Thinking about selling my S950. I might be moving into the Korg world. Used my little KMA yesterday for a gig and everyone loved it. Kinda makes you wonder.

Deane

Welcome to the world of Korg

Deane, I sincerely believe your audiences would love your performances regardless of the keyboard you're playing. Give me a call when you have time. I'm working today until about 5 p.m., so anytime after that is fine.

Gary

Ditto, although my full time job keeps me from playing as many gigs as I would like. I still play a couple every month. Whether I take the T4 or the Pa3x, I really believe it's only me that notices the board I'm using. I've had comments from audiences on both boards saying "wow that's some kinda keyboard you're playing".

Yes, you play great! Your audience will love your music on any good KB. Just wondering why does it have to be Korg or Yamaha? I mean if you can afford to keep them both, why not just go for the
"best of both worlds" approach like Stephenm52 does?

On my bigger jobs that I do, actually bring both my Tyros 2 and Korg Micro Arranger. I'm not sure the audience would even know or care but I like the opptions 2 keyboards gives me.

You just don't need TOTL keyboards to simply play with styles. Plus, if you play the same number of gigs, make the same money, and can use cheaper gear - why not?

Deane

Don't need Infinity or Mercedes, but WANT is different!

Do you want to trade it in on a Korg PA3X 61?
DonM

If your gigs are anything like mine here in the DFW area, TOTL is not at all cost effective.

Don,
I'am not sure yet. Other than my Korg KMA I have bought and sold a PA1X, PA2XPro, and a PA600 because of various reasons. Right now I am looking at simple and easy to carry around.

As for being "cost effective". I learned a long time ago - if they don't want to pay my rate someone else can play the gig. I have dozens I won't play because they are constantly griping about my fees. If someone is dumb enough to play for "dinner" or a fee that hardly covers expenses that is their problem but I darn sure am not going to do it.

Deane

You have to hold onto a TOTL keyboard a lot longer than a MOTL one to fully make it worth while. One of the reasons why I stuck with my G1000 for well over 10 years, have happily used my G70 for eight (and counting, at least for live use now) and anticipate my BK-9 quite possibly going to the end of my career (and that isn't even TOTL!).

That and familiarity and intimate knowledge of how to wring the best out of it without the manual..!

But I agree, MOTL arrangers are becoming so incredibly good, capable and affordable, they often make the TOTL choice a bit pointless. Often, the few things the TOTL adds are things like samplers so few of us use, paying an extra $2000 or so makes little sense...

I would love to use the Roland G70 and the Lionstracs MediaStation...on every job I do...and yes the Roland BK5 could easily do the same job.

The benefits are all mine, not the audience.. .

As long as I can deal with the weight and carrying extra gear..I would be happiness with the two keyboard set up...Practical..nope

But the main reason I play is for my enjoyment..what better than two keyboards with the best key feel in the business, touch screens, and each of them with strenghts that are at the top of the field..all packaged together in a 100 pound combo

It feels so wimpy setting up a 16 pound keyboard, that does it all

I also think folks get rid of their keyboards before they even know how to use them...I know I heard folks say..I don't need certain features...but if they learned how to use them, it would be a different story...

I figured out the problem, all my "old friends" keep complaining about the weight, and almost convinced me to their thinking...I didn't even consider a light weight keyboard even a few short years ago..I always wanted the best, and that was top of the line..and yes it weighed a bit more, or you knew it lacked quality construction..

It sort of reminds me of old pickup basketball games...youn g kids had the shooting eye and quickness, but the older, wiser thugs , I mean players knew that bulk and heavier body just would wear the youngsters (light weights) down..Same with the G70 and BK5

LOL, Fran...

I have to confess, I don't mind the light weight of the BK-9 at all! But, if Roland came out with a BK-10 using the same action, touch screen and build quality as the G70 (and all the features from the G70 that have gone bye-bye!), I have to confess, I'd probably ditch the BK-9 and go back to something 20 lbs. heavier!

For me, it's about capability, not weight!

Mind you, the E60 sported a 76 and speakers only 7 lbs more than the BK-9, and that had the touch screen... and that's only 2 lbs. more than an S950!

