Many people think that being your playing a keyboard of some kind that you are a Piano Player, they are two different instruments, IMO, & thinking shutting off the arranger section and playing full KB with just a few triads without styles running is NOT playing piano,....either your a true piano player both hands or not,..!!!! Playing arranger Kb is totally different than playing piano. I often play cocktail hours for weddings or affairs etc, doing the piano style background ting,...but, I do it my own way using styles & my arranger KB,because I am a professional Arranger KB player,....so many don't know the difference as the layman is unaware & I cant blame them.....what I do know is when I perform & sing with my arranger KB I do it very well. I am NOT a trained piano player, left hand full keyboard playing is a different animal then spit KB playing.....both have their strengths for sure,..it's just how you were trained growing up. Starting out as a kid on Accordion is the difference between the two,....sometimes I wish I could learn to play jazz chords using my left hand but I'm too lazy & busy for that at this time, other times I don't & just do my thing and enjoy playing music in my own way as if I'm in a 5-6 pc band all by myself on my Arrangers,..
So to recap Piano is PIANO.....& ARRANGER is Arranger playing...

I have the same affliction Donny, So ... my SD1 Plus;

Not an affliction jerry but a great talant!!

Accordion players seem to be the most adept at adapting to arrangers, and of course, many still use "the squeezebox" (with midi) to control an arranger keyboard or module.

That's quite a rig you have there Jerry...how many bass buttons?

Ian

But I can play many other instruments...... I just don't like piano versus some of the others..... like drums, presentation, guitar, bass...... piano seems boring to me Imo

Hey, count me in as an avid arranger player. Of all the keyboards I've owned and played, the arranger now ranks at the top.

I especially like the independence it gives me, in regards to when, where, and what I want to play.

The early instruments were crude, but today's arrangers are extremely flexible and can be personalized to fit whatever your little keyboard playin' heart desires.

Ian

I couldn't hold a job in a ten-dollar whorehouse playing piano. Wish I could play one, but I don't wish it enough to spend the time and practice necessary at this advanced age. I used to play drums, guitar, organ and trumpet, all pretty well, but haven't touched any of them much in too many years. I love arrangers.
DonM

Donny... It's boring until you learn how to do it... then it is a lifetime of enjoyment!

But the main reason to learn it, like anything else, is to broaden your choices of how you play. Just as learning the guitar improves your ability to emulate it well, or playing a horn helps with your lines and phrasing on the arranger, learning the piano helps you play pianistically, when you need to do it..!

You've often mentioned you don't like to use sustain pedals... But you really can't play piano properly without one (you can say otherwise, but all you are doing is choosing passages that CAN be played without one, not playing anything you want), and learning the piano will give you a big leg up on that.

The minute you cut yourself off from a whole sector of keyboard types (and, TBH, the largest and most influential sector, at that!) you start to limit yourself.

Not to mention, the increased workload for the LH (lets face it, accordion and arranger playing hardly gives the LH much of a workout!) of playing full piano parts makes a radical difference in what you can do on a keyboard. Much is made of the transition that accordion players make to arrangers, but I believe this is primarily because you simply have moved from one type of keyboard that under-uses the LH to another! But start using MP3's, loops, or SMF's, take away the need to do simple changes with your LH, and you can really start to USE that LH!

I have always tried to develop a style that was TWO RH's, not a RH and a lesser LH. That way, both hands can play something quite important to the piece, and remove the need for more automatic playing, but I really doubt I would have ever been able to do this without having studied piano... Nothing else really works your LH the way the piano does!

Certainly not an arranger!

