Full details here

Enjoy

Bill

Got to admit, it drives me crazy watching someone have to take their hands away from playing to get the SA expression stuff triggered using the switches... It basically means you CAN'T do it if you have to change a chord there as well.

Can't you use foot switches for that stuff? That's what I'd be doing it with, anyway...

Bill,

Marty also does a nice job this old tune, Au Privave, by Charlie Parker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq5q4vb7z3g

Superbly played, as usual.

Ian

then they should use an Audya with Ajamsonic

Hey Lee, are you as happy with your Audya (with Ajamsonic?) as Henni is with his?

I can't say I have ever seen a more enthusiastic supporter of the Audya than Henni. He is nearly bursting with admiration for the instrument.

Have you done any recordings with yours?

Ian

That is really nice stuff ...

ian,

i don't own Ajamsonic
i love my Audya too
so much that I own 2 Audya's

it is the BEST arranger FOR ME, for my music
sounds great through my PA, so real, so punchy, loving it !!!

Two Audya's...how cool is that?

Lee, if I gigged as often as I did several years ago, I quite likely would have two Tyros4's...one set up at home, and one in the gig bag ready for the job. I could prepare stuff on the "at home" instrument, and load it in the 2nd keyboard via flash-drive at the venue.

Right now, one is plenty. Like you, I feel I have the proper tool for my use...the Tyros4 is certainly not the "perfect" arranger, but it is closer to being perfect for my needs than any other type, regardless of model or brand.

Like Marty above, I do not activate SA with foot-switches...I use the buttons, and assign one pedal for sustain, and the other is a Yamaha FC-7 Volume pedal, the latter being indispensable for more control over RH voice expression. I find I get enough control over SA/SA2 voices with playing technique and/or the wheels, as well as the buttons.

I also use the sustain pedal with my left foot as I find my right foot is best for using the volume pedal...too many years on organs to break the habit.

Do you use a volume pedal, or, more accurately, what pedals do you use and how are they assigned?

Are both your Audya keyboard versions? Have you considered adding Ajamsonic?

Ian

PS...I like this little showcase by Marty as well...nice subtle use of the T4's vocoder at the beginning. He is a very talented player who would sound great on any brand or model of arranger keyboard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xztUzUKEVnk

Been a while, Ian. Welcome back.

As I've pointed out when it comes to bends as well as switch activated SA2 actions, if you listen to REAL music played by real musicians, it's amazing how often those performance 'tricks' or idiomatic playing occur EXACTLY at chord boundaries. Bends are used to go across transitions probably at least as much as in the middle of chord sections. They form a way to join up one section with another, or to emphasize the change...

And this is EXACTLY when you can't use them on an arranger! Your LH absolutely HAS to make that chord change, no matter how much you'd like to bend or hit the SA switch. In fact, it's easy to test... Record just the backing. Now play the solo on the top of it. Note how often you play a bend or SA action when the chord is changing.

In fact, if you listen to Martin's fiddle playing later in the first example, when he is making 1/4 note chord changes, he is incapable of using the switch at all... and the performance realism suffers much for it. This is why this stuff is best left to footswitches. You can do them whenever you want to, not whenever your LH can spare the time...

BTW, nice hijack attempt by the Audya camp, but if I'm not mistaken, Audya has no SA/DNC/SN stuff at all, right? LOL

BTW, Ian... ever played piano? THREE pedals.

You probably handled those OK with just two feet, right? No reason to cripple your musical intent for the sake of not putting another pedal down there.

Personally, having come from an organ background, I've had 25 pedals at my feet! 26 if you count the swell pedal! I honestly don't think an FC-7, a couple of sustain pedals and a volume pedal is too difficult to run compared to walking a bassline while you play..!

Thanks for the welcome, Diki.

I'm not too concerned about not making the bends right at chord changes...getting them when I do manage, is fine for me. I've realized that my way of playing the arranger does require a bit of compromise, and I'm comfortable using the foot-switch and swell pedal solely for sustain and volume.

If I want a more perfect series of bends, quite likely during recording, I will just record the accompaniment first, and then overdub the right hand.

Occasionally I used to use the volume pedal for bends on my arranger (one of the Electones I owned had this option as well as my old Polymoog) but I'm more than happy with using the instrument's SA/SA2 voices as I do presently, which is by using the buttons/wheels and playing technique. The SA buttons do allow for a tiny bit of setting up a bend prior to a chord change, and they also allow for a quick (and very short) chromatic run, which is easier than doing it with the wheels. I really love the latter effect...very realistic if used judiciously.