I think Roland could give us a touch screen BK with a decent 76 at under 30 lbs. easy. Leave off the speakers, it ought to be easy!

Deane, hold your PSR950 and get a Korg as well, maybe have

another look at the PA600 or maybe the Pa900 if it finally appears.

Frank

I don't think there is any doubt as players, all of us enjoy the TOTL keyboards more than others. I would not argue that point with anyone. My situation is I had cervical spine surgery in August and might be looking at lumbar spine surgery for stenosis in the near future. For me, weight and size became a must consider rather than my ability to handle the gear. I would not have considered changing from my T4 had I not had to deal with the spine thing. On the other hand, when I started using lighter gear such as my little KMA or the S950 my audiences did not seem to care at all. Keep in mind, I don't play clubs or dances anymore. My audiences are 100 percent old folks living in retirement communities or assisted living facilities.

Yes, I will take a serious look at the specs of the PA900 when available as well as the BK-9 if I can get my hands on one in a local store. So far, not a single music outlet in the Dallas or Ft Worth area carries the BK-9.. go figure.

Deane

I think we really need to see the inclusion of an arpeggiator in an affordable arranger before they become popular enough to get widespread in modern music stores.

Let's face it, we are a tiny fraction of stage and WS sales, and our arrangers are usually primarily set up to emphasize musics that no self-respecting kid (up to age 30, I'd say! LOL) is going to want to play! There has been a huge shift in music since our day, but our arrangers don't reflect it much. Everything else out there (including VERY inexpensive keyboards) includes an arpeggiator of some kind or another. Other than the Audya (outside most people's budget, and almost impossible to see in a store), no arranger includes an arpeggiator.

TBH, the BK-9, if an arpeggiator was tacked on, has most of the features that youngsters enjoy... audio loop playback, plenty of sliders to mess with the sound while it plays, etc..

But that arpeggiator is a must.

Deane, you might also consider that the BK-9 may be shipping out as fast as they get them in, in the initial rush to buy them, and also, how many OTHER $2500 arrangers are easily seen in the same area? Round my small market, there are no S950's, PA800's or BK-9's, let alone TOTL arrangers!

But I still feel our keyboard of choice is doomed to an ever dwindling market segment unless something modern gets grafted on. The arranger has much to offer modern players, but some features are needed, and a large portion of the NH type styles need dropping. How are you going to sell an arranger to a youngster if it is stuffed with ballroom dancing, bossa and samba styles? Even for us, the CONTENT is what sells us the arranger. Most of us happily give up on far more capable arrangers when there is less content or it doesn't suit our tastes.

Imagine you were a kid, would you touch an arranger with a barge-pole?

[quote=

Yes, I will take a serious look at the specs of the PA900 when available as well as the BK-9 if I can get my hands on one in a local store. So far, not a single music outlet in the Dallas or Ft Worth area carries the BK-9.. go figure.

Deane [/quote]

You may want to check with Lancaster music. They have been carrying Roland arrangers for awhile.

Have you asked them to get one in?

And psr e433 which has arpeggiator/USB to device for instant song playback, pitch band only and 2 variations.(BOTL)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B008I1XD2A/ref=redir_mdp_mobile

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-i...oards/psr-e433/

Costs $249.

TOTL adds are things like samplers so few of us use, paying an extra $2000 or so makes little sense...

Diki, excellent point !!! I don't use a Sampler feature...and was beginning to think...it was only me that does not use this feature..

ABSOLUTELY !!! ... I have decided that I am at the age where I will fulfill a NEED with a WANT ... I NEEDED to replace my 13 year old Honda - great car, 178M miles, but needed brakes and front end work ... I didn't think it was worth the investment ... bought (leased) what I WANTED - 2013 Cadillac CTS4 Sedan - beautiful car, beautiful ride ... and the 'as needed all wheel drive' will be great in the Winter ... along with our BMW 325Ci rag top for the Summer and my GMC Sonoma pick up for gigs, I am a HAPPY driver ...

Meanwhile, back to the topic ...