A few years ago I was offered a VERY lucrative job playing a Yamaha Grand at a piano bar at a local casino five nights a week, four hours a night. I accepted.
I borrowed a digital piano, with fully weighted action so I could learn enough left hand stuff to get by. I had a month to get my chops together. How hard could it be? The right hand was no problem and I had plenty of help with learning what to do with the left hand. After all, I would just be playing easy stuff for people to sing along. Technically, it was quite doable, but physically, my hands just would not hold up to the action. After a week, I couldn't even open and close my fingers. So I called and backed out of the deal.
Arthritis is even a little worse now, but it still doesn't bother me playing light action. Even the PA3X may have to go soon in favor of the S950 because it looks like I'm going back to work on a more regular basis again. We'll see how the phalanges hold up.
DonM

I enjoy playing any keyboard instrument...but it has to be a quality instrument..Accordions that I have owned were high quality that played well..when I play a cheap accordion, I have to put it down..

Organs...a Hammond A, B or C model ..I enjoy..If I played my old Wurlitzer organ...yuck

The most part acoustic pianos that are maintained..all work well with me...sure I have had my favorites..a Baldwin and a Samick were on my top of the list..

Electric Pianos are the easiest to like/play..most are good (Quality is still a must)..

Arrangers are the hardest to be fond of...Quality is a main concern...probably because it is my favorite choice..for much more than "arranger" play...the do it all concept makes it my choice.

All keyboards are different, in that you need a different mindset and technique...most folks do not have the patience to do so..I can make myself comfortable on any.....for a short while

I did the solo piano thing for several years, Don, but using the arranger gave me more options like cool solo voices and drums that were far easier to use than on a drum machine or workstation.

At first I had an arranger on top of my CLP-300 and played it about half the gig, but gradually the arranger got used more and more, plus it was fun!

I played the last 11 years at a fairly upscale restaurant using only an arranger and, got quite a few arranger type gigs from the exposure.

I still regard it as just one of the several tools available for a keyboard player, but lately, it has proven to be the most useful, at least in my case.

Ian

Playing piano ON a piano is not a necessity, Don. In fact, the vast majority of piano parts can be played on a 76 without very little adjustment (it's amazing how in most pop, you rarely stray outside the 76 range - in fact, back in Mozart's day, he played on a MUCH smaller piano, so a lot of early classical doesn't need 76 either!).

But working on the LH is the main thing. No longer do block chords suffice. Lines, arpeggios, all that stuff you've spent a lifetime on in the RH now matters. Thing is, leaving it until so late in your career is pretty tough. A lot of hand strength and especially stamina takes time to develop. As adults, we always expect to get somewhere significant very fast, and trouble is, this takes years of patience. As kids, at our fastest learning rate in our lives, it still takes patience and years... Why we expect, as adults, to do this in a month beats me!

Baby steps, over years... that's how you do it!

Mind you, on the other end of the scale, I also recommend any piano player that HASN'T played an accordion, or a full organ, etc., to also try to play these too. Every single thing we do opens up new possibilities, new techniques, and those enrich our playing and our lives in ways we can never tell in advance.

Don't close yourself off to anything.

I don't get it...am I alone...I am asked at family get togethers and parties to play "their " piano...

Last Sunday my wife had a family reunion (folks I never met)..and yes they had a piano (Wurlitzer)...naturally you are asked to play...you are a musician..RIGHT!!..

What do you guys do that avoid the piano...do you keep that s950 in the car......or that old accordion in the back seat

I just started playing uke with a small, crazy group; most of which also play in a very active (and terrible) marching band.

They have a ball.

I am wood shedding an hour a day on my sitar, do about 2 hours a week on vibes and am getting pretty good on an Italian made 10 string bass/guitar combination.

I'll play ANYTHING with keys and enjoy it!

When you are a musician, not an entertainer, that's where the fun (and work) is!

Russ

Heck Fran, we have a nice old Steinway upright piano in the main lounge here in the apartment building... a few of us are players and take turns tickling the ivories. It's always a hoot.

It's a nice change from the arranger, and just another tool in the keyboard players toolbox.

The other piano players are fascinated by the Tyros4.