In any case, I plan on doing much more recording, now that I have a lot of extra time, and much of it will involve some degree of multi-tracking...since I won't be as concerned about reproducing the tunes "live" since I've stopped gigging, I can really go to town on the RH parts. Man, that volume pedal (affecting only the RH) sure makes a huge difference, especially when I am playing with a guitarist or vocalist...however, getting used to using my left foot on the sustain took a bit of adjustment, but now it is second nature.

Since I've fully retired (I was still doing occasional part time clinics) I am enjoying a very new sense of freedom with playing...much of it used to involve rehearsing special tunes for clinics and showcases and preparing for "live" gigs that featured a certain genre or playlist of tunes. Now when I sit down to play or record, I can choose any direction I want. It may seem like a small thing, but in my case, it sure feels good.

I'm planning on expanding my repertoire with synthy type music, a genre I used to utilize when I was working at the CBC Radio station many years ago. I will enjoy making use of the T4's awesome Motif based synth patches, and being able to layer up to three will certainly give me plenty of colors to experiment with...I can use the included PC editor if I want to do some radical changes, but mostly I only need filtering and ADSR and that is available on-board the instrument.

I don't mind the hi-jack (hey, nothing new on SZ )...the Audya sounds pretty good...it's certainly not on my list of arrangers to own, and I seriously doubt if I'll ever get to actually play one as no dealer anywhere near me will touch them. I did hope to try the new Roland BK-9, but no sign of one yet at the local Long & McQuade store. One of the sales guys will call me if they get one.

I honestly have no GAS anymore...I am totally content with the T4 and I've really made it my own with plenty of edited styles, and lots of cool custom samples...mine has the 1 gig memory upgrade. I suspect it will quite likely be my last arranger purchase, as I can't envision anything I'd like to add to it... perhaps a chord sequencer would be nice, but it isn't really necessary and I am used to not having one. I wonder if Yamaha will ever add one to a future arranger? Surely, with Korg and Roland having them, they will have to keep up.

Now that I have retired, I'm actually wondering where in the hell I found the time to work...ha ha!

Ian

Just in response to a question above, AUDYA does have SA/DNC/SN stuff = VCE (Voice Character Emulation) and in the AJAMSONIC version, it is stepped up even further with VCE-2. In VCE-2, A lot of articulation can either be controlled by the user (velocity, keys pressed before/after, length of time a note(s) is held down), or in some cases, it is handled automatically when applying the appropriate articulation to each voice where needed.

As you can see, there are no dedicated buttons to distract the user when playing, or that require the user to stop playing for a short period in order to activate. All the player does is play ... and AUDYA will do the rest. This makes it possible to 'articulate' even between chord changes and other difficult circumstances too.

Just thought I'd clarify the question asked above with regards to AUDYA.

What I enjoyed about Martin's playing is that he really makes use of the many facilities in his chosen arranger. He doesn't just pick a style, and then play simple right hand melodies over it (although, there's certainly nothing wrong with that), but he utilizes the arranger's strengths and features to provide an even more "interesting" performance. Like several other players on SZ, he has obviously taken the time to explore his keyboard to great depth.

One of the OP's criticisms of the Arranger is the alleged repetitive nature of style play, and although I haven't had the pleasure of hearing any examples of Bill's playing (without styles) to illustrate his preferred method's non-repetitive effectiveness, I have to say Martin Harris's integration of styles within his musical arrangements tend to draw in, and keep, the listener's involvement.

One thing for sure, I appreciate Bill's posting of these links...many of these tunes are new to me, and Martin's wonderfully clever use of this particular arranger's features, his emotive and skillful playing, and his inventive musical interpretations are definitely an inspiration to me, if not the rest of my fellow arranger players on SZ, regardless of the model or brand of instrument they have chosen.

Thanks Bill...very enjoyable, indeed.

Ian

Hi Ian

Glad to see you back now that you have eased into a full life of leisure.

To demonstrate between a live bass play and an arranger style here is a video from the late 80s featuring Curt Prina on the Wersi Spectra, (Judging from the lines it was done using a VHS recorder (That’s got the young un’s confused) and its own mike) turn the bass up and see how he weaves the bass line into the song which is something a repetitive style just cannot do. (And that includes styles that include looped audio loops)

Enjoy

Bill

Ahhh, yes, Bill...bass pedals certainly add a higher degree of control...I used them on my Hammond, especially so when I played in a duo with a guitarist/vocalist, and later we added a drummer. Not quite as flexible as I would have liked when used with the earlier drum machines, but the ones in today's arrangers offer better fills with much more variety. I also taught bass pedal technique when I worked as an Electone instructor for Yamaha Canada, so I can manage them fairly well.

However, I'm content to get along without bass pedals for now. I create/edit my styles to work over 8 to 16 bars (some with 32 bars)often using an invaluable program made especially for me by Michael Bedesem, called "StyleAdjust" which gives me incredible control over the note values of individual style parts and consequently, my personal styles tend to be much less repetitive than the factory ones.