I do agree with your views here Diki, but I'm not entirely sure you know what's going down on the NH circuit these days, regardless of general impessions gleaned from this forum. I know it's not in your usual bailiwick. At my stage of the game, though, NH's are about all what's left before I get hauled off to the spotlights in the sky.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that we don't have a single ballroom, bossa or samba in our repertoire. It's all 50's, 60’s, 70’s pop and rock. The folks from the Glenn Miller era are rapidly thinning out, so those in their eighties now are the early Elvis and onward crowd. That, in NH terms, is staying current.

But even so.it's still a hard sell to a youngster if the majority of styles in an arranger are tailored to the 50 and over crowd.

I've long said that arrangers shouldn't try to do everything. A lot of them (most, nowadays) can radically update their ROM styles, even sounds. Why not allow the store to install the ROM pack they think would best suit their customers? No reason why they can't sell an additional style pack to cover missing genres, but if at least 3/4 of the ROM styles in an arranger were tailored to a 20-year age demographic (16-36, 37-57, etc.) I think a lot more kids would buy into them...

And there's nothing to stop a store updating the ROM if Mom & Pop walk in and might like an arranger with the older stuff in it. Keep all the Ibiza and Deep House stuff off of their arranger, keep the Elvis or bigband stuff off the kid's arranger, much easier sell...

Diki,

Seems to me that Yamaha to a certain extent is doing just that:
providing Sample/Style packs for the PSR750/950 even 64Mb large
(that is the size of a Roland G70 SRX extension board !!) all in software and easy to download. (ridiculously priced but that is another story).
I am getting slowly acquainted with my "new" G70, but I am sure the archiving of files ( UPG, UPS, etc.etc) was done by the Italians in 2003 cause it ain't half chaotic. Crickey.....
As to the subject of this thread and also in view of my first remark I have advised Deane to hang on to his PSR750 and get the PA500 in addition. Apparently he could get one (used) at a very very affordable price. I also advised him never ever to sell his KMA !!! And like you said these days motl keyboards are becoming all the rage and combining two or even three different brands , even secondhand, will offer you stellar results, which might be bad news for those eagerly awaiting the arrival of the Tyros 5 or whatever it will be called..

regards,
John

Thanks John,
I always appreciate your input. I too think Diki is right about the "modernization" of arranger keyboards. But, most of the young crowd prefers the Synths and pure workstations. I have elected to return several of the newer arranger keyboards because the styles were not as useful to me as were those on older arrangers. My guess is if you currently own a really top notch high quality arranger and, like me, you mostly play for the senior citizens it might be wise to hang on to it. Roland is not doing much with arrangers today-I haven't played the BK-9 yet, Korg has already moved toward the more modern sounds, and who knows where Yamaha and Ketron will go in the future.

Deane

Roland are quietly reinventing themselves. The BK-9 has the most forward looking approach of any of the arrangers so far. Easy use of audio loops within an arranger or SMF is something that's new to mass produced arrangers, and, to be fair, it has a HUGE selection of modern dance styles onboard. More Ibiza and House and techno than I could ever use (because I don't use it at all!), and an overall emphasis on more modern stuff.

But none of this counts while it remains stuffed with Latin, Ballroom and 50's and 60's stuff too...

Kids today want a keyboard built for THEM... You look at any modern WS, and there's virtually no arps and grooves in them suitable for oldies music. There's a few smooth jazz patterns, the odd swing, but that's about IT. That's why they love 'em. What self respecting 20 something wants to buy something that is OBVIOUSLY designed for his grandparents?!

But the arranger workflow, tied with a modest arpeggiator is going to be the easiest system for them to use, just as it is the easiest for us. Sure, a TOTL workstation could do bigband or jazz or ballroom MUCH better than an arranger (if you have the talent to play and program it well), but we go with arrangers because it's a lot easier... Same deal for the kids.

But they have to overlook those banks of old fart music (as they see it!) before they can get one. And wonder why most of that ROM is not set up so THEY can use it. Let's be honest, if you were 25 and under, you can use a bare 20% of the styles in any modern arranger, and that's being generous! Who's going to waste their money on that?

But stuff an arranger FULL of modern stuff (and let them buy or download an 'oldies pack' if they want it) and I predict they would fly off the shelves. But we HAVE to lose the banks of grandparent styles! As was pointed out earlier, even NH gigs are becoming less and less ballroom, more and more 60's and 70's...

