Another thing that works for me is to play 2-4 instrumentals on straight guitar, and one or two tunes on piano with no accompaniment.

Brings it back to the "I'm really playing" realm.


Russ

Diki why must we fake it? And if they rather hear live then why are so many people hiring DJs for their affair.

John C.

If those audiences ALL would rather hear LIVE, then why are so many DJs and KJs booking most of the American Legions, VFWs, Moose Lodges, Elks and wedding halls? You would think that if their audiences wanted LIVE, those places would all be booking full bands - THEY'RE NOT!

Faking it! Are you kidding me? Oh, I forgot, you consider arranger keyboard players NON-musicians if they utilize all the features such as onboard and homemade style files, vocal harmonizers, instrument effects, etc... Lets see, if I were to use my PSR-3000 as just a piano, and play it strictly as a piano, which I have on some songs that I felt sounded best that way, then I would be a REAL musician. I guess when I was playing my 12-sting Yamaha and using a Roland programmable drum machine, I was faking it. And, I guess I'm really faking it because I add some reverb and EQ to my vocals. I should be singing dry with no effects - then it would be REAL! WELL, BS Charlie Brown! Sometimes you have a way of just pissing people off with your negativity pertaining to damned near every subject or piece of equipment.

I need a Margaretta - See Ya!

Gary

DJ's are not EVER trying to tell the audience 'Look! I'm playing SOME of this..."

But imagine a DJ that turns up, hits 'Play', and then goes to the bar for three hours while the laptop plays his playlist... think he'll ever get a call back?

I am responding to the FACT that, when it comes to solo acts, guitarists out-gig arranger players at least 20-1 (much higher in my area). If you ever wondered why, here it is. Don't shoot the messenger. And if you can't figure out why a venue that can only afford one person prefers a DJ to a karaoke singer (playing a few chords on an arranger), I can't really help you.

Well, I no longer play much guitar, and never played piano, so I guess I'm not a real musician. Woops! It says I am on my tax returns for the past 40 years, and we all know the government doesn't lie, so maybe I am after all.
I PLAY arrangers, not piano. If you don't think arrangers are a legitimate instrument, you may be on the wrong forum! If you feel guilty about using arrangers and feel you are cheating, quit using them.
Most of the "real" musicians I know make the same money as I do, and then divide it four or five ways.
Having said all this, I have to agree with most of what has been brought up recently, concerning the audience perception of what we're doing, the advancement of technology to the point of where what we're doing is not believable, etc. Doesn't mean I have to accept it though!
I don't have to please the world, just enough people who want to listen to me and maybe dance for a while.
I'm swimming upstream, hoping to survive long enough to reach the spawning grounds. Then I truly believe things will be even better! Maybe next time around I'll be a guitarist and get ALL the women instead of just the finest ones.

DonM

Well said, DonM and some very good points indeed.

Mmmm...let's see...where do I begin?

Let's say I play keyboard in a band/orchestra, that plays all instrumental music and the band consists of at least drums, bass, two guitars and me on synthesizer/organ/piano etc..

I'd be playing left chords, with right hand fills, numerous solos, changing patches and using keyboard based sounds, wind sounds, string patches...in other words pads (left hand) and solos (right hand).

If I was the band leader/arranger, I'd be picking the way the music was arranged and in what kind of style or genre, and I'd be making sure everyone was balanced in the mix.

I don't do things much differently when I play solo using an Arranger...I pick the tunes, the arrangement and assign the solos to certain instruments, and I'm pretty sure most other arranger players on SZ and other forums, do about the same, so essentially we are keyboardists, and, the last time I checked the dictionary, that makes us "musicians".

Since the instrument has gone through some maturing, and has grown out of the boom-ticky-ticky, cheesy sounding early Casios and Bontempi's, I have always considered the arranger an "electric powered musical instrument" in it's own right...just as legit as other electrically powered keyboard based instruments as a Hammond, most Synthesizers, a Fender Rhodes, a Wurlitzer EP-200, Yamaha CP-80, digital pianos and others. In fact, it is quite a bit more powerful than some of these instruments in that it can duplicate the sound of all of them, including a few of them at the same time. Pretty heady stuff, when you think of it.

I played instrumental music, using an Arranger Keyboard, in a very high end restaurant for over 11 years straight...other musicians, mostly keyboardists and guitar players, who played there before me, lasted no longer than 3 or 4 weeks, so I must have been doing something right (I also got more pay), and I must have been using the right tool for the job.