Today's arrangers also allow for so much more style editing power within their own Style Editors/Creators as Henni and Diki have professed with their Ketron and Roland arrangers respectively, so players, who dig deeper into their instrument's features, can individualize their performances and put their own stamp on their music.

Nevertheless, I haven't ruled out bass pedals altogether, especially since my rig is set up more permanently, and I may look into a 25-note unit in the future...perhaps after I have basked a little longer in the comfort of retirement.

Again, thanks for posting Marty's new tunes. Both he and Peter Baartmanns have always been an inspiration for me. Another favorite has been Michel Voncken who always puts out a high energy show.

Someday, maybe you will consider sending me a few of your own recordings? I appreciate all genres of music.

Ian

I've often pointed out that the arranger's shortcoming is that it never knows WHERE you are going, only where you ARE..!

Music, at it's better levels, is about the journey, not the destination. The thing that makes basslines and passing chords so integral to music is that they provide a direction. They point the way to something that is coming. They smooth the transition between chords, they provide a logic to a set of changes.

The arranger, unfortunately, cannot do this. Until you PLAY the next chord, it has absolutely no idea what it is going to be. So it can't set it up, or move smoothly to it. Music is a series of sudden jumps from one place to the other. TBH, of all the shortcomings of arranger play vs. SMF, this is the one I hear more than anything. The joy of a great bassline that walks around and leads you from one chord or section to another is missing. The voice leading and passing chords from the rhythm guitarist or pianist part is gone.

Organists have the opportunity to bring that back to auto accompaniment, and the results can be very musical!

I still think there is much that can be added to arrangers' OS's in the future to help diminish these shortcomings. One thing I'd really like to see is, if you use a chord sequencer, the first time it repeats the chord change you played, it now KNOWS where it is going... no reason why walking bass and passing chords can't be added now. BIAB does this to a certain extent, because you have TOLD it what the changes are, and it generates a backing that includes a decent amount of voice leading. I think this is an area that could be explored, should any manufacturer want to improve...

Glad to see you freeing your mind and playing only what YOU want to do Ian. Feels good, doesn't it?!

I hope you get to play the BK-9 at some point. I know it won't probably change your mind about your T4, though. In many ways, it is the complete antithesis of the T4. Raw, punchy, unrefined, in your face, relatively unsophisticated! But it has a sort of brute charm about it..! If you are into live sounding stuff, it's a doozie!

(BTW, doesn't the T4 have three pedal inputs? Programmable per Performance? A double sustain and a volume pedal would allow you to set up one of the SA2 SW while still having sustain and volume, surely?)

... Sorry, posted in the wrong thread. Please accept my apologies as I can no longer delete...

I doubt very much if any arranger could sway me from the Tyros4, Diki. It suits my style of play and the music I enjoy performing. The Yamaha sound has always appealed to me, and that was the initial reason I chose to work for them. Of course, the very decent paycheck helped too...ha ha!

It is nice to see Roland offering 76-notes at a very reasonable price, although it does have it's minor compromises, especially coming from a G-70 with a much better action (with aftertouch) and an excellent touch-screen...the chord sequencer is a very cool addition, however, as well as the more manageable weight, so it should serve you very well, especially as you get older.

Man, I really appreciate today's lighter gear, even though I am still quite healthy...I suppose the "lazyitus" has crept in further than I want to admit.

I played a client's brand spanking new Clavinova CVP-609, and it incorporates a touch screen...it was okay, and I could very well get used to it, but I am secretly glad I bought the Tyros4 with it's regular screen. Touch screens, especially those well implemented, are the bee's knee's for some people, but I'm probably more old school and still prefer the more traditional physical buttons and sliders and a nice legible color screen, as on my T4.

The 609's weighted action was very nice (real wood) but I still prefer the semi-weighted action for arranger play.

Of course, if we all liked the same things, this forum wouldn't be so interesting, and it is always nice to check out other people's keyboard preferences, and arranger techniques.

The Tyros4 has three pedal inputs, and I may add another Roland sustain pedal (the one with the heel rest) for changing Leslie speeds or triggering delay effect variations...I like to keep things a certain way and relatively simple...I had to do that when doing clinics as there were times when I didn't bring my own demo keyboard, and some stores had very few accessories and I was lucky to get a sustain pedal...of course, now that has all changed and I can work out a set-up that gives me lots of control.

It's good to take a break from pro playing and sort of re-organize and re-evaluate what I want to do musically...of course, I still play several hours a day, which is as much therapy as it is in keeping my chops up to a decent level.

Hopefully I'll get an opportunity to try the BK-9...it appears to be a great value, and it really has no direct competition that I can think of, but I do want to actually spend a bit of time on one before I recommend it.