Time for the arranger manufacturers to ditch the old stuff and put in a LOT more new (70's, 80's, 90's...). And Jeez! Would it KILL ya to include an arpeggiator on a decent arranger?

Because of my market, age groups, my own preferences, etc., I want an arranger that's stuffed with older and traditional styles. I never use the dance, techno, ethnic, rock styles. I'd get run out of the places I work. I've often thought this: Why not offer an arranger that's fully-featured but devoid of any preset voices and styles. Then, let the buyer select (and pay for accordingly) the particular style sets and voices they want? Of course, that's dreaming.

That's basically what I'm shooting at. But obviously, to show a keyboard in a store, you need styles in it. But having say two different sets of styles, old and new, basically fill the entire arranger, I think that it is easy for stores to show the keyboard off in its best light depending on who you are showing to...

I am not sure having us pay for the style sets we want at purchase time is a good idea. The arranger should come filled with styles when we purchase it, as they do now. But the buyer should have a choice of which style Pack he gets, and then the option to purchase the OTHER pack if he wants both...

To a certain extent, some arrangers already use this approach. There are arrangers based on current models that have Oriental styles and soundsets. Roland experimented with having Latin, Oriental and Eastern European variants of the same arranger. I simply feel that, while regional variants is a good thing, an AGE variant is also good marketing. And probably would have a much greater impact on getting a new generation to be interested in music making on an arranger.

There's nothing wrong with the basic form, but just like cars get face lifts to appeal to younger buyers, it's time for arrangers to nip and tuck, lose the flab and the wrinkles, and start wearing a hoody and baggy pants!

Or they are going to go the way of the 'home organ'... Gathering dust in Granny's house, no longer made except as hugely overpriced luxury items. The Tyros is already heading down that street!

Larry and Diki,
I see, and understand, both of your positions. If the manufactures of arranger keyboards are going to attract the younger players they certainly must update the styles. However, the USA is just a very small part of the arranger business and will probably have no impact on what they mfgs decide to do. When we go to other countries we see arrangers in just about all the music stores and being used in various venues. Until these people begin to ask for the more modern American music styles I don't see much hope for that to happen.

However, just like Larry said, I too would be chased out of any place I play if I did not have the styles suitable for the music the seniors really enjoy.

Deane

Several years ago I suggested that AKBs be made with necessary basic functions - editing, etc. - at a BASIC price, and have the manufacturer make the styles available for purchase and DL on-line ... this way the users could purchase whatever styles they NEED or want for gigging or 'home play' ... but I guess this would not be 'cost efficient' - make that 'profitable enough' - for the manufacturers ...
The way it is now they can advertise "hundreds of styles", many, or even most, of which a lot of users will never use ...

I think youngsters in EU countries are just as poorly provided. This isn't merely an American thing I'm trying to get over.

It's a generational thing. Kids are buying bleep machines and budget WS's.. Why? Because the don't come stuffed with foxtrots, bossas and 50's Rock and Roll arps! I guarantee, were you to fill up any of the keyboards they currently DO buy with a ton of granny arps and styles, they would no longer buy them, either!

This is a little off topic but it all ties together. Keyboard companies are in somewhat of a dilemma. Today's MOTL arrangers, in many cases, sound almost as good as the high-end boards. I played a Tyros4 a while back at GC and after owning a PSR-s950 briefly I thought the PSR-s950 sounded almost as good as the Tyros4 I played. To most listeners in an audience the miniscule difference in sound quality is not really an issue. Especially if it involves Senior Citizens. God bless them one and all. Many Senior Citizens have at least some hearing loss, and therefore, they can't distinguish the finer details in music. Those with significant hearing loss anyway. Such as the intricate nuances or the expansive realm of highs and lows that gives life and breadth to the sound. So that ultra realistic electric guitar sound on that high-end model wouldn't be appreciated in most cases. Younger audiences appreciate sound quality to a greater degree because their hearing is relatively still intact. Young people and others who don't have hearing loss will appreciate a Tyros4 over the slightly lesser sound quality of the PSR-s950. Although that would not be the case in young people exposed to super loud Hard Rock music, etc. since their hearing would likely also be on the ropes. But I digress.

