Can anyone here tell me how to use my SD2 unit with my BK-9?
I think it would be a great combo.

Deane

Nay Deane,

Wait for the T5, stop messing with Midi, never catch on!!!

Hi Deane

Everything except the volume control has to be controlled via Midi on the SD2 therefore you need a keyboard that has a comprehensive Midi control system, unfortunately the lower range arrangers (And all the Yamaha Arrangers) have a very limited Midi control system so you will never be able to get the best out of the SD2, just the basic sounds.

You will find a Midi implementation chart in the BK9 & SD 2 manuals which will explain what they can and cannot do, and it is then just a matter of matching everything up.

Have a read of this article to give you a basic understanding of Midi and how to use it for what you require, you will then be able to decide whether the BK 9 & SD2 will work effectively together for what you want.

Hope this helps

Bill

The BK-9's MIDI implementation is quite advanced, allowing up to eight separate MIDI setups (combinations of channel selection for RH and Style/SMF Parts to be sent out via MIDI) freely linkable to each Performance.

So, essentially, you can pick and choose what gets sent to the SD-1 and what gets played by the BK-9, for each Performance.

And Tony... really? The best you can come up with is a suggestion to buy an as yet unreleased arranger that will be more than twice the OP's gear's cost combined? Right...

Deane,

I think the BK-9 is the same as the Yamaha arrangers and will filter out non-Roland sysex codes needed to setup the SD-2.

Bill G

The BK-9 sequencer can send sys-ex. If there is particular code you need to send to the SD-2, you can send it with this. Doesn't matter what kind it is.

But essentially, one sort of expects that the SD-2 is a sound bank, and I am not sure why you'd need to blow sys-ex at it? Primarily, you need notes, and controllers, and you are good to go, surely?

The trick is to get the master arranger to decide which Parts get played internally, and which get sent via MIDI, right? That's a snap for the BK-9.

Great Diki,

why don't you volunteer to do it for Deane as he does not know.

Bill G

What you need essentially for using the SD 2 is the possibility to send MSB/LSB and PC midi commands (bank change and program change) in order to select the sounds you want. I'm not sure BK-9 can do that in a flexible way. The MOX can do it, it has got 128 master storage locations, and in each master you have several zones which can send a MSB/LSB/PC setting each, which changes the selected sound of the SD2.

Another option is to use the SD2 with an iPad if you use the app "Set List Maker". This app allows you to create set lists and store midi commands for each item in the list.

It would also be possible to prepare midi files just for the purpose of sending the msb/lsb/pc commands to the SD2. You could call up the midi file stored on the BK-9 USB drive and quickly start and stop it, so that the SD2 switches to the desired sounds.

Bill, I'm pretty sure Diki did offer to help Deane a few days ago, but on the Roland forum
DonM

I do not have an SD-2. But I'll be happy to work it out if someone donates one!

I need something more specific to be able to provide an 'answer' to a question. First of all, do you know you need to send sys-ex? Are you having problems yet? Have you ever hooked anything to anything else before?

But some basics, like what you want to do once they are hooked up, is a good place to start. And walking before you run is always a good place to start, too.

Some of the onus to make modules work well also falls on the shoulders of the manufacturer, and this is where many fall short. You have to design a module for its expected use, and one of the primary things is, most modules are used with different gear than the manufacturer makes. So using proprietary sys-ex codes to do something is a big mistake, IMO, as you never know WHAT the sending keyboard is actually capable of. Especially with arrangers (probably what Ketron are expecting this gets hooked to, mostly), who never seem to have as comprehensive a MIDI implementation as the best WS's or controller keyboards.

You never know if the keyboard you hook it to is even capable of sending specific codes, making the unit flexible in allowing the user to determine what codes control what functions allows a far wider use. Even something so simple as the codes for calling up a Voice... Many arrangers don't allow you to define what PC/32/00 get sent simply to call a voice up. So allowing you to define those yourself to match the sending keyboard's capabilities would strike me as highly practical. But very rare.

But the BK-9 can send PC/32/00 codes from the style section, so Style Parts ought to be able to call up correct Tones in the module. The problem that may arise (the G70 had this issue too) is that the RH can only send PC/32/00 codes that are used by internal sounds. Now, that is thousands of different codes, but there is no guarantee that a PC/32/00 code for a specific SD-2 sound is the same as one that calls up a BK-9 Tone.

