http://www.youtube.com/embed/kPvciIdDZAE

Bernie sent this to me – great. Great for laughs and for learning. Learning? What a keyboard player should do when he plays a Mp3. Move around, jump into the audience (the video shows you some perks) and put some showmanship into your performance.

If you are playing a Midi File you can do the same thing using your own mic. The guy moves around great; even with the ladies.

Yeah, easily said. I never had the guts to do that stuff when I played. If I had the chance to do it all over again it would be part of my act.

Recently I watched a video of myself playing at a nursing home; I could have passed for one of the inmates.

Life is good, John C.

Excellent enjoy that!! Thanx

John
You are too modest. You have very good stage presence.

Bernie

Until recently, I used to put on a style file that was nothing more than a bass with finger snaps, pick up my wireless, handheld mic, and walk through the audience singing "Fever" to the ladies. THEY LOVED IT! I have a new wireless system, but haven't had the time to do the installation of the receiver and power pack.

And the ability to move around the keyboard, stand up once in a while during the middle of a song, and never loose contact with the mic position is another example of the advantage of using a headset mic. You can have a lot of fun on stage, especially when you're in motion - it can be contagious.

Cheers,

Gary

Gary ... that sounds great, but how did the bass notes change to match the chords of the song while you were off stage singing to the ladies?

It didn't change - but I was the only one that knew it. The style I used was originally for the Pink Panther theme song, so most of the first variation was nothing more than a finger snap and light bass sound.

Usually, towards the end of the song, I would walk back to the keyboard, change to a higher level variation, do the last verse, and finish the song, often to a standing ovation. I loved doing that song in that manner, and there was no question that ladies in the audiences loved it as well.

Unfortunately, some individuals decided that when I was doing this song, everything was automatic, kinda like Karaoke, therefore, every song, as far as they were concerned, was nothing more than Karaoke. Then, and I love this part, there are some that sincerely believed it was not me singing, and that I was lip-syncing the songs. I was confronted by a middle-aged couple one night that were sitting at a table just 15 to 20 feet away from me, and while I was singing "An Evening In Roma" the guy said to the other couple, "He's not really singing - he's lip-synching the song." Now, as you know, I work pretty damned hard at learning and perfecting songs I sing in ALL languages. It difficult learning to sing an Italian song, in Italian, and not having the ability to speak the language, and takes a lot of time and practice. So this guy's statement really pissed me off.

Towards the end of the song, while the 8-beat Adriatic style was still playing, I said "Now, it just came to my attention that a few audience members think it's not me playing or singing and that everything is prerecorded music - it's not. So, this is for the lovely ladies at Table #1 that are accompanied by a couple old codgers." At this point I ended the Italian song, then immediately switched styles to a great 6/8-beat and went into a two-song, Elvis medley consisting of "The Wonder Of You and Can't Help Falling In Love With You." The ladies loved it, the guys with them stood and applauded, danced with the ladies, and when the night ended one of the men came up to me and said "Wow! I would never have believed that it wasn't prerecorded music and you were just lip-synching - that's incredible." He also asked me to email him a copy of my schedule so he and his friends could be at the other public locations when I performed.

Bottom line: The more you can interact with the audiences, the better those audiences will accept you and your performances. From my perspective, an OMB entertainer is just that - an entertainer, much more so than a musician.



Gary

The minute you step away from playing the keyboard, and go out front while the backing (in ANY form continues), you open the door to the karaoke label. It's hard enough to persuade today's karaoke crazed kids (of all ages!) that you are playing anything at all even when you DON'T go out front, especially when they hear bass, drums, guitars, strings, horns and everything else from one person, but walk away from a playing arranger, you deserve everything you get..!

I have a sneaky feeling why today, guitarists are very successful at getting the solo jobs. Other than a looper, perhaps, it's still basically them, and their guitar. No gimmicks, no karaoke, no excuses. I believe the audiences are more responsive to something they can believe in.

