my other boards, I use a sustain pedal for piano and guitar, always a volume pedal, momentary switch for vocal harmony. and a 6 switch pedal for many functions.

I may be old fashioned, but I don't see how some, at least, are not necessary.

Bernie

I cannot play in arranger mode without my FC-7. I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would want to take their hands off what they are playing, simply to trigger a fill or variation change!

Hi guys...i use 2 fc-7 pedals along with 2 sustain pedals with an air turner...i've been thinking about using a pedal board to mount those pedals for sometime. Back in the day i had a board made up for several guitar pedals since i covered guitar parts in the group i played with a keyboard...having moved a B3 around for years i to am used to using several pedals to acquire the sound necessary for a performance.

Steve
Mox8, 2 pa600's, psr s910, cx3

Mark

For that very reason I've used Quiklok 695 stands for years. I have three and was just about to list one for sale if your interested. I also have the mic boom attachment and extra tier to make it a 3 level stand. Very sturdy and never a problem. I use them with all my pedals, including my bass pedals when I had the Blues Band going. You actually saw the stand when you visited me at the German club. I think their discontinued but thats why I buy extras when I find something I like.

On arranger, I use the 13 note Ketron control pedals. On any other combination of Keys,if possible, I use a 13 note bass unit(an old Krumar, believe it or not).

I have several old A frame stands....forgot the name. Even when I have a 2nd keyboard at 90 degrees, I have some effects pedals. Now, I often use a looper to record a part in real time; then play over on guitar.

FUN STUFF!

Russ

I use at least 2 pedals, one for expression and the other for Sustain or hold, In reality, I always use 3, the other is for assorted functions, sometimes for Break/Fill, others for S.A.2., ETC.
I use the Y stand by quick lock, I still have the M92 (Monolith) also QL.

I use two pedals, one for vocal harmony on/off and a sustain/effects pedal. I used to use a volume pedal, but I always was hitting it when I didn't want to, therefore it was eliminated from the setup. Beneath my X-stand there's more than enough room for bass pedals as well.

Cheers,

Gary

I dont use any pedals anymore....who wants to setup all that stuff.

Donny, one of my pedals stays plugged in all the time to the TC Helicon Harmony-M and is Velcro'd to the inside of my custom console. The Sustain/Effects pedal is the only one that gets unplugged. My hands are just too busy to do a lot of button pushing.

Gary

I argued that a sustained pedal was not necessary when playing piano on a keyboard. I was so wrong – I am now trying to get use to add sustain where needed.

You can’t sound like a piano player without using a pedal; it makes the sound go up about 10 notches.

John C.

Anyone that wants to sound like a pianist. Anyone that wants something to sustain in the LH while they use the bender. Anyone that needs to make a Variation change during a busy passage. Anyone that cares more about music than the 20 seconds setup time putting a pedal down would take.

I just picked up a psr950 and use a volume and sustain pedal as always. I wish there were more than 2 pedal outs on it; with the addition of the harmonizer in this model, I anticipated using a momentary switched pedal to turn it on and off. May need to go with midi pedal controller, or midi expression pedal in stead of fc7. Always like quiklok Z stands- plenty of room under them

Lots of luck finding a midi controller other than Yamaha MFC10.
I couldn't find one that worked.
I hope you do!
DonM

Since we are on pedals, I find it annoying, when assigning switch to fill, that it keeps on playing until I stomp on it again(S910).
I am using the self fill. The only other one I saw was fill up.
Bernie

Bernie, I suspect it's the pedal itself that causes that. The pedal must be a momentary pedal, one that is only on while being held down and off as soon as it is released. There is another type of pedal that has a latching switch - it's on when pressed down and released, and does not turn off until it's pressed down and released again.

Hope this helps,

Gary

On a related note, I also have a problem with Roland's on a similar issue. Although the D-Beam offers Fill-UP or Fill-DOWN as options, it can only do ONE of those.

But the FC-7, while you can select each Variation individually (with Auto Fill ON), Fill-UP and Fill-Down are not offered. Which seems a FAR better place for that pair of commands!

If you need more commands on the FC-7 than the three that are left over once you have set up Var 1-4, a simple pair of Fill-UP and Fill-DOWN allows you to get through ALL the variations easily, and frees up two more slots. All you need to do more than one move is a double tap to go down two Var, or a triple for three.

Diki, I think you mean MFC10 rather than FC7, no?

Midi solutions makes pedal controller which can be assigned to do a multitude of things, and comes set as a volume pedal on ch 7 as the default. Should have kept the one I had...but I really am trying to eliminate peripheral equipment.

Roland, Ketron make a 5 pedal f/s, why not the rest? Don'
t always need 10-13 etc.

No... I mean the Roland FC-7 seven switch pedal.