Back to the dilemma facing keyboard companies. So if Yamaha produces a Tyros5 (or whatever they decide to call it) and it costs $6,500... If they build it, will people actually buy it in sufficient numbers to garner a reasonable profit for Yamaha?

Let's face it. The world economy is currently in the dumps and in the United States the economy continues to struggle and people's income has been going down over the last several years because of the recent recession. Which is still limping along at a snail's pace I might add. If Yamaha produced an $1,899 arranger that sounds almost as good as their top-of-the-line model then most people would purchase the $1,899 model and would be pocketing several thousand dollars in savings in the process. And again some audiences wouldn't know the difference in sound quality and therefore most everybody is happy, including the guy (or gal) that saved thousands of dollars by purchasing that MOTL arranger instead of the "bank busting" higher-end model. That's why the new BK-9 seems so appealing. It has a decent price tag ($2,499) and it sounds excellent from what I've heard so far. So what I am saying is Yammie, Korg, Roland, Ketron and the others must give a viable reason for people to purchase that $6,500 arranger when in most cases the $1,899 arranger would more than suffice. And that's why high-end arrangers may be on the way out. The MOTL arrangers sound nearly as good and they don't break the bank. Things have come a long way in the last ten years. It makes logical sense to have great sound quality at a decent price. In other words, in most cases, the high-end models may not be worth the thousands of dollars in additional cost.

BTW, I'm not trying to diss Senior Citizens. A lot of Senior Citizens have good hearing, and therefore, they would know the difference between medicore sound quality versus excellent sound quality. I'm sure they would enjoy the PSR-s950 or any other high quality MOTL arranger currently on the market. It is up to the keyboardist whether or not he (or she) would want to spend thousands of dollars more for a slight increase in sound quality and a few more features. Which tells you right there that the Big Three and Ketron need to step up their game significantly if they expect people to fork over $5,000 - $6,500 for a 'modest' increase in sound quality over their MOTL sibblings.

All the best, Mike

Mike, most musicians have significant hearing impairment problems - especially those that were in rock bands. In fact, I don't know a single musician that does not have at least some hearing impairment. Hell, most of the seniors probably hear better than most musicians.

As for an arranger keyboard manufacturer gearing up to target a young audience - I don't believe it's sound business sense. Especially here in the United States. I have a friend that owns one of the local area's largest music stores. It takes up an entire, small shopping center, his inventory is huge, and about a decade ago he decided to pretty much eliminate TOTL arranger keyboards and synths from his store.

Now, here's a guy that walks, talks and breathes music, can play better than 99 percent of the players I know of, and his store offers band rental equipment and he has at least a dozen full and part time music instructors there 6 days a week. Like most stores nationwide, arranger keyboard sales only constitute a tiny percentage of his overall sales. What he sells in guitars in just 15 minutes of every day, he doesn't sell in arranger keyboards and synths in a month. And, these are not low-ball guitars, many costing more than an MOTL arranger keyboard.

In years past, his big money generator was band rental equipment. At the beginning of the school year, the store was jammed to capacity with people waiting in up to 5 lines to pick up rental instruments, guitars, flutes, horns, violins, etc... His repair staff consisted of 4 full-time technicians that could fix anything. I watched one of his techs straighten out a tuba one day that looked as if it had been run over by a truck. At the end of a couple hours you would have thought it was brand new and just came out of the box.

We talked about the future of young people in music at length one day. He and I both agree that young people, high school through the college years, are really not interested in playing music as they were in the past. It's not the equipment - it's the learning curve. They tend to want instant gratification with everything. Many learn a half-dozen guitar chords, pick up some decent chops along the way, and have no trouble getting a job with most of the local rock bands. They're not interested in learning how to read music, learning music theory, chord structure, etc... Those that don't want to play an instrument, which is the majority, want their music for free, loud, and they want it NOW!

I believe Yamaha, Roland, Korg and some lesser known manufacturers have done a lot of market research, they're well aware of who is going to buy their arranger keyboards, pianos, organs, etc... They know how to target those consumers, and they know what they will be likely to purchase, not only this year, but 10 years from now.