Ian

Roland have long offered a 76 at a reasonable price... in fact, the E60 was even LESS than the BK-9! And it had speakers too, at about the same weight (or less) than an S910.

This, I guess, is what confuses me so much about arranger players. If they came from a piano background, wouldn't at least a 76 allow a far more pianistic approach to playing? If they came from an organ background, they came from having TWO 61's and at least 7 at the feet... 122-130 notes! Going from all that to one measly 61 seems so limiting to me, at least.

And trust me, Ian... once you get to use a really GOOD touch screen, with well designed flow to the layout, you won't want to go back..! I must confess, I haven't yet played one as logically laid out as the G70's. I HATE the Kronos's (too small fonts, stuff too close together to hit accurately while playing), I don't like the PA3x's (a bit sluggish and unreliable). Haven't tried the new CVP's yet, though. But if the Kronos or the PA3x were what I was basing my opinions on, I must admit I wouldn't be a big fan either! It really IS about the design flow and layout more than the screen itself.

Getting old definitely ain't for wussies (just had a trip to the emergency room last weekend myself for a blood pressure issue!), but all in all, if Roland offered a BK-9 with the case, action and touch screen of the G70, at the G70's weight, I'd have bought that in a flash over the BK-9! Experience, dollies and leverage make up for what strength I may be losing! I don't mind the low weight of the BK-9, but it cost me more than I wanted to give up...

That's cool, Diki, I am glad you are doing okay health wise; keep an eye on that blood pressure-the guy who owned the CVP-609 I played, Keith Mann, was found dead in bed last week due to a stroke...I was to do another follow-up clinic with him this week and had been talking with him a day or so before on the phone...he sounded fine, and when I was previously at his place he looked very healthy and was in good spirits.

He was very close friend, and an awesome musician...easily at the level of a Marty H or a Peter B...played on TV in his younger years..he was just 66 when he passed. I had just finished loading up a flashdrive with my custom styles for him when I got the call from his brother. Quite a shocker.

I suppose I could get used to a touchscreen, but not anything currently available has pleased me much. As far as 61 notes, we've been down that road many (too many, actually) times before ...suffice to say I'm very happy with the Tyros4 laid out as it is...I approach it, not as a pianist or organist, but as a synth player, and it works for me. Only one change I would make regarding ergonomics I may have mentioned this before)...they should have put the Effect Variation (e.g. Leslie fast/slow) buttons nearer the left side of the keyboard; where they are at the upper far right was a boo boo...otherwise it is a very comfortable instrument to play. I am so grateful I was able to afford it, and that I was able to get a good deal from Yamaha before I retired.

I had a very limited time on a PA3X some time ago, and it sounded very good indeed, and was very well put together. A friend of a client owned it and it hadn't been purchased locally...the screen was okay...again, it made me appreciate the T4's layout...but, of course, it's what I am accustomed to. I thought the "motorized" bit was a tad overkill, but hey, cool little gimmicks help sales, do they not?

I do remember the G-70 I had been babysitting for a friend for several weeks quite some time ago, and if my memory serves me right, the screen was pretty good.

Maybe Roland will take the bull by the horns, and make a BK-9 derivative with a decent touch screen and aftertouch. I think they'd do well with it.

Ian

I'm kind of hoping that if it does well, they'll revisit the upper end of the market. The BK-9's street price isn't much more than most MOTL arrangers, and almost a cool $2000 less than the PA3X76, the next closest 76! I think there's room for another 76 at the top end.

Roland made a very necessary contraction for a while, I think. Their previous TOTL arrangers hadn't exactly overwhelmed the market, and that's a lot of dough to put into R&D for something to tank. So they cut back to sub-$1000 arrangers for a while, and concentrated on getting some seriously significant new sounds and OS features ready to go before revisiting the MOTL market. The CS, the audio synced loops, the SN stuff (heard my SN Ac Guit demo?), the new Hammond stuff, the vastly improved drums and percussion (I haven't even really started to post about that stuff, yet!), all of this is the step forward they needed to do. Plus not, as many Drum Tracks in a style as you want, and Custom User Kits, vastly improved Pianostyle chord recognition, things like that have put them back on track.

Now all the need to do is wrap it in a great case and action, and give us back the touchscreen (and OK, throw in a decent VH for the Andrews Sisters addicts!) and I think they can reclaim the TOTL sector with their heads held high...

I agree... I think they'd do well with it. Plenty of people still able to drop $5000 on an Audya or T4! The old $3500 price point would make it VERY attractive! Even $4000 would only put it the PA3X76 ballpark.

Excellent .......enjoyed the listen right before I leave for todays gig....good inspiration....thanx for sharing Bill