And that's the kicker...an Arranger Keyboard is just another tool in the keyboard player's tool box. Is it a valid instrument? I would hope so. I was advertised as the "House Keyboard Player" and I made a fairly good rep in my local area, enough to assist me in my work as a Yamaha clinician, meaning I knew what I was talking about regarding arranger keyboards, and I also made a very lucrative living doing something I simply loved to do, which was playing music.

I most always played using styles, and I worked hard at putting my own stamp on tunes by editing my styles, and I had the occasional "player" who quipped that I "wasn't playing ALL the parts" and my reply was, "Do you play all the parts (drums, bass, guitar etc.) when you play keys in your band? I just happened to have brought my own players with me."

I'm not that insecure about my playing ability on an arranger to allow anyone to make me feel less of a musician because I play an instrument that they maybe: (1) Do not really understand. (2) Aren't able to play with the same proficiency as I.

Generally, it usually comes out that I'm playing steady and they aren't. I'm working. They're not. Maybe they are a little annoyed? I don't really care.

There were two other pro arranger players in my area, (one just passed away last week) and we have always been working steady well over the past 20 years, doing restaurant work, corporate dinners, wedding suppers and occasionally mixing it up by using another performer (vocalist/guitar/violinist) along with our arranger playing.

Like me, these guys worked hard to make their arranger playing interesting and enjoyable to listen to. We were always adding new material, and helping each other find interesting arrangements of popular tunes (we all read music). Now that I've retired, only one guy is playing, and at 72, I believe he is packing it in soon as well(he was Glen Campbell's road piano player for several years-many moons ago). Plus, the venues are changing as are the listeners. Still, we are, and will always, consider ourselves "musicians".

I'm currently working on a few ideas and may get back into some sort of gigging...I really don't know. I am thoroughly enjoying the freedom of retirement. Time will tell.

Sorry about the really l-o-n-g post, friends...I'm not sleeping well tonight as the temperatures are high as is the humidity (and I haven't got an air con yet) so I'm taking my restlessness out in my post. Thanks for reading this far. Now, back to bed and another attempt at sleep.

Ian

Oh, before I forget...HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY, Don!

Thanks Ian, and it's good to see you back on the air again!
DonM

All I know is I play arranger and sing along with it and I'm almost busier than I want to be.

Joe

I don't see the wisdom in knocking arranger players on an arranger forum. If only piano players are true musicians, I'll bet there's a piano forum where such things may be better suited for discussion.

Is anyone actually READING my posts..?! For starters, I have NEVER said word one about whether anyone is a 'REAL' musician or not. You are projecting your own insecurity onto this conversation if that's what you think this is about!

All I have posted about is the audience's PERCEPTION of reality or lack thereof.

And I play arrangers 100% out in public, whether solo or in a full band. I certainly have no problems feeling guilty about using them! But I also don't have a problem acknowledging what we commonly see in audience attitudes when we use them solo or duo, etc.. Back in the 80's, a full band coming out of a few keyboards was a novelty, karaoke had yet to be a common form of entertainment in the US, and acts like Howard Jones or Thomas Dolby were ruling the airwaves with little more than a Fairlight and a rack of other keyboards..!

But technology has caught up to us to the point that the common man can do what we do (or what he THINKS we do!) himself on his laptop or iPad, and all of a sudden we find guitarists (who play something the common man KNOWS he can't do!) ruling the roost in the solo market.

Now, don't get me wrong... there IS still a market for what we do (we are still making a living, aren't we?) but as many point out, it's a lot harder these days, and we often find ourselves doubling as DJ's (which most guitarist acts don't tend to do), something we never had to do much, in the past.

All I'm trying to point out is how this may nave happened, and what audience perception is of us, and how we got here...

Nobody is any LESS of a musician for using an arranger, but audiences' PERCEPTION of our musicality (or lack of it!) has taken a step backwards, despite the reality of it all.

The fact that arrangers have gotten better and better, and often truly approach (or even use!) real audio hasn't helped, IMO! As they sound more and more like the real thing, the audience gets closer and closer to thinking they ARE the real thing - only a karaoke track, not a real band! The only way to persuade them that you are still playing is to make sure they SEE you playing your butt off.

I personally don't like putting laptops, iPads, books, music stands (if I can help it) or other gear on top of the keyboard. Make them SEE that the large majority of what they are hearing IS what you are playing and you can make that reconnection. Strip away EVERY style or SMF part that you can play, strip away every OTHER Part that isn't ABSOLUTELY necessary to supporting the groove, and you get a chance to reconnect with them.

But I'm afraid the old arranger paradigm of holding down a chord and playing the melody fairly basically (even if you do change sounds around each section) no longer commands the attention it used to. We need to work harder and harder to unconvince the audience we are simply a karaoke act...