About 10 years ago I had a talk with Yamaha about changing their displays to supertwist LCD, which gets brighter as more light hits the face of the screen. The advantage being that those of us that play outdoor jobs, tiki bars, pool parties, anything outdoors, would be able to see the display from any angle. I also talked with them about changing the indicator lights on the buttons to super-bright LEDs for the same reasons. The person I talked with said it would not happen for a number of reasons, cost being right at the top of the list, but most of all the demographics. He said their research showed that less than 1/1000th of 1-percent of their overall consumers would benefit from those changes, which was the approximate percentage of players that plays outdoor jobs regularly.

Cheers,

Gary

But if any keyboard defines the term 'instant gratification', it's the arranger!

TBH, most of the keyboards they ARE buying are much harder to work than an arranger... I am CONVINCED it is the content, not the keyboard TYPE that is putting them off. Put the shoe on the other foot - how interested in arrangers would we be if there were next to NOTHING in them we could use? If nearly ALL the styles were hiphop, crunk, deep house, rap, styles like that?

None of us, I'm sure...! Well, that's EXACTLY what young keyboard buyers face. And guess what? Kids aren't buying them. But it's got almost nothing to do with the workflow. That's almost perfect for today's 'one finger' kids!

I don't believe young people are buying anything with keys, Diki - that requires dedication and hard work, both mentally and physically, and that ain't gonna happen! At least from what I see in this part of the world. Maybe things are a bit different in the Florida Panhandle, but I don't think so.

Gary

I have to side with Gary and Deane on this. Having played a great deal of western European music in recent years ,even the younger European folks still celebrate the music of their heritage, right along with their techno thumping.
Workstations satisfy the needs of those who don't do so, especially in the US and UK. An arranger is not needed when house/dance music is not much more than loops that are provided in WS's. And they don't need the sounds or styles in arrangers, nor do they need 4 variations of each and multiple intros/endings. We, the elders, use arrangers for OUR type of music and dancing etc. From a company's standpoint, why modify arrangers instead of just dropping them and letting the synth/workstations/controllers take over, continuing to do what they are doing now? Because we don't want to see arrangers die off? If you don't need what an arranger does, there are these other things out there that are sufficient. Ask any GC that sells to today's youth , and they'll tell you the biggest sales are in controllers with software packages now. No onboard anything. Everything comes from a vst on an ipad or laptop. The stores have entry level arrangers to start some kids off, then it's on to the other stuff, or not. Listening whenever and wherever you want from your mp3 player or phone beats dragging out an instrument for most kids. Technology, and today's taste, are leaving us in the dust.
And like Gary says, today's youth doesn't want to put the time into being real musicians. It is a generational thing. A lot of us learned how to play a piano because there was one in the house when we grew up. Don't see much of that lately. And I agree with the "instant gratification" theory too. While we were lucky to have all 6 strings on our first guitars, today's kids start with a guitar (which mommy and daddy spent multiple car payments on) , then get bored, and move on to the next thing until they are bored with that....
But adding things to arrangers that are already present in WS's and controllers w/vst's simply isn't necessary in a manufacturer's view, just for the sake of keeping arrangers alive. It would be simply non-profitable duplication to dump the old stuff and replace it with new.. The features that arrangers offer are tailored toward "our" generation(s) and are simply not needed for "modern" music. Arrangers suit our demographic much more than that of our kids or grandkids ,just as organs and pianos did for our parents.

All of the above discussion makes sense to me. I see the logic in each response, but don't know who has the edge on "truth." I just hope I can make it through a few more new arranger models before packin' it in. Sure hope the arranger makers don't call it quits, at least not yet. I started many years ago playing the tunes of the 30's through the 50's, and still do. As the generations passed, now my "standards" seem to be tunes from the 60's to 80's. That's as far, musically, I want to go. Try as I may, I'm not enamored by today's pop music. Must be a cultural or generational thing for me, as well. Sure don't lose any sleep or fret over it.

You want to stay in business, you do whatever brings in the most money. If you are losing players altogether, because you don't make anything they can make their music on that is easy to use, you lose a generation.

Maybe that's why theirs is a slacker generation? Nobody makes the GEAR they can use designed for THEM. Keep it simple, make it sound like TODAY. The old Yamaha DJX (not the second one) showed the way. An arranger, with nothing but rap and hiphop in it! It was a great piece of gear.

