Hi All,

It's been a while since I've posted here I hope you're all well

I'm thinking of purchasing a second keyboard to go along with the T3 I have. Ever since I bought the T3 a few years ago I've been really pleased with it with the exception of the choir and vocal sounds which were decent but very basic, I rectified this by purchasing the vocal and choir premium pack.

Now I was looking for a second keyboard, smaller, lighter but with a similar quality and user friendliness of the T3. The types of styles I mainly use are worship styles, so ballads, worship & swing styles are the main focus and the T3 has some really lovely styles of this kind which I'd expect to also feature on the S950.

My only concern would be the quality of choir / vocal sounds which are important for gospel music. How many of them are there and how does it compare to the T3 or even T4 although I understand that the S950 doesn't have the T4's best vocal sounds. But even 1 decent sound would suffice.

Also I understand that there a free premium pack download available for the S950?

Thanks,
Danny

Hey Danny ... if it turns out to be what you want ... I have a pristine 950 on the block.

Just sayin ...

Dave will even deliver it "across the pond".
DonM

Absolutely. Full service bloke, am I.

Actually it's $99.99 per pack. I don't own any Tyros but I own PSR-S950 and as for choir voices I think they are pretty usual here. Not very realistic and there are not many of them.

You know, maybe you are right about free packs. Yamaha came up with some promotional codes idea. I will check it.

okay, there are no 'premium packs' for PSR series, those are for Tyros only. But there are 'expansion packs' for PSR-series available. There's a promotion code which, as they say, comes with a keyboard which allows to download one pack for free. Anyway, there's only one code and there's no mechanism to prevent from multiple registrations...

Well, about those packs: I had a chance to try them all and I wasn't impressed with any of them. The voices are so-so, the styles are too regional - believe me, Russian 'Troika' and 'Kalinka' are as exotic as for for an American. So, 9 packs - $900 value - it makes me to ask 'Yamaha, are you serious?

Sorry. DannyUK, no good choir there either...

I feel kinda lonely in this topic ) Also feel like I stole it.

Perhaps I've jumped to the conclusion too quickly. I mean, about expansion packs for S750/S950. It's a good thing that their content is quite different from the factory one. And it's indeed very localized. I don't find Eastern Europe pack very useful for me - although it contains styles for Russian folk songs and voices of 'babalaika' (I prefer to use a factory 'mandolin' instead), but I found to be interesting Oriental and Eurodance packs.

Hi Kabinopus,

Don't feel bad about your many replies its good to get as much feedback as possible so I thank you for that. Seems like this keyboard lacks decent choir or vocal sounds which is disappointing to learn and has put be off a little. It is surprising though but I guess they're holding off for future models.

Take Care
Danny

UD, you should keep the 950 as you'll have the best of both worlds! PA900 sounds like a great alternative

Danny, the 950 is awesome except for the keys. If it played more to my liking, it'd be perfect with the VLT2. It's media playback is actually better in some ways than the Korg - higher output and random play feature. I like that for break sets.
Still ... It's for sale. I'll never use 2 boards at the same time, and if that rare occasion pops up - I have my trusted i5s with Roland JV1010 sound module for extra sounds.

Dave, if I were you, I would keep the S-950 and get rid of the Korg. Forget the key feel stuff - it really doesn't hamper your playing ability at all. You know the OS like the back of your hand, the sounds are phenomenal, the styles are fabulous, and you can use it with an outboard vocal processor and have the best of all worlds. If it helps, find a couple strands of red hair and tactfully place them on the display where they can be seen, then you'll forget about the key feel thing.

Good Luck,

Gary

Gary good advice the S950 is hard to beat..

Weeeeeeel .... the key feel actually does influence the way I play quite a bit, and I've noticed a better "fun factor" on the job since taking the Korg - also - it's smaller and fits on the stand setup better. The Yamaha is great for what it is ... but all things concidered, I'd rather be in Korgadelphia!

Unless key feel doesn't matter to you at ALL, the PSR's are the worst feeling actions I've ever played. At the exorbitant price they ask for them, and the fact that everybody else somehow manages to include a decent action at the same or lower price point, Yamaha should be ashamed.

I've played toys that had crisper actions. Hell, my accordions have crisper actions..!

Dave dont you mean Rolandelphia soon?..

But of course, Diki. But, have you ever considered that not everyone likes the same key feel as you? Personally, I NEVER want to play weighted keys again - NEVER! I love that light touch, and amazingly, my hands don't get stiff after doing a 4-hour job.

Cheers,

Gary

Gary... let's be honest. For starters, even my G70's action isn't 'weighted'. And the BK-9 is lighter than that! None of these things comes even CLOSE to a piano's weight. They are all 'synth' or 'organ' weight actions.