Back in the 80's, and 90's, when MIDI was in its infancy, when audiences hadn't seen it a million times before, yes, we sort of ruled the roost. But technology caught up with the audience... they can do much of what we did themselves, now. Anyone can press 'Play' on a cheap iPod, and have pro sounding backup. They can open a laptop app and have BIAB or other more user friendly backing apps accompany their singing.

But there is no shortcut to playing a guitar! Put a guitar in the hands of a pro and an audience member, utterly different results. Put an arranger (playing SMF's) in the hands of a beginner, and he will often sound IDENTICAL to the pro, if the pro uses a full sequence (many do). The only difference would be the singing, and just about ANYONE can sing!

We got lazy, we painted ourselves into a corner, and now, the only way we can distinguish ourselves is by gimcrack showmanship, not musical talent! Our audience caught up with us, and left us nowhere to go. But gimmicks... Kind of wish I'd learned guitar better!

Well, Diki, I agree pretty much with everything you just posted, with one exception - "just about ANYONE can sing!" Or maybe you should have clarified that statement to say "Just about ANYONE thinks they can sing!" Everyone that ever interviewed for American Idol, America's Got Talent, Briton's Got Talent, etc..., all sincerely believed they could sing. Most couldn't carry a tune in a 5-gallon bucket. I've met a lot of have guitar will travel entertainers that are in that category as well. They can sing a couple songs well, while the remainder of their vocal repertoire just plain sucks. The only reason most get hired, at least anywhere I've been, is mainly because they work cheap. And, from what I've seen during the past few years, the number of OMB arranger keyboard players working the restaurant, nite-club/bar circuit is dwindling, probably because there are just not many of us left - anywhere. I'd venture a guess there are at least 200 bars, restaurants and nite-clubs in the Baltimore metropolitan area that have some sort of musical entertainment most nights of the week. And most, not all, are either KJ or DJ, or a single with a guitar. Duos and trios are almost non-existent now, and there may be a half-dozen arranger keyboard players working as OMBs - that's it. I remember when there are two dozen guys in Little Italy alone that were piano-bar player/singers. Now, there may be two and they only perform weekends at best. Many years ago, I was one of those have guitar will travel guys - and I'm damned glad I no longer am. Diki, you're still pretty young, so you should have no trouble picking up a good 12-string and playing the bar/nite-club/restaurant circuit.

Cheers,

Gary

... fortunately for you one of the 'old codgers' didn't get up and punch you in the nose ...

I admit to using an SMF for "Mack The Knife" and "NY NY" - among a few others - and would love to get in front of the KB to sing those songs ... but as Diki said, I don't want the audience to think EVERYTHING I play is pre-recorded ...

Bit more competition round my area than you might think. Some very talented guitarists working the club and restaurant scene.

And, let's be real... You do a grand job, but how many of the user demos here didn't make you cringe the minute they sang (often earlier!)? Whole LOT of people have higher opinions of their own playing than other might give them (were they not members on a forum together!). TBH, I know of more good singers that have regular jobs than I do of pros. Singing is the last refuge of 'natural talent' left in this technological age.

And, I'm sorry, but the miute you sit down at a keyboard and more than just a piano or Rhodes sound comes out, the minute you have bass and drums and some guitars going on, don't kid yourself. Your audience doesn't care SQUAT whether you use an arranger or an SMF. You are giving them far too much credit! All they know is they can SEE you aren't playing it all. They know karaoke when they see it....

Diki is right. One of the reasons I NEVER use an arranger unless I have to is the number of times a customer came up to me and said," do you have (XYZ)song"?

This sometimes happens when the customer is looking directly at my hands and seeing the notes and chords being played.

My latest job is a cocktail hour, 5 to 7 PM, 5 nights, using an ancient Clavinova, with none of the auto features.