This is where the module being able to remap PC/32/00 codes to internal voices would be of great use. Does the SD-2 allow this?

Thing is, back when the entire soundmap of a MIDI piece of gear was the 127 Capitol Tones, and a few well defined Variations, this problem didn't come up. But nowadays, there has been no more standardization between the manufacturers, and once again, it's the Wild West when it comes to getting one manufacturer's gear to talk nice with another's..! Drum kits are another area the manufacturers have drifted, and few SMF's or Styles that fully utilize a modern arranger's soundsets will play correctly on something else.

At least making modules more flexible would mitigate the problem trying to integrate them into less sophisticated MIDI environments. A module manufacturer shouldn't automatically assume that, no matter what strange codes or unique PC codes they use, whatever YOU have will work just great with it...

You can't remap anything in the SD 2, because you can't STORE anything in the SD 2 at all. It will be a wild goose chase to try to call up SD 2 sounds by having the BK-9 send its own internal PC midi commands. You won't be able to address the high-quality sounds outside the GM bank. As I wrote you need to send specific controllable PC/MSB/LSB commands to the SD2 for each song you play, which you can do with master functions such as the MOX or Motif has, with the iPAD app Set List Maker or by preparing midi files in this way.
I have been thinking about buying an SD 1000 myself, this is why I inquired about it.

Have you taken a look at the PC/32/00 codes for sounds on the SD-2 and BK-9? I would be very surprised if there isn't a fair amount of overlap...

At the very least, you'll be able to call up the Capitol Tone (which one HOPES is the best variation of the sound) and quite likely, some of the more established Variations (these have been standardized over a decade).

Will you be able to call up ANYTHING using existing Roland PC/32/00 codes? Doubtful, but you should still be able to call up quite a few...

OK... a quick look at the Tone table in the SD-2 reveals that only CC00 is used, so whatever CC32 gets sent by the BK-9 is ignored.

Bank A uses CC00=0, so that means the Capital sounds in the BK-9's bank send this code. So Bank A is 100% addressable.

Bank B uses CC00=1 which most BK-9 PC's have a version (but not all)

Bank C uses CC00=10 which is a lot rarer.

The Presets Bank uses CC00=2, which quite a lot of BK-9 PC's use.

If you compare the SD-2 codes ( http://www.ketron.com/pdf/SD2%20Manual%20English.pdf ) with the BK-9 MIDI implementation chart BK-9Tone&DrumKitList_e2_W.pdf (available at Roland http://www.rolandus.com/support/owners_manuals/ ) you should be able to pin down exactly how many you can address for the RH side of the BK-9.

You can insert PC/00/32 codes into BK-9 styles using the Style Creator software, so the total soundset should be available for style/smf use...

Hope this helps.

Here is Roland Support's Suggestions.

Roland Product Support (Roland Corporation U.S.)
Oct 28 03:38 pm (PDT)
Hello Deane,
We are not familiar with the Ketron unit, but it looks like a small sound module, correct? If so, do you want the styles in the BK-9 to drive / play sounds in the SD-2? Or are you more interested in playing the SD-2 sounds from the keyboard of the BK-9?
If both cases, you will need to use the MIDI settings in the BK-9 to accomplish this.
To set up the sounds to be played from the keyboard of the BK-9:
1. Press MENU.
2. Cursor to "MIDI" and press Enter.
3. Cursor to "Edit Tone Parts" and press Enter.
You can see here that the four keyboard parts (Upper 1, Upper 2, Lower, M. Bass) have several settings - you need to confirm that the Tx (transmit) switch is set to "On" for each and also check the MIDI Channels. By default, the channels are:
Upper 1 = MIDI channel 4
Upper 2 = MIDI channel 6
Lower = MIDI channel 11
M. Bass = MIDI channel 12
You may need to change these to match up with specific parts on the SD-2 if it does not have the same type of configuration.