It's got nothing to do with the weight. It is about the crispness, about the quality of construction (lack of 'wobble'), and it is about how it FEELS when you hit the bottom of the travel. There is NO FEEL at all on the PSR's. You might as well be playing a toy (I've played better toys!). I have a friend with an S950. He played my BK-9. He HATES his S950's action (and he didn't like it to start with!)!

I tell you what... I guarantee, if they replaced your PSR's action with a BK-9's (in 61 size), you would LOVE it! It weighs no more than you already have, it is simply crisper, less spongy, and makes you feel like you are playing something you paid $2000 for, not $500. Keep telling yourself what you like, but until you have played one, don't tell me you like yours better. You need to TRY one before you can say that.

I agree - psr action is the all time LEAST favorite for me.

I love the lighter Yamaha touch,...I cant explain it but, the great sound between the ears & the fingers when the keys are pressed gives me all the feeling and touch sensitivity I need when playing,...makes sense?

Diki, keep in mind that I had a G-800, an ancient Korg, and lots of other brands - I, like many others, just enjoy that lighter touch. What I don't understand is your reference to Yamaha's touch as a "toy." It's not by any means a toy, any more than any other arranger keyboard. It has nothing to do with build quality, it's just a difference in design. Just because there's more resistance to pressing a key doesn't necessarily mean the construction is better, or worse, for that matter - it's just different. I don't understand why you continue to make derogatory statements about keyboards that do not meet YOUR specifications. It makes absolutely no sense to me, but what the Hell do I know, I'm old.

Gary (the cantankerous old bastard )

My first impression is the key touch..I don't even have to turn the power on..

I really do not understand a player that says the key touch does not influence the ability to play better...both emotionally and dynamically

It has been my number one concern with Yamaha keyboards..mostly the PSR line up, but the Tyros never did it for me either,,Yamaha's mid priced workstations are also bad key feel..
The Roland Juno line (except the Juno stage), are the worst of Roland's line up..The BK5 is a shade better, but still lacks what I want to play..

Korg does not meet my needs either with the PA800 and lower models..where the PA1x and 2x and 3x..are fine (Fatar action)..

If a player spends any time on The Roland's G series (800, 1000,70..or VA76)...it would be hard to switch to any other feel..The high end Korg and Roland arranger keyboards are the most appealing key feel..

Like Dave said..the enjoyment level rises with a better feel under your fingers

...unless you're playing those extra long G70 keys. What's THAT all about????

Your not use to full size keys..they are the proper lenght..

5 13/16...

why, does a firmer keybed make you a better player?...I think not... ....either your a good player or your mediocre regardless of the keybed.

Simply not true...It takes a decent keybed to play different dynamics....As an example ..listen to a expressive piano tune played on a piano.....most of the dynamics can be played on the better keybeds I mentioned previously..but play the same tune on your PSR, and you will hear mostly wide open filter tones...A "firmer" (your words) give you a more variation of dynamics, that are easier to adjust on a great feel board...and is totally lacking on a mushy board...

It doesn't always, make you a better player, but it will make you a more expressive player..

Boy, you two must be bored out of your minds ... you're arguing points that we've hashed out dozens of times! We've all sung the praises of a nice, tight, responsive keybed. As many wonderful things about Yamaha that I can think of ... key feel has never been one of them!

What?....A bad player will always sound bad on any keybed firm or light..so the millions of yamnaha PSR players dont know what they are talking about?

Donny - stop playing Devils Advocate and get the hell out of the house and AWAY from that computer screen! You need hobby, my friend. Take a break.

When Im right Im right...

I'll let you know when that is ... keep waiting

I have always felt that action feel (on a properly functioning arranger keyboard) has always been personal opinion...I have played Roland, Korg, and Yamaha that I liked, and some I didn't like so much.

I would never trust another player's opinion on key action feel...I have to try for myself. Some SZ'ers have raved about certain key actions, and when I tried them, my rating was sometimes the same, and, sometimes considerably less.

We must remember, none of us play arranger in exactly the same manner, and we all grew up musically on different types of instruments (and some started out on instruments other than keyboards) so we all have developed key action preferences due to habit, what was available, and what we could afford.

My preference is now the Tyros4, mainly because it is very similar to my all time favorite key action, the Yamaha DX-7. I could live with the lighter action on PSR, Roland, Korg as I also played some synths with the same basic feel, and have no absolutely no trouble adapting to it's disadvantages and exploiting it's advantages.

Getting in another frivolous contest of urinary supremacy over what action is better has gotten real old and tired on SZ...nearly as worn out as what brand sounds "better" than another, and, if you read back on older posts, you will find that none of these tournaments has changed anyone's opinion in the least.

