I would have thought this forum would be giving the launch of the Tyros 5 a standing ovation during it's release. After all, there were many posts here lamenting the demise of the one man band player and questions regarding the future of TOTL arranger keyboards.

If anything, the research and development along with the product release from Yamaha reaffirms arranger workstations are alive and well and as popular as ever.

I don't get the anti-Tyros sentiment on this forum. Is it really boiling down to the fact we are just grumpy old farts?

Many don't get it but I truly believe they are "Grumpy Old Farts"

Great post, Al.


Al, I've been retired from Yamaha since April this year, and my email is flooded with queries about the new Tyros5's and, appreciatively, my personal opinion on the instruments.

I won't be seeing one for a little while...a friend who lives nearby, and who has a 9000Pro (and a Tyros3) has ordered a Tyros5-76, and I always help him set up his arranger to suit his way of playing. But, at least I'll get to spend a bit of quality time on it, and be able to express a hands on opinion.

Someone had said on another thread that the Yamaha Tyros (and PSR) are more than just arrangers...there is a sense of community and fellowship that goes with the purchase, especially now since we have so many great Yamaha-centric forums, both old and new, that bring players together in order to share their music and tips and tricks.

This is certainly not meant as a slight against the company, but Roland would kill for one-quarter of the excitement that gets generated when Yamaha launches a new arranger. The BK-9, which is an excellent little keyboard, and despite the fact that it is considerably cheaper, barely got a blip on the radar, compared to the big splash created by Tyros5.

Why? It's an excellent product, as we have heard by the demos, and, by those who use the instruments.

Perhaps it's marketing? Or maybe it's that certain feeling I mentioned above? Korg is catching on quickly, and we see big numbers on their arranger forums since the release of their last models. I suspect the PA4X will make a bigger splash that the PA3X, as Korg are very competitive, and want more and more of the juicy arranger pie. A music store has to sell a lot of guitars to make the same amount of profit that one TOTL arranger generates. I worked in retail for several years, and doubt things have changed much since I was there.

I honestly can't understand the anti-Tyros sentiment displayed here. We are all lucky enough to find a bunch of people who play the same type of instrument as we do, and let's face it, some people (who imagine they are pros) look down on arranger players, as we have seen that here on SZ more than once. We have to stick together.

And then there are those who only (or mostly) focus on the negative, and, you rarely see an encouraging, supportive, happy, or even humorous post by them...my old aunt used to say, "When these kind of people die, even heaven won't meet their expectations."

The S950, and especially the S750 have been selling very well, according to what I hear from friends in retail, on the Yamaha forums, and also judging by my emails. The Tyros4 sold more than the first three models combined. The success and subsequent exposure of one (or any) arranger maker definitely spills over to the others, as everyone has their favorite brand.

So, I believe you are right, Al...the popularity of arrangers (of any brand) shown recently, definitely reaffirms these instruments are more than just alive and well.

Ian

I would say the price is a KEY factor mainly in todays economy.

That old saying springs to mind.
You can please all of the people some of the time and you can some of the people all of the time but you can't please KB's.
baz

Price is important, but VALUE is more important, and it is usually perceived value that matters most.

We buy something because the product we want has a higher perceived value than another ware that may have a lower price.

When you buy a Yamaha arranger, you buy more than just the instrument, as I stated above.

Ian

Great Post Ian, and I agree wholeheartedly.

The only reason I don't think price is an issue is because once you enter the Tyros (or 950) price point, it becomes a reasonable incremental increase to the next version. When you consider what it costs to get a Ketron Audya, I think the T5 is very competitive.

I'm not grumpy, old or a fart and that's why I see so many missed opportunities with the T5. I use the keyboard for modern dance and although this keyboard is strong in SO many areas, there are features a modern dance musician needs that aren't here.

For example, I feel that Yamaha made a half hearted attempt with the Midi-Audio player slider. What if I want to play 2 audio tracks in a row? I mean what's the point in a slider if it forces the musician to play Midi, audio, midi, audio, midi, audio, never changing the order? Who wants to be boxed in like that? What's the point of the slider if it can't be used freely? Korg was able to do that since the Pa2x.

That's just one example of the frustration at Yamaha missing opportunities to lure the young crowd and really enliven the future of OMB.

I'm curious: who over here would use the midi audio slider in a professional setting, and how would you use it?

From THIS OLD MAN'S perspective, today's arranger keyboards are absolutely phenomenal! I'm in love with the PSR-S950, my audiences absolutely love what they hear, including the younger audiences. The vocal processor has really improved dramatically, I've never heard more realistic voices in any keyboard I've owned in two decades, and if what I'm hearing from the T5 demos is what audiences and performers can expect, what more could anyone want. To this old fart, today's arranger keyboards provide us with the ability to become a one-man-orchestra - which to me is just phenomenal!

Gary

Personally I don't care what age group any of these arranger companies are targeting...the bottom line is, does the model/brand I buy work for my needs?

If it does, then that's all that's important to me.

I bought my Yamaha Tyros4 over two years ago, and it's sounds, styles, and features, still impress and please me when I sit down to play, do some recording, or customize styles to give my music it's own stamp.

What matters to me is the enjoyment I get from playing it, whether it's for personal use, or out making money on gigs. Reliability and factory/third party follow-up/support are also high on my list of requirements, and the Tyros4 meets or exceeds them in all areas.

To me, it was an investment...the return on it has been more than substantial.

Ian

Ian ... I agree ... while on another thread I did post that in one of the demo vids it appeared that Yamaha was targeting an older clientele, the only thing that matters to ME is whether or not a kb fits MY needs ... my 13 year old technics kn6000 is STILL my favorite board, but I purchased a KORG Pa600 because of my current gig NEEDS - good sounds, styles, and PORTABILITY ...
Both boards have paid for themselves many times over and at this point in my career and my age - when taking long vacations with my wife is my top priority - spending $5000+ on a kb is not going to be a good investment ... but the board does sound good ...

Yes, Tony, you have met your needs with your choice...and, not only was your current choice a good one, but your earlier one (the Technics) was also spot on. I wonder what your KN6000 sold for new back then, and what would that be in today's dollars?

Some people spend a lot more money on other hobbies (like golf) than home keyboard players do, and some invest far more to start a business for profit, than professional arranger players commit towards their gear.

As I said earlier...it is perceived value (the buyer has an internal feeling for how much certain products are worth to him/her) rather than price, and, in your case today, the priority of what to spend your disposable income on.

In my case, being a bachelor with no family, my musical interests have a high priority as they not only add to my income, but provide hours of diversion and fun.

So, the perceived value of a keyboard, to me, is very high and worth the extra expense to treat myself to the best I can afford.

Ian

Tony, shhhhh don't post that in