Yep, that Yamaha DJX was so popular it was almost immediately discontinued. Guess the young people didn't buy many. Give me some examples of what "young people" want to hear, Diki. So far, I've heard nothing that would send chills down my spine.

Gary

As I said, there already are boards "they" can play their music on- WS's and controllers w/ vst's. I looked at the inexpensive Yamaha MM6 when shopping. It has everything they need- rap/hiphop/techno styles/loops and synth sounds. Very few "traditional" sounds, but has some..

It's got the sounds, it's got the loops... but they ain't EASY to play. Maybe why they aren't getting played.

DJX was pretty popular round here when it was out. It got discontinued pretty quickly because it ate into the sales of keyboards MUCH more expensive. Yamaha don't like to have much in common between lines... and certainly don't like cheap keyboards showing up their WS's.

Why not let the market place decide the issue about arrangers? Who's paying for these boards anyway? Parents? If the younger players are not buying arrangers, so what? I'd wager the manufacturers know their market. I'll play bossas until the market dies off. Tastes change, sure. If so, I'll quit. Wonder why an enterprising company hasn't designed an arranger around rap and hiphop and left off the traditional stuff?

Yeah I hear you. Most young people in their 20's and 30's will opt for a digital piano or a workstation keyboard. There's still a stigma attached to arrangers. The biggest one being they compare them to toys. The stigma was instilled in the formative years of arranger production and it still lingers today unfortunately. I can imagine many young people won't take the time to play the current crop of arrangers and it's a real shame. Because if they did play a mid or high-end arranger they would realize the "toy" designation is long gone. Ingrained perceptions are hard to break and dismissing them outright doesn't help matters. In other words, they don't realize what they're missing.


The question posed by Deane was a simple one. If you can get by with lower cost gear that sounds great then why bother buying an ultra expensive high-end arranger? Makes sense to me. Hence the possibility the Big Three (and Ketron) might discontinue their high-end arrangers in favor of great sounding MOTL arrangers that won't break the bank. I think the Roland BK-9 is a prime example of that.

I haven't played the Korg microArranger but if Deane says it sounds good that's good enough for me. I still think there's a market for ultra expensive high-end arrangers e.g. Tyros5/6/7/8/9 etc., but that market is rapidly shrinking in my opinion. Although if the world economy recovers to pre-recession levels then they could roll out the "big guns" at a later date. Time will tell. Hopefully they'll reduce the prices to 'pre-greed' levels once they do. Or rather, if they do. Again, time will tell.

All the best, Mike

The stigma about arrangers comes from them being stuffed with Granny styles! Got nothing to do with them being 'toys'. DJX was a 'toy'. Sold great to the kids. Because it was designed for them... Wouldn't have sold hardly any if it were stuffed with waltzes, polkas and beguines!

Sadly, the arranger manufacturers are ignoring their own future, pretty much guaranteeing the slow, sad decline of the arranger...

Remember the 'home organ'? R.I.P.

Soon to be joined by the arranger, because no manufacturer will take out the Granny styles and market it specifically for the young.

Arranger or OMB concept is huge else where except for US/UK,
Mid east/EU are asia ,OMB arrangers are doing well.(playing newer dance songs)

I have to disagree on price levels. If you compare today's arranger prices with what they were 20 years ago, they have gone up very little, if at all, when you consider the overall inflation level.
Gasoline price has increased maybe 10-fold during that time. McDonalds will cost you five or six bucks compared to a dollar or so 20 years ago. How about a new car? Get ready to shell out 30 to 40 thousand for a pretty fancy one.
I gave $8,000 (at dealer cost) for an organ in the 80's!
I'm not saying I wouldn't like to buy a less expensive arranger, and I do, because today's PSRs or other MOTL models are WAY better than what was available 20 years ago at any price.
I have paid more than the cost of today's arrangers for the peripherals such as mixer, effects processors, vocal processors, external modules,etc., that are included on most decent arrangers now.
I'll bet almost anyone on here would pay $5000. for an arranger that had EVERYTHING they wanted on it. Of course, no two would be the same because we all have different needs and wishes.
DonM

I just checked with my friend that owns the local music store about the sales of DJX's. He said he sold all of his at and below cost just to get them out of inventory. Most sat around for years - even the kids didn't want them.