Ian

Amen, Ian.

I have to say I had the opportunity to try the 950 at Frank's and for whatever reason I didn't like the keys ... I didn't take the time to analyze it, but I didn't care for it ... might I be able to get used to it? - probably, if I HAD to ...
I prefer the keys on my kn6000 and Pa600 ...
but what do I know?!? ...
oh, wait ... I know what I like ...

I'm sure glad I have those flimsy, small keys. If I those firm, semi-weighted, or better yet, fully weighted, keys, I would be working so much I wouldn't have time to sail my boat at all. I would have to hire a roadie, a sound guy, a female vocalist, and probably a live drummer because I just wouldn't be able to handle the work load by myself. I would be playing with so much expression someone would probably write a movie script about me, then ask me to play the staring role. Damned, I wouldn't even have enough time to sleep. Yeah - right!

Cheers,

Gary

Duplicate post - sorry!

Look Gary, bottom line is, even Yamaha think their PSR action is so excremental they don't inflict it on their MUCH larger synth and WS market segment!

You compare the PSR action with anything else they make (even synths and WS's half the price of the S950 and under) and they are MUCH better keybeds.

The reason why PSR users say they love that action so much? They have no choice! You want to play a PSR, you HAVE to use that action. And then self justification creeps in. Like I said, if Yamaha ever develop a sense of shame, and replace the PSR action with something only as good as a $1000 WS, you will be singing its praises.

Take Ian. For YEARS he defended that PSR action while he had one. But now he has a Tyros4 with its much better, crisper action, he is finally admitting he really likes it. After saying the exact opposite for the longest time. What changed? Only his ownership... The action on the T4 (similar to most decent arrangers) is still the same.

Sure, you can get USED to anything..! But that doesn't make it any good. Just what you are resigned to.


BTW... the G70's keys are still slightly shorter than a piano's.

BTW, Gary... BK-9 (with a fantastic 76 action) is 5 lbs. LIGHTER than your S950. Maybe you won't need the roadies after all? You sure won't need a real drummer (it sounds like one, unlike the PSR!).

Hey, what changed was my mind, and I do reserve the right to do that at any time...you managed to change your opinions of lighter no aftertouch actions and non-touch screens when the BK-9 came out (and, of course you bought one) so I'm allowed at least a little leniency...okay?

I don't think that makes us both hypocrites, now, does it? I know I feel very comfortable with my decision.

The only Tyros I didn't fussy was the Tyros1, which used a completely different action (with aftertouch) than the subsequent FSX models...it was also not made in Japan. Some people liked it...I didn't.

I have always liked the PSR action, which is why I considered buying an S910, but having the aftertouch, and all the other neat features (plus the better d/a converters, sounds, etc.) of the Tyros4 at a very lucrative price sealed the deal immediately. I did find it a change going to the semi-weighted T4 action after playing the PSR, but, hey, like you, I can adapt, especially considering the rewards...and yes, now I like it...a lot!

However, if anyone does not like PSR action, that is not my problem, nor do I intend to try and convince anyone else to change their feelings towards it if it doesn't meet their needs. I happen to like it, as do many here on SZ. It is smooth, fast, and very reliable...it's not going to be changed as far as I know.

So, don't worry about us happy Yamaha users...if you haven't noticed, we've survived very well...thank you very much.

Ian

PS...all kidding aside, I'm very grateful that I was able to get the Tyros4...it's a beauty of an arranger, and I am thoroughly enjoying digging deep into it's wonderful features, and now, being retired with lots of time, I can really enjoy just playing for pure personal enjoyment. No plans for gigging as of now, unless someone has lotsa $$$$ to tempt me.

Haven't changed my opinion in the slightest. Would happily pay more for a BK-9 with the G70 action. But let's face it, as different as the BK-9 action is, it STILL is absolutely superior to the PSR's (at a very similar pricepoint). In fact, I think you would like it immensely, Ian. It is quite DX-7-like.

TBH, if the DX-7 is your gold standard, how you were able to tolerate something so utterly different and inferior by a wide margin all those years is beyond me. Look, we all play what we HAVE to play. But, as far as I am concerned, just because I HAVE to play something (it's not like I am turning down the opportunity to play an arranger with a better action because of cost considerations or brand loyalty), if it has quality issues, I'll say it. I don't care whether I'm a critic of my OWN arranger or anyone else's. If something stinks, I'll say it loud and clear.