The owner wants nylon guitar with instrumentals and straight piano. The normal stuff is acoustic guitar playing "three chorders"...no arranger players in this market at all (except for me...occasionally).

For me, versatility is the key. And, knowing LOTS and LOTS
of a wide variety of types of music.


R.

A lot of truth being spoken in the above posts..

If you want to be known as a keyboard player...play the keyboard..don't ever walk away from the keys and sing to pre recorded music...period!!

I would suggest play a few songs live (only)..maybe add a drum pattern...remember once you go to full sequencer or arranger play, there is no going back to .."look I am playing for real".

If you want to showcase vocals..just sing to laptop..but be prepared to be labeled a "karaoke singer"...that is pretty accurate..

I would rather have a decent vocalist sing while playing , even basic chords...for that legit performance.. That is why the guitarist comes off as legit..

Likewise an average singer , with better playing skills will be even more successful

Personally, I enjoy mostly just playing left hand bass, piano and a color sound with drums..and when I can ..my average singing

My second choice would be playing over SMF...with many parts muted..

My third choice would be arranger play...mostly for request like tangos, rhumbas, etc..and a request that I do not know well, and fullness of arranger can make it work..

My preferred first option I can play all night long...same with my second choice...
I would not want to use arranger all night long..I need more versatility ..

One more example..how to destroy your "band" image...and this is from personal experience the last year or two..
I have been slowly but surely trying to leave the band I work with....but not leave them cold without a workable solution..(I am hard to replace) ...I tried to warn them of a couple "bad" habits...singing to a commercial "karaoke" song while being booked as a band...I actually step off stage when they do this..."karaoke " singers are a dime a dozen, and there is no gain..when you can perform other tunes as a band..
And now a big no no...Take a gig that we do as a trio..drop the only key player in the band...fake keys with a non player that can't pick out a "C".....to recorded tracks with the absent players parts and play...Game over..you lose all credibility..Just another Karaoke act

I almost feel like skipping my remaining two months at the CrabTrap..yes the same venue where they faked the audience..

I am so much looking ahead..to my solo gigs..the way I want to play..

Fran

Just "ran into the band" on Sat. Did my annual run to the Wildwood ribfest and stopped by the Elks for a bit. Said hello, asked about you, and noticed the new guy--lots of stuff !! Keyboard, BK7M, Laptop.
Stayed for a bit and then headed off, came back for their last set. No one but me and my wife noticed but your right, it was total Kareoke. Is that a new girl they have? Your male vocalist was standing behind the BK5 and the new guy was seated behind his rig. Didn't look like either were doing much playing. But its so loud and crowded out there that people still danced and no one complained, such is the business these days. The thing that is amazing me is every group is doing it and their all starting to sound alike.
Diki's right, at least a guitar player with backing is playing something real people can see so they ignore the rest.
We'll be out to see your finale at the Trap.

From what I see here in Dallas, at bars and restaurants that have solo and dou acts, they are all guitar/singer combinations mostly playing acoustic versions of 60's through current hits. No tracks. I have heard some guitar players using loopers making multiple parts, percussive effects and bass lines. Cool stuff. It's a great time to be a guitar player.

I hardly see keyboard players working these places, never an arranger player. Like Diki said, we had our day back in the 80's-90's. Too bad I wasn't playing keys back then

who cares about bar gigs?....there is "so much other work out there" Weddings, Birthday, Dinner dances, Anniversaries, Retirement, Adult communities, people are people wherever you go and they will ALWAYS have these parties and someone has to accommodate them with music,.....why not let it be you...? It surly can be that way ONLY if you can show them that YOUR Product is BETTER the the rest.

Gotta agree with DNJ on the Bar Gigs - I no longer want to put up with drunks, late nights and low pay, which is what the bar gigs offer pretty much nationwide.

Gary

Donny and Gary- I agree, I played in many as a drummer in working bands. But the problem is that whenever a potential client contacts me regarding a private party, they always ask were they can hear us play. It would nice to tell them, you can here us at the XYZ bar the on Wed nights... To have one regular place would be great, I think. I guess that kind of work is a thing of the 1900's.