The problem with MIDI pedals is, so little of the arranger's OS is selectable via MIDI. At least with Roland's. For instance, the BK-9 can select over thirty different functions with the simple switches, but MIDI can address a mere ten or so of them. And most of them pertain to the simple selection of style divisions. More complex functions like ABASS/Man. Bass and stuff like that doesn't have any MIDI hooks into it.

This is also why the iPad apps can do little more than duplicate front panel commands... most of the good stuff you want to get at has no MIDI address, but simply resides as OS commands deep down in the menu structure.

Possibly Yamaha's have a far greater list of things you can get at, but it also means jacking around with sys-ex, as I understand that that is used for most things via MIDI. This is all well and good until you need to deal with a variable (say for instance Reverb Hall Size), rather than a switch function, as checksums need calculating, etc..

Hello everyone, I am new here.

I have a configurable USB breath controller that plugs directly into my Kronos. The great thing about it is that it can be configured to send any MIDI CC on any channel, so I can assign it to trigger or control whatever I want.

Just blow into it, no need to take my hands off the keyboard.

This looks interesting- but it's in S. Korea

Boss pedal

And this from Japan..

Yamaha MFC06

Keep in mind that whey using multiple pedals, at least on most Yamaha machines, some of the pedals that connect together will not function because of grounding conflicts. Some of the Boss pedals, for example, that are made of anodized aluminum and slide together side by side, are grounded to the cases. Consequently, when connected to the keyboard's pedal inputs, and two separate functions are selected, the floating ground connections of the input jacks become one connection. Consequently, neither pedal will function. Several individuals discovered this the hard way.

The only workaround for this is to separate the pedals, mount them on a non-conductive panel using Velcro, and wallah, everything will work just tine.

Cheers,

Gary

Gary when recording I'll hook up my BOSS FS6 dual foot switch with no problems on my Yamaha S950..

BOSS FS6

That's very interesting. Can you give me more information about how you're using the breath controller and the brand/model? Examples of what you "trigger" with it? etc

I remember years ago I had a friend who was a true one-man-band. He had all hands and feet working at the same time........and........I remember him playing flute, at the same time, on his DX7 with the breath controller.

Ah.... the old DX-7 breath controller sax! Still little around to match it..!

Samples are OK, but they are SO static. The breath controller allowed you to soft tongue, hard tongue, slur, swell, sfz, go from a purr to a growl (you could flutter tongue it and the DX-7 would flutter too!).

You get a very accurate one note with a sample. But the DX-7 allowed you to PHRASE, and, although it is an improvement, even SA2 doesn't allow you to do the stuff that old FM synth could!

BTW, here's little tip for those of you that might be experiencing 'pedal creep' with all those pedals down there...

Rubber shelf liner. http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/1/1/13021-con-tact-grip-12-x-15-ultra-shelf-liner-white.html

Cut out a piece that extends a little beyond your pedals or even a piece that your keyboard stand can rest on, then put your pedals on that. Pedal creep begone!

Diki......are you saying today's breath controller's are not up to snuff? That you couldn't "phrase" like it was done on the DX7?

I never used a breath controller.....no one ever mentions them....I forgot all about them. What a new dimension that would give to expressive playing!

The problem is that just about everything short of modeling VSTi sax programs use samples... which are a snapshot of a sound. But you put a horn to your lips, and every single note is, or can be, utterly different to every other note.

If you want a growl sax, you have to switch to a growl sax patch (if you have one), but a real saxophonist can start a note smooth and sweet, make it brighter and rougher as he plays louder (still the same note!) and end up with a growl and a squeak! And that's just the first note he plays!

A sample is a recording of a note. Played one way. Too bad if you want to morph it into something else!

The thing about the breath controller when used with the DX-7 (or other FM based synths) was that the breath control was used to not only get you amplitude control (in other words, when you played a note, nothing came out until you blew) but that the strength of the blowing radically changed the tone of the note. And so, by tonguing harder or softer, the attack of the note changed, not just in volume, but timbre too. And, as you continued to blow, you could blow harder or softer to get the timbre to change.

This, combined with volume pedal use, allowed you to do things like blow hard and reduce the volume, to get a quiet but bright sound, to blowing softer but raising the volume, for a full volume, but mellow sound. Or hit the note hard and die away, then swell back. You simply cannot get that degree of control over sampled notes.

So, it's not the problem with the breath controller, it's a problem with the keyboard it is controlling.

FM, while it had its shortcomings (it was a bear to edit and create new sounds on), had all kinds of advantages over samples. Not just with the breath controller, either. The famous DX-7 electric piano sound was so popular because it was so expressive. If you listen to most sampled E. Pianos, you'll hear a sudden change in timbre as you play increasingly harder, as different samples (recorded at stronger and stronger playing levels) get switched to. But the DX-7 went from smooth and mellow to bright and bell-like completely without any jumps in timbre, simply a gradual smooth change.