To set up the sounds to be played by the Styles of the BK-9:
1. Press MENU.
2. Cursor to "MIDI" and press Enter.
3. Cursor to "Edit Rhythm Parts" and press Enter.
You can see here that the eight Style parts (ADrum, ABass, Acc 1 - 6) have several settings - you need to confirm that the Tx (transmit) switch is set to "On" for each and also check the MIDI Channels. By default, the channels are:
ADrum = MIDI channel 10
ABass = MIDI channel 2
Acc 1 = MIDI channel 1
Acc 2 = MIDI channel 3
Acc 3 = MIDI channel 5
Acc 4 = MIDI channel 7
Acc 5 = MIDI channel 8
Acc 6 = MIDI channel 9
You may need to change these to match up with specific parts on the SD-2 if it does not have the same type of configuration.

These settings should allow you to trigger an external MIDI Sound Module (such as the SD-2) with the BK-9.
Best Regards,
Product Support
Roland Corp. U.S.

Too damned complicated, Deane. Go back to the S-950 and enjoy life.

Gary

This answer by Roland only describes what BK-9 parts send on which midi channels and that you can change that, but that's not the problem here. They don't tell anything on how the BK could make the SD 2 select the desired sounds (as they obviously don't know that the sounds cannot be selected on the SD2 module directly). Diki's answer is much more helpful.

As addressing sounds via midi PC/bank commands is a bit complicated, have you thought about buying an SD 4 instead? Ketron seems to have stopped its production recently, but maybe it's still available somewhere. The sounds are exactly the same as those of the SD 2, and you can select sounds on the unit directly (at least one at a time).

Thanks folks for all the input. I'am a "plug and play" kind of guy and this is way to hairy for this old man.

Deane

You can pretty much kiss 'plug and play' goodbye nowadays, Deane!

Most modern arrangers and WS's are so complex, and so non-standardized, getting two of them to work together is a major task for the best MIDI guru's out there.

Maybe 15-20 years ago, this would have worked for you, Deane (pretty much only the 127 Capitol Sounds, and a few common Variation sounds) but nowadays, all that is out of the window.

This is why I have talked about the need for module manufacturers to be FAR more flexible, and allow the sounds in them to be re-mapped to PC/32/00 codes that the sending gear is capable of sending. They never know WHAT is going to be hooked up to it, and it simply strikes me as foolish to hardwire yourself into one set of codes. All you are doing, essentially, is limiting the market you can sell to. Bad idea!

Particularly in a module that in all likelihood is going to be connected to an arranger, possibly the least flexible keyboard on the planet! Ketron would be wise to upgrade the OS to allow sound remapping...

Pretty much all the up market (More expensive) modules can map anything anywhere; however the SD2 was designed as a cheap little module for adding some great sounds.

So long as your arranger can output standard Midi assignments (Bank/Program Change, volume, pitch, modulation etc.) then you can easily select any sound on the SD2 you wish to use, however its editing capabilities (Which are extensive) require special codes to operate them. (Both vArranger and Live Styler software arrangers have this already built in for the SD2 (It can also be integrated in Wersi instruments from the 90s Mosys )

Bill

The bank/program change midi message is the crucial one, and as Diki explained, a lot, but not all of the values required for the Ketron sounds can be sent by the BK-9 (by finding the BK-9 sound in the tone list with the respective value).
Let's have an example: I want to play the Ketron sound 'Mandolin' in Voice Bank B, No.106. In order to call up this sound from the BK-9, you have to find a BK-9 sound which sends out the midi PC message 106 and bank (CC00) message 1. In the BK-9 tone list I found sound no. 1535, "Pipa /4", which has the value CC00=1, PC=106. So selecting Pipa /4 on BK-9 should trigger the Mandolin sound on Ketron SD 2. Of course, you would have to mute the BK-9 'Pipa /4' sound then to hear the Ketron. Well, that's a way to use the Ketron, but it remains inconvenient...

If you say so Dikipedia I will believe you, though 1000s wouldn't

Buy a Kronos Deanne and your problems will just float away or you will be blown away.

BTW Deane when are you coming over to the UK again, if you come North I will come and see you

Tony

I agree too damm complicated just get a yamaha and play it. It that simple.

Bad news, everyone... EVERYTHING is complicated! NOTHING is 'plug and play'!

If you want to get the best out of any keyboard in the 21st century, either buy a digital piano, and play one sound for the rest of your life, solo (not a bad idea, actually!), or be prepared to do some considerable work.