There really aren't any 'bar gigs' left much nowadays, at least in my area. Every bar is a restaurant. You do the early shift, you are playing to diners. You do the late shift, you are playing to diners AND drinkers. You do the late late shift... well, no-one's hiring a senior citizen with an arranger for those! Straight ahead rock bands for those...

I guess I'm kind of lucky. My area is mostly a yuppies and their families kind of spot. Not really a senior citizen community like further south in FL. So 'oldies', ballroom, Latin are right out. 70's and upwards, precious little 60's and earlier. Which, given my age, sits fine by me. And most of it sits pretty well with the kids, especially if you pick the better stuff from their era and play that too. Most of them are far happier listening to us play a Clapton tune than trying to do some Usher!

Plenty of alternative rock and pop nowadays that can be played by older musicians without seeming silly. John Mayer, Zack Brown Band, Drive By Truckers, things like that.

You just start to sound silly trying to do hiphop. Leave it to the DJ.

I often wonder way we try to set an image on stage that we are not. I agree with the post here that say, “They could care less”.

Strictly my opinion:
1-Live playing ---
2-Playing with background ----
3-Karaoke ---
4-Original recordings

Why not announce that the next song or set will be one of the above. I feel the majority of people in this day and age feel that you are one of the above no matter what you are doing. For this reason why not lead the audience with the truth.

I was one of the purest who believed that live playing was the only way to go while other keyboard players were giving people a variety of all types of music. Today I would be using 1, 2, and 4 above. As much as I would like to sound like one of the original recordings I know I fall short. And if I were to do it better it would make a difference only to me.

When wireless first came out a band member would bring the mike to the audience, never giving them full control. You sing while you’re out there and share the vocal with a person that you feel won’t bring everything down.

It is my opinion that being honest and announcing what and how you are performing the next song, set, or whatever will bring a bigger return. It will also release a performer from unneeded stress. If I was to hire a musician for a mixed group; like a wedding or company dance, I would want a musician that would please everyone. -- So it would be a Live player who used background music, who worked with Karaoke, and played original recordings.

No ego here, I just love to ramble, John C.

Actually, what I said was

My point being, they CAN tell. They just don't care HOW you are faking it, they just know when you are. And they prefer to listen to musicians actually playing than karaoke, given a choice.

Another thing that works for me is to play 2-4 instrumentals on straight guitar, and one or two tunes on piano with no accompaniment.

Brings it back to the "I'm really playing" realm.


Russ

Diki why must we fake it? And if they rather hear live then why are so many people hiring DJs for their affair.

John C.

If those audiences ALL would rather hear LIVE, then why are so many DJs and KJs booking most of the American Legions, VFWs, Moose Lodges, Elks and wedding halls? You would think that if their audiences wanted LIVE, those places would all be booking full bands - THEY'RE NOT!

Faking it! Are you kidding me? Oh, I forgot, you consider arranger keyboard players NON-musicians if they utilize all the features such as onboard and homemade style files, vocal harmonizers, instrument effects, etc... Lets see, if I were to use my PSR-3000 as just a piano, and play it strictly as a piano, which I have on some songs that I felt sounded best that way, then I would be a REAL musician. I guess when I was playing my 12-sting Yamaha and using a Roland programmable drum machine, I was faking it. And, I guess I'm really faking it because I add some reverb and EQ to my vocals. I should be singing dry with no effects - then it would be REAL! WELL, BS Charlie Brown! Sometimes you have a way of just pissing people off with your negativity pertaining to damned near every subject or piece of equipment.

I need a Margaretta - See Ya!

Gary

DJ's are not EVER trying to tell the audience 'Look! I'm playing SOME of this..."

But imagine a DJ that turns up, hits 'Play', and then goes to the bar for three hours while the laptop plays his playlist... think he'll ever get a call back?

