I do agree with your views here Diki, but I'm not entirely sure you know what's going down on the NH circuit these days, regardless of general impessions gleaned from this forum. I know it's not in your usual bailiwick. At my stage of the game, though, NH's are about all what's left before I get hauled off to the spotlights in the sky.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that we don't have a single ballroom, bossa or samba in our repertoire. It's all 50's, 60’s, 70’s pop and rock. The folks from the Glenn Miller era are rapidly thinning out, so those in their eighties now are the early Elvis and onward crowd. That, in NH terms, is staying current.

But even so.it's still a hard sell to a youngster if the majority of styles in an arranger are tailored to the 50 and over crowd.

I've long said that arrangers shouldn't try to do everything. A lot of them (most, nowadays) can radically update their ROM styles, even sounds. Why not allow the store to install the ROM pack they think would best suit their customers? No reason why they can't sell an additional style pack to cover missing genres, but if at least 3/4 of the ROM styles in an arranger were tailored to a 20-year age demographic (16-36, 37-57, etc.) I think a lot more kids would buy into them...

And there's nothing to stop a store updating the ROM if Mom & Pop walk in and might like an arranger with the older stuff in it. Keep all the Ibiza and Deep House stuff off of their arranger, keep the Elvis or bigband stuff off the kid's arranger, much easier sell...

Diki,

Seems to me that Yamaha to a certain extent is doing just that:
providing Sample/Style packs for the PSR750/950 even 64Mb large
(that is the size of a Roland G70 SRX extension board !!) all in software and easy to download. (ridiculously priced but that is another story).
I am getting slowly acquainted with my "new" G70, but I am sure the archiving of files ( UPG, UPS, etc.etc) was done by the Italians in 2003 cause it ain't half chaotic. Crickey.....
As to the subject of this thread and also in view of my first remark I have advised Deane to hang on to his PSR750 and get the PA500 in addition. Apparently he could get one (used) at a very very affordable price. I also advised him never ever to sell his KMA !!! And like you said these days motl keyboards are becoming all the rage and combining two or even three different brands , even secondhand, will offer you stellar results, which might be bad news for those eagerly awaiting the arrival of the Tyros 5 or whatever it will be called..

regards,
John

Thanks John,
I always appreciate your input. I too think Diki is right about the "modernization" of arranger keyboards. But, most of the young crowd prefers the Synths and pure workstations. I have elected to return several of the newer arranger keyboards because the styles were not as useful to me as were those on older arrangers. My guess is if you currently own a really top notch high quality arranger and, like me, you mostly play for the senior citizens it might be wise to hang on to it. Roland is not doing much with arrangers today-I haven't played the BK-9 yet, Korg has already moved toward the more modern sounds, and who knows where Yamaha and Ketron will go in the future.

Deane

Roland are quietly reinventing themselves. The BK-9 has the most forward looking approach of any of the arrangers so far. Easy use of audio loops within an arranger or SMF is something that's new to mass produced arrangers, and, to be fair, it has a HUGE selection of modern dance styles onboard. More Ibiza and House and techno than I could ever use (because I don't use it at all!), and an overall emphasis on more modern stuff.

But none of this counts while it remains stuffed with Latin, Ballroom and 50's and 60's stuff too...

Kids today want a keyboard built for THEM... You look at any modern WS, and there's virtually no arps and grooves in them suitable for oldies music. There's a few smooth jazz patterns, the odd swing, but that's about IT. That's why they love 'em. What self respecting 20 something wants to buy something that is OBVIOUSLY designed for his grandparents?!

But the arranger workflow, tied with a modest arpeggiator is going to be the easiest system for them to use, just as it is the easiest for us. Sure, a TOTL workstation could do bigband or jazz or ballroom MUCH better than an arranger (if you have the talent to play and program it well), but we go with arrangers because it's a lot easier... Same deal for the kids.

But they have to overlook those banks of old fart music (as they see it!) before they can get one. And wonder why most of that ROM is not set up so THEY can use it. Let's be honest, if you were 25 and under, you can use a bare 20% of the styles in any modern arranger, and that's being generous! Who's going to waste their money on that?

But stuff an arranger FULL of modern stuff (and let them buy or download an 'oldies pack' if they want it) and I predict they would fly off the shelves. But we HAVE to lose the banks of grandparent styles! As was pointed out earlier, even NH gigs are becoming less and less ballroom, more and more 60's and 70's...

Time for the arranger manufacturers to ditch the old stuff and put in a LOT more new (70's, 80's, 90's...). And Jeez! Would it KILL ya to include an arpeggiator on a decent arranger?

Because of my market, age groups, my own preferences, etc., I want an arranger that's stuffed with older and traditional styles. I never use the dance, techno, ethnic, rock styles. I'd get run out of the places I work. I've often thought this: Why not offer an arranger that's fully-featured but devoid of any preset voices and styles. Then, let the buyer select (and pay for accordingly) the particular style sets and voices they want? Of course, that's dreaming.

That's basically what I'm shooting at. But obviously, to show a keyboard in a store, you need styles in it. But having say two different sets of styles, old and new, basically fill the entire arranger, I think that it is easy for stores to show the keyboard off in its best light depending on who you are showing to...

I am not sure having us pay for the style sets we want at purchase time is a good idea. The arranger should come filled with styles when we purchase it, as they do now. But the buyer should have a choice of which style Pack he gets, and then the option to purchase the OTHER pack if he wants both...

To a certain extent, some arrangers already use this approach. There are arrangers based on current models that have Oriental styles and soundsets. Roland experimented with having Latin, Oriental and Eastern European variants of the same arranger. I simply feel that, while regional variants is a good thing, an AGE variant is also good marketing. And probably would have a much greater impact on getting a new generation to be interested in music making on an arranger.

There's nothing wrong with the basic form, but just like cars get face lifts to appeal to younger buyers, it's time for arrangers to nip and tuck, lose the flab and the wrinkles, and start wearing a hoody and baggy pants!

Or they are going to go the way of the 'home organ'... Gathering dust in Granny's house, no longer made except as hugely overpriced luxury items. The Tyros is already heading down that street!

Larry and Diki,
I see, and understand, both of your positions. If the manufactures of arranger keyboards are going to attract the younger players they certainly must update the styles. However, the USA is just a very small part of the arranger business and will probably have no impact on what they mfgs decide to do. When we go to other countries we see arrangers in just about all the music stores and being used in various venues. Until these people begin to ask for the more modern American music styles I don't see much hope for that to happen.

However, just like Larry said, I too would be chased out of any place I play if I did not have the styles suitable for the music the seniors really enjoy.

Deane

Several years ago I suggested that AKBs be made with necessary basic functions - editing, etc. - at a BASIC price, and have the manufacturer make the styles available for purchase and DL on-line ... this way the users could purchase whatever styles they NEED or want for gigging or 'home play' ... but I guess this would not be 'cost efficient' - make that 'profitable enough' - for the manufacturers ...
The way it is now they can advertise "hundreds of styles", many, or even most, of which a lot of users will never use ...

I think youngsters in EU countries are just as poorly provided. This isn't merely an American thing I'm trying to get over.

It's a generational thing. Kids are buying bleep machines and budget WS's.. Why? Because the don't come stuffed with foxtrots, bossas and 50's Rock and Roll arps! I guarantee, were you to fill up any of the keyboards they currently DO buy with a ton of granny arps and styles, they would no longer buy them, either!