Until you get into GigaSampler sized E. Piano libraries, with so many different samples per note that the change in timbre becomes smooth again, all WS and arranger E. Pianos pale in comparison to how smooth the timbre changes were on FM synths.

The device I have is made by TEControl of Sweden.

I mostly use it on CC#2 (breath controller) using William Busch's breath controller programs

There are some good videos on youtube as well, for example this guy is amazing

Surprisingly, he doesn't use one of the most obvious uses for this... the FM8 software that modeled the original DX-7!

So maybe to take a few steps forward we need to take a few steps backwards....take out the old DX7. Personally, I love the machine and what it could do.



Yes, the only shortcoming was the editing. But after I bought the software package to edit it on the screen you zipped right through making sounds. And you could modulate those sounds in so many ways. I have a hankering to pull it out and listen to it again.

But, getting back to the breath controller, I hear what you're saying....not practical on samples....great explanation.

But then.....even if it worked as well as on the DX7, the more I thought about it the more I reminded myself this is not the 70's anymore when a good OMB reigned supreme. Now no one really cares if you have a breath controller or a lollipop in your mouth.

It's a shame now that we have all this technology and pretty much nowhere to go with it.

There is a very interesting debate about the breath controller sampling vs. modeling argument here



And he attached a couple of impressive MP3s to his message.

It's interesting though, that he sticks to easier instruments to emulate than the saxophone...

As I mentioned earlier (with reference to the E. Piano smoothness), you start to use sampled libraries with dozens of samples per note, and much of the shortcomings of samples can be mitigated. But you are still faced, especially with the saxophone, which has probably the largest timbrel difference of any wind instrument for even one note, that simple blowing doesn't really begin to cut it. With reed instruments (and brass), there's a LOT you do to change the timbre by mouthpiece pressure, biting down a bit harder on the reed, changing the angle of the reed in your mouth, how hard or softly you tongue the note, how you shape your mouth, things like that. It doesn't boil down to such a simple thing as how hard you are blowing, which is all a MIDI mouthpiece tracks. Some of the dedicated sax controllers tracked more parameters, like bite strength, but that's not much use if you can't already play a reed instrument, and if you can, why use emulation in the first place?!

The combination of modeling AND samples seems to be currently the best way for sax emulation, but again, NONE of this is available in an arranger. SA2 seems to be King of the Hill so far in arrangers, but again, you have to play what the sample set does best, NOT necessarily what you want to do!

Eventually, we are likely to see arrangers based on something like the Kronos engine, which supports various synthesis options including samples AND modeling, and things may well improve. But until then, emulating saxophones remains an exercise in frustration, forcing you to play what the sample set does best rather than whatever you feel like..!

This guy is able to control his Samplemodeling sax with just a breath controller and mod wheel, he is simply amazing. The sax bit starts in the middle around 3:30

I don't gig anymore and I love the Yamaha Stand, LS7. It does not fold up so for gigging, it's not really suited. As far as
being sturdy, it's the best. I use the Yamaha Vol. pedal and a
piano style sustain pedal. Playing the organ for years I find
myself still "button pushing" for changing presets. Lloyd

I still have my Yamaha CS-01 mono analog synth, and it has the breath-controller feature. Very expressive on nearly every sound. It has two rotary dials to adjust how it affects the sound.

I run it through the Tyros4's Mic input.

Ian

Just using a breatcontroller..

mastering a breathcontroller takes months of dedicated training, atleast for me it did... Mastering a breathcontroller gives you so much power when playing virtuall acoustic instruments like trumpets, saxes and trombones.. but also flutes and more

real time controll is truely the weak points of arrangers...for real time controll you could use all sorts of things...

-pedals (switch-damper-volume)
-knobs
-sliders
-breathcontroller
-wheels
-dpad
-vector stick
-touch sensitive slider
-touchscreen interface
-D-beam

My set up has all of these, because i just enjoy havin gmeans to controll stuff in real time..


How many of these does your arranger have? And how many do you use?

The trouble with all this and traditional arranger play is, you HAVE to use pitch wheels and all those other controllers to get the fluid sound of the sax. Basically, a sax player bends, in a small or larger way, almost EVERY single note.

How are you going to play the arranger chords AND sit there with your hand glued to the bender, mod wheel, and all the SA switches and other input devices? This is why, to be perfectly frank, I don't honestly think I've ever heard a LIVE arranger sax solo that sounded even a fraction as good as the audio demos for the SA type sax sounds on the factory demos. These are all done with sequencers, and most likely a two handed first take, then a bunch of editing.

Be interested in hearing anything done live that equals those factory demos...

The guy in the video I posted seems to be improvising, without editing. Here's another one from him

The point was in reference to stuff like that while playing an arranger (which tends to tie up your LH unless you use SMF's or the Chord Sequencer first).