I am responding to the FACT that, when it comes to solo acts, guitarists out-gig arranger players at least 20-1 (much higher in my area). If you ever wondered why, here it is. Don't shoot the messenger. And if you can't figure out why a venue that can only afford one person prefers a DJ to a karaoke singer (playing a few chords on an arranger), I can't really help you.

Well, I no longer play much guitar, and never played piano, so I guess I'm not a real musician. Woops! It says I am on my tax returns for the past 40 years, and we all know the government doesn't lie, so maybe I am after all.
I PLAY arrangers, not piano. If you don't think arrangers are a legitimate instrument, you may be on the wrong forum! If you feel guilty about using arrangers and feel you are cheating, quit using them.
Most of the "real" musicians I know make the same money as I do, and then divide it four or five ways.
Having said all this, I have to agree with most of what has been brought up recently, concerning the audience perception of what we're doing, the advancement of technology to the point of where what we're doing is not believable, etc. Doesn't mean I have to accept it though!
I don't have to please the world, just enough people who want to listen to me and maybe dance for a while.
I'm swimming upstream, hoping to survive long enough to reach the spawning grounds. Then I truly believe things will be even better! Maybe next time around I'll be a guitarist and get ALL the women instead of just the finest ones.

DonM

Well said, DonM and some very good points indeed.

Mmmm...let's see...where do I begin?

Let's say I play keyboard in a band/orchestra, that plays all instrumental music and the band consists of at least drums, bass, two guitars and me on synthesizer/organ/piano etc..

I'd be playing left chords, with right hand fills, numerous solos, changing patches and using keyboard based sounds, wind sounds, string patches...in other words pads (left hand) and solos (right hand).

If I was the band leader/arranger, I'd be picking the way the music was arranged and in what kind of style or genre, and I'd be making sure everyone was balanced in the mix.

I don't do things much differently when I play solo using an Arranger...I pick the tunes, the arrangement and assign the solos to certain instruments, and I'm pretty sure most other arranger players on SZ and other forums, do about the same, so essentially we are keyboardists, and, the last time I checked the dictionary, that makes us "musicians".

Since the instrument has gone through some maturing, and has grown out of the boom-ticky-ticky, cheesy sounding early Casios and Bontempi's, I have always considered the arranger an "electric powered musical instrument" in it's own right...just as legit as other electrically powered keyboard based instruments as a Hammond, most Synthesizers, a Fender Rhodes, a Wurlitzer EP-200, Yamaha CP-80, digital pianos and others. In fact, it is quite a bit more powerful than some of these instruments in that it can duplicate the sound of all of them, including a few of them at the same time. Pretty heady stuff, when you think of it.

I played instrumental music, using an Arranger Keyboard, in a very high end restaurant for over 11 years straight...other musicians, mostly keyboardists and guitar players, who played there before me, lasted no longer than 3 or 4 weeks, so I must have been doing something right (I also got more pay), and I must have been using the right tool for the job.

And that's the kicker...an Arranger Keyboard is just another tool in the keyboard player's tool box. Is it a valid instrument? I would hope so. I was advertised as the "House Keyboard Player" and I made a fairly good rep in my local area, enough to assist me in my work as a Yamaha clinician, meaning I knew what I was talking about regarding arranger keyboards, and I also made a very lucrative living doing something I simply loved to do, which was playing music.

I most always played using styles, and I worked hard at putting my own stamp on tunes by editing my styles, and I had the occasional "player" who quipped that I "wasn't playing ALL the parts" and my reply was, "Do you play all the parts (drums, bass, guitar etc.) when you play keys in your band? I just happened to have brought my own players with me."

I'm not that insecure about my playing ability on an arranger to allow anyone to make me feel less of a musician because I play an instrument that they maybe: (1) Do not really understand. (2) Aren't able to play with the same proficiency as I.