The only people that think all this is easy are people who have done it on one manufacturer's arranger so long, they have forgotten how long it took them to learn it all. And they seldom have a CLUE how much work it takes, transiting from one manufacturer's OS and workflow to another. This forum is full of stories from people that had been on Brand A forever, then got a Brand B and couldn't figure it out and get comfortable as much as they were on their Brand A arranger. So they got rid of it and went back to Brand A, and gave a poor review of Brand B.

But owners of Brand B had as much problems transitioning to Brand A. And Brand A gets the poor review.

But bottom line is, nothing wrong with EITHER of them. Simply put, the problem resides with the operator, not the equipment..!

The other problem seems to be, so few people HAPPY with what they have. Or they wouldn't be changing brands and models as often as they do. Perhaps it is the fact that, no matter what you buy, it's still YOU playing it! The sad fact is, no amount of change of equipment is going to alter your playing... That has got to come from practice and hard work. And who has time for that, much, these days (wink)?!

But, I don't think I have heard a single story about how someone thought they sucked until they bought a Brand A arranger, and now they think they are much better! 90% of your satisfaction comes from how you play. The 10% extra or less the different brands give you isn't really significant compared to what comes out of your fingers. If you are getting antsy about a new arranger, ask yourself WHY..?

And maybe try a study book, a few lessons with someone who's playing you admire, maybe learn up a bunch of tunes in a style you are unfamiliar with, buy a few CD's of new music and learn it...

It will probably make you sound better than buying a new arranger, and playing the same stuff on it.

Good post Diki. There is a lot of truth here.

Is the BK-9 that lacking of good sounds that you would consider using a sound module to compensate, and go thru all that confusion, extra hookup s, midi codes etc...especially on stage?

Tony,
Glenda and I are looking at the first two weeks in
April at Skegness again at the County Hotel. Not set in concrete yet but working on it. Airfare has nearly doubled since our first trip over a few years ago.

Donny,
It is not because the BK-9 sounds are bad but the SD2 sounds are absolutely awesome.

Deane

Deanne didnt you have an Audya already? anyway Im a one KB performer, I like to do it all in one......but believe me years ago before arrangers I carried 4 KBs to gigs with the band including a cutoff B3 & 147 leslie..lol Ouch up the stairs! BUt I always have problems with hooking things all together with modules, VH units etc .....many times they just dont talk to each other correctly...but dont worry Im sure your on board for getting a NEW Tyros 5 right and all your worries will be over and a smile on your face?

Donny. I've listened to every SD-2 demo. Haven't heard anything the SD2 does better, yet...

Hi Diki

The SD2 is effectively the sounds of the SD 5 Arranger minus any hardware controls and backing, so it’s probably around 6 or more years old now, thus its hardly surprising it does not do any better than your BK9, however it is still a great sound set that can expand any arranger keyboard beyond what the manufacture provides. (The SD4 is basically 2 x SD2 in a box with physical controls, so may be the better option with arrangers that have limited Midi capabilities)

The SD1000 is supposed to be the new kid on the block (The SD 2 bought up to date) however design wise it looks like it was built in someone’s back shed, rather than having the professional look of the SD2.

Bill

I think the SD 1000 is definitely interesting as an addition to the BK9 in term of sounds. Some brass and sax sounds are great, I also like the piano a lot. Even if they may not be clearly better than the BK sounds, it's nice to have variations (e.g. a Ketron solo trumpet with a mild, nicely SAMPLED vibrato, not present in the BK-9 in this exact way).

I am simply not quite sure of the logic of buying a lightweight, pretty comprehensive sounding arranger, then lug around a whole bunch of extra gear to expand it.

It would possibly be better to simply get a more expandable arranger (like the PA3X76) with a sampler and extensive voice editing, and you might end up with less extra weight than the module and laptop, less cables, setup hassle, etc., etc..

Overall, most arrangers made nowadays have an outstanding selection of sounds, with many, many variations of each. Not to mention voice editing capabilities and extensive EQ. So far, on the BK-9, I honestly haven't found any sound that truly cries out for another module to get it acceptable.

I totally agree that there is no deficiency soundwise which would have to be healed by an additional module. It's more for those like me who are a little crazy about collecting sounds. The weight however makes the Ketron really interesting: about 1 pound! But as Roland has announced the additional BK sound collections, it would be more logical to wait what they will hold in store - I hope they will come soon...