Gary

Maybe he is confusing them with the DJXmkII... which was a dud.

Guys all I got to say is this: Where I come from, (and I am probably the youngest member here...) Arrangers are being bought and used all the time. Both by kids (yes, youngsters) and pro's and it (one man band) is a very profitable business here.

The reason i'm the only one here saying this is because all those guys in my area don't post on this forum. They probably couldn't care less about it any way. They get their way around arrangers very quick and have tons of friends who can help if they have a problem.

May I add also that we here don't care about the styles ANY keyboard comes with, because we almost all use custom made styles. We don't buy a keyboard based on the styles it has, but on the usability.

I don't mean to offend anyone here, quite the contrary, all i'm trying to say is that the arranger business is NOT DEAD, NOR WILL IT BE FOR QUITE A WHILE. Even for the young guys.

"Reporting from Brooklyn"...

Be nice to hear all these 'custom styles' you guys are churning out...

Diki,

I posted a couple thousand of them on the PSR-tutorial. They're not remakes of existing styles, but custom styles created from scratch and highly tuned. Of course, in order to play them, you'll need a Yamaha keyboard. You'll find them at http://psrtutorial.com/sty/index.html

Not every style posted is incredible, and may not be in the top-notch category, but of the 64,000 styles posted there are a huge number of them that are absolutely outstanding, especially for a OMB entertainer. And, yes, they are song specific, which is the way most people wanted them, and why those that took the time to create them did such a wonderful job.

It would be quite difficult to find a style file collection as vast as this one anywhere else on the Internet.

Cheers,

Gary

I would not go through 64,000 styles..trying to find decent styles...Maybe they should be rated by members that tried them...and weed out the poorer styles..

I have my Roland library of all quality styles...and I don't want to go through them either..Thankfully 30 or so styles are enough for me...if I need song specific performance..it will be a SMF (not much different from a song specific style).

Unfortunately, what you might really like, I may not like at all, and vice-versa. During the past decade or so, I've been through thousands upon thousands of styles, many of which I would rate extremely high, but because it's so very subjective, I don't post the ratings.

And, yes, those Tune 1000 and other high-quality SMF files are great tools, and with some keyboards you can actually loop the file so it reverts back to a certain point without interruption, which is a neat feature if your keyboard happens to have it. Mine does not. And, using the style files allows me to be a lot more creative, while at the same time providing me with the freedom to change things on the fly.

Now, a lot of those style files have been renamed to specific song titles, thereby allowing you to look for a style file that fits a particular song title, and in some instances, a performer. For example, I have one called the Elvis Shuffle, which fits a multitude of Elvis songs. I also have a folder of styles for just Glenn Miller, each style named for a specific song.

So, on those long, winter days, times when I'm not out sailing, and only working a couple hours a day, instead of watching TV I'll sit down and review style files. It really doesn't take very long to go through 100 or so, weed out the bad ones and save the good ones to a folder, often renaming the style for a specific song title or performer. Before you know it, you have a couple thousand new ones to work with, thereby providing far more diversity in your performances, which IMO, not only makes playing an arranger more fun, but additionally, provides your audiences with a greater variety.

So, Fran, I guess in response to your statement that you "would not" go through 65,000 styles trying to find some decent ones - my question would be "Why Not?" I don't think that's any different that test driving a car, keyboard, amp, guitar, or any other kind of gear. Or, would you just take someone's word that the car, keyboard, amp, etc..., is just fine and let the cards fall where they may?

To me, going through a new batch of styles, and finding some that you like, is almost like getting a new keyboard - but the price is better.

Cheers,

Gary

I use only about 30-40 styles ......they can cover any songs that I play live....btw the Yamaha S950 is an awesome arranger that is doing a super job for my needs at this time,....enjoy what you play.

I think Shin was mentioning about Mid east /balkan ethnic styles with sometimes different time sigs ( like 9/8) and some song specific styles.

Not regular 4/4/ 6/8 or 5/4 US /UK music.