Generally, it usually comes out that I'm playing steady and they aren't. I'm working. They're not. Maybe they are a little annoyed? I don't really care.

There were two other pro arranger players in my area, (one just passed away last week) and we have always been working steady well over the past 20 years, doing restaurant work, corporate dinners, wedding suppers and occasionally mixing it up by using another performer (vocalist/guitar/violinist) along with our arranger playing.

Like me, these guys worked hard to make their arranger playing interesting and enjoyable to listen to. We were always adding new material, and helping each other find interesting arrangements of popular tunes (we all read music). Now that I've retired, only one guy is playing, and at 72, I believe he is packing it in soon as well(he was Glen Campbell's road piano player for several years-many moons ago). Plus, the venues are changing as are the listeners. Still, we are, and will always, consider ourselves "musicians".

I'm currently working on a few ideas and may get back into some sort of gigging...I really don't know. I am thoroughly enjoying the freedom of retirement. Time will tell.

Sorry about the really l-o-n-g post, friends...I'm not sleeping well tonight as the temperatures are high as is the humidity (and I haven't got an air con yet) so I'm taking my restlessness out in my post. Thanks for reading this far. Now, back to bed and another attempt at sleep.

Ian

Oh, before I forget...HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY, Don!

Thanks Ian, and it's good to see you back on the air again!
DonM

All I know is I play arranger and sing along with it and I'm almost busier than I want to be.

Joe

I don't see the wisdom in knocking arranger players on an arranger forum. If only piano players are true musicians, I'll bet there's a piano forum where such things may be better suited for discussion.

Is anyone actually READING my posts..?! For starters, I have NEVER said word one about whether anyone is a 'REAL' musician or not. You are projecting your own insecurity onto this conversation if that's what you think this is about!

All I have posted about is the audience's PERCEPTION of reality or lack thereof.

And I play arrangers 100% out in public, whether solo or in a full band. I certainly have no problems feeling guilty about using them! But I also don't have a problem acknowledging what we commonly see in audience attitudes when we use them solo or duo, etc.. Back in the 80's, a full band coming out of a few keyboards was a novelty, karaoke had yet to be a common form of entertainment in the US, and acts like Howard Jones or Thomas Dolby were ruling the airwaves with little more than a Fairlight and a rack of other keyboards..!

But technology has caught up to us to the point that the common man can do what we do (or what he THINKS we do!) himself on his laptop or iPad, and all of a sudden we find guitarists (who play something the common man KNOWS he can't do!) ruling the roost in the solo market.

Now, don't get me wrong... there IS still a market for what we do (we are still making a living, aren't we?) but as many point out, it's a lot harder these days, and we often find ourselves doubling as DJ's (which most guitarist acts don't tend to do), something we never had to do much, in the past.

All I'm trying to point out is how this may nave happened, and what audience perception is of us, and how we got here...

Nobody is any LESS of a musician for using an arranger, but audiences' PERCEPTION of our musicality (or lack of it!) has taken a step backwards, despite the reality of it all.

The fact that arrangers have gotten better and better, and often truly approach (or even use!) real audio hasn't helped, IMO! As they sound more and more like the real thing, the audience gets closer and closer to thinking they ARE the real thing - only a karaoke track, not a real band! The only way to persuade them that you are still playing is to make sure they SEE you playing your butt off.

I personally don't like putting laptops, iPads, books, music stands (if I can help it) or other gear on top of the keyboard. Make them SEE that the large majority of what they are hearing IS what you are playing and you can make that reconnection. Strip away EVERY style or SMF part that you can play, strip away every OTHER Part that isn't ABSOLUTELY necessary to supporting the groove, and you get a chance to reconnect with them.

But I'm afraid the old arranger paradigm of holding down a chord and playing the melody fairly basically (even if you do change sounds around each section) no longer commands the attention it used to. We need to work harder and harder to unconvince the audience we are simply a karaoke act...