I don't 'defend' my choice for years and then change my opinion after I've got something else. Heck, who knows... I might end up on a PSR one day. But one thing you'll NEVER hear me say even if I have one is that the action is good. It stinks, it has always stunk, and you know it now (or are willing to admit that there IS something better, which you wouldn't do back in your PSR days. despite being intimately familiar with actions you liked better).

I've got no choice with the BK-9. Unlike the Yamaha's, Roland don't currently make an arranger with a better action than the BK-9. It's a really good action. But it isn't as good as the G70's.

There... I said it!

If only all of us were able to sit back and call a spade a spade. Maybe out manufacturers would take us seriously, and DO SOMETHING about how bad the PSR's actions are. But while owners won't dare speak up about it until they finally get on something else, in some kind of misguided 'loyalty' attitude, what are the odds..? It's not like Yamaha couldn't afford to replace the PSR action with something better. They do on the MUCH less expensive WS's. Maybe all this silence has simply made them feel like it IS a good action?

Nah... it just makes them realize what suckers arranger owners can be about model loyalty! So why change..? That has GOT to be a MUCH cheaper action. More bucks for Yamaha, bad actions for their arranger owners. That makes good sense, doesn't it?

I spoke with a man who works in Yamaha as a demonstrator about the keybed of PSR-S950, he didn't say that it's excellent, but he said that it's rather good. I asked him if the keybed of S950 is better than keybeds of entry-level keyboards like PSR-E433 and he told me that it's definitely better.

As for me, when I was working in a restaurant I had to play Yamaha grand piano there for a long time. I sure liked its action, but I can't say that switching to any of my keyboards (PSR-3000, S950, NP-30, MM6) was in any way painful after that. I admit that I'm not a professional pianist, I don't play tricky classical stuff (I don't like it either), but I do want the keyboard to let me play what I want.

If I'm not mistaken, Roland uses keybeds which are made by Italian corporation called "Fatar". I had Fatar's midi keyboard for a while. Can't say that I felt about it any different then about Yamaha's products.

As I said earlier, none of these contests has ever changed anyone's opinion.

I can see this is just frittering away my valuable playing time (I've gotta enjoy my awesome Tyros4)and I'd rather be involved in more useful discussions.

Rather than compare, I prefer to identify with other arranger players as that always ends in a win-win.

Seeing this thread has drifted off topic a bit too much, and, since I'm chuffed with my previous responses, my participation on this subject ends here.

Ian

I think many are related "Good" to what is good for piano players. And that's fine, if that's what you want.
I never played piano. The lighter and faster the key response the better for me. My aging arthritic, cramping fingers have been through so much basketball, golf, fishing, some even actual work, that I physically couldn't play a piano for more than a few minutes, even if I knew how. So for me PSR keys are really good.
$30,000 grand piano keys are really bad. It's all in your perspective!

DonM

I've probably played synths and organs more professionally than pianos in my career. I think that everybody is clouding the issue. This is nothing to do with how an arranger's action compares to a piano's...

It is how it compares to OTHER synth actions. There is a wide degree of difference between them, ranging from the excremental to the sublime. But it isn't a weight issue. It is a quality of construction issue. Without doubt, you are hard pressed to find ANYTHING in the S950's price range that has such a poorly constructed action. Gary makes a point to never invoke any other synth actions to make a comparison for his poor arthritic fingers (he probably hasn't played that G800 in decades... memory is such a poor thing!), and wants to make his point by comparison to a piano's action to cloud the issue.

But take that comparison away (there is only one arranger made with a full piano action, the Korg PA588, which hasn't been updated in years) and start to compare PSR's with their actual competition, and weight becomes moot. They are ALL lightweight actions. Just some suck, and most don't.

With such misguided loyalty as is being shown, I guess it's unlikely that Yamaha will ever seriously upgrade the quality of actions in the PSR upper end, so there's no danger of Gary ever having to eat his words, but I am utterly convinced that if Yamaha ever DID, and put the T4 action into a PSR, Gary would be the last person complaining about it! It isn't any heavier, it isn't any harder to play, it will put no more stress on his fingers than the current action. It will just FEEL good...

Same rebuttal to Kabinopus. You don't compare a PSR S950 against an even cheaper PSR (as bad as it is, it can always, in Yamaha's hands, get worse!), or against a piano.

You compare it to it's price point competition. That is the PA900 and the BK-9. Heck you can even compare it against Korg or Roland arrangers at half the price. They ALL have FAR superior synth actions.

But this says a lot about what Yamaha feel mid-price arranger buyers are willing to tolerate. Yes, they put really good speakers in them, even quite a nice display (even if it isn't touch screen) but they put the worst actions in them possible, and somehow, despite it NOT being good enough for everybody else, Yamaha users meekly accept it.

What's up with that?!