Ian

Fran,

I get conned into playing piano once in a while - but Yes, Fran, I do keep a keyboard in the van at all times. And, for six months of last year, I had one in the boat as well. We had some great raft-up parties out in the middle of nowhere, sometimes 15 to 20 boats all rafted together, with me in the middle and rocking the night away on the 3000 running on an inverter. As for playing the piano, I no longer have that skill. I was fair at best when I did play one, and that was 30 years ago. Back then I played a guitar in honkytonk, smoke-filled bars and sang through a 100-watt Crate amp. I was still using Yamaha, which was the last 12-string I owned. I had an Ibanez 6-string, and sang through an old SM-58 on a boom stand while perched on a bar stool. Those were the days.

Cheers,

Gary

To answer your question Ian; its a 120 bass built into an SD1Plus. I also have a lighter 96 bass Orla KX10, and a 120 bass midi unit to use with a Roland A37. For short gigs and when I use files only, I use the Yamaha KX5. Now that I learned how to post photos watch out ...
Ciao,
Jerry

Donny, back in the day I was the designated chord finder for the tunes we did. I had an old $5 upright that tuned to itself pretty good but was flat. I had to play with my mouth piece hanging off the cork. Me having to figure the chords was a blessing.

We couldn't afford to buy the sheet music. When I bought a black market "fake" book at that time, I really took off and fell in love with the standards. Now I can accompany myself and entertain folks and make them happy. No shame in that friend.

I'm a sax player. And I get compliments on my vocals. I think you do a great job. Your CD's really swing. You're one of the best. Buddy.

Occasionally I get asked to play at a piano but I just tell them I don't play piano. It would only make me look like I don't know what I'm doing! About the most I'll do is Happy Birthday on one.
I actually never do jam sessions or freebies "for the fun of it". I'd come closer to picking up a guitar and picking something and that would be bad now too.
If I'm asked to do something for a good cause or good friend and I want to do it, yes, I take a keyboard and mic. You wouldn't believe how many parties I've been invited to and they casually throw in "by the way bring your gear and play for us a while." On second thought you probably would believe it!
I would never invite an MD over for dinner and say, "by the way bring your stethoscope and blood pressure cuff."
Don't get me wrong I know it's different if you aren't doing this stuff for a living, and it's a hobby that you are good at doing.
If it's fun for you, knock yourself out!
DonM

Well what a interesting post.
I guess I'm lucky then.
I was brought up on a piano and can now enjoy the pa3x in piano mode but I prefer the arranger mode. Why?. It's not laziness. I find my left hand fingers are starting to go bent where they didn't before.
Too much hard yakka supporting a lovely wife who gave me delightful children.
I'm more upset because they have no interest in playing.(even the granddaughters. Got their heads stuck in stupid tablets all the time.
baz

Thanks, Jerry. I have a friend in Newfoundland that plays piano and button accordions (and other keyboards), and I sent him the pictures of your setup.

He is using a Roland RA-90 (I think that's correct) for background styles as his squeezebox has a midi interface built in. He is considering upgrading, and, needless to say, he thought your setup was pretty cool.

Is your SD-1 Plus a discontinued model? I've seen one at Ketron USA with buttons for left and right...yours appears to have buttons left and keys right. Is that still available?

Excuse my ignorance as I am not familiar with these instruments.

Ian

Ian, Ketron offers the SD8 with accordion bass and chromatic accordion right hand buttons. I’m pretty sure it has the same specs as the SD5.
I bought my SD1 Plus from Bill Stewart who purchased it from Ketron, had it sent to MasterSound that installed the bass unit. That was some years ago, when the Plus was first introduced, and it was very expensive, I thought ($5,400 back then). I followed Bill’s posts on another forum for years and asked him to let me know if ever thought about selling it. He notified me that he was posting it on ebay and the rest is history. I’ve had the Ajamsonic upgrade installed within the last year.
Ciao,
Jerry

Obviously it is a keeper, Jerry, especially with the Ajamsonic upgrade.

Thanks for taking the time to give me the info...I'll pass it on to my friend, Junior.

Sometimes the extra expense is well worth it...I was going to get a PSR-S910, but managed to scrape up enough moolah for the big'un, the Tyros4.

Needless to say, it is definitely a keeper for me...even after almost two years, I'm still on the honeymoon.

Ian

Diki.......this is the most ridiculous thing you ever said! I grew up on the accordion and still play today. I then turned to arranger keyboards....a long term learning process for an accordionist. When I finally switched to piano, it took me 1-2 years before I could even form chords like I did on the right hand, much less do walking bass lines. And that's after learning the arranger!

Yes, you can play a piano almost overnight if you play single bass notes only with your left hand (and most unsophisticated people wouldn't even know the difference). But that's a far cry from being a pianist like Donny is talking about!

The only advantage of coming off an accordion, I believe, is that an accordionist will work extra hard on that left hand.....probably more than most who start out as just "pianists." I know I did, and today I'm fluent....and thankful for all that concentrated work I put into it!



And this is the second dumbest thing I ever heard you say.

Yes, you can "play anything" if you want to play an instrument in it's most simplified way (like playing "single bass notes on the piano").

Fact is, you could probably play something like tennis if all you want to do is just hit the ball around the court. But I certainly wouldn't call my self a "tennis player."

You need to make disclaimers when you make statements like you said here.

Now go ahead with your usual "save face" rebuttal....I'm not even going to bother reading it!

Mark, I think Diki is talking about the mechanics...and he mentioned "a bit of work"..

BTW: As you already know the accordion was the ideal instrument to learn...circle of fifths and chord structure..I never seen a taught accordionist that didn't play full chords

Everyone of my accordion playing friends (accomplished ) play great piano and organ too.....Harpsichord, I am not sure of

Wow! Some of you guys are like sharks when a drop of blood hits the water.....can't wait to join the 'feeding frenzy'. It seems that as soon as a few of the 'established' "popular guys" decide who the next victim is going to be, then the 'wannabee's' start lining up to pile on. You gotta admire some of the real 'class' people like Rikki, for example, who, if they can't say something nice about somebody, just don't say anything.

Diki has a way of phrasing things that may sometimes come across as abrasive, but it's still just HIS OPINION, which is just as valid for him as yours is for you. If you disagree with him, fine, but why attack him personally? Attack his argument and stop there. You really don't need to succumb to this mob mentality to be accepted on this board. It seems like short-timers feel the need to do this to accelerate their 'street creds'. Not necessary, trust me. Some of the most respected and revered members here NEVER take part in these activities, no matter how provocative a post may seem (to you). There should be a lesson in there somewhere.

I haven't always been a model citizen but I'm definitely trying harder to be. Maybe we all should.

chas

Mark, you better behave...only 69 days till Christmas...you be gettin' coal in your stockin'...only useful if your keyboard is that old, it runs on steam...like Boo's.

Just sayin',

Ian (supporting Santa, and good behavior, since 1955)

Apparently, you haven't heard of the concept of remaining polite on this forum. I look forward to your next departure.

Back to the original post. I am both a trained pianist, and a very dedicated arranger player. I consider playing an arranger just as much of an art form as playing the piano. There is a technique involved with arranger playing that many trained pianists don't get. I have a very good friend who is a very good jazz pianist. He can't play an arranger to save his life. He has had me come over several times to show him how to do it and he still can't wrap himself around it. I guess another way to look at it is accordion players. I couldn't play Come to Jesus on an accordion if my life depended on it. My wife is a very accomplished accordionist but I can't play one for shit. Each instrument demands a level of performance and just because you can play one doesn't mean you can play all of them.

Joe

You absolutely nailed it chas !!!! Well said.

Abusing another forum member because you don't agree with their opinion is walking on very thin ice. If you can't disagree with an opinion without getting personal ... you better not respond at all. Though the line "If you can't be bothered, I wouldn't actually brag about it if I were you!" is also bordering on getting personal as well.

People should re-read the sticky topic on this forum "Please discuss topics in a civil manner or move on". And I am fine with helping people move on.

I totally agree Joe. And that is exactly the point Donny was making when he started this thread. I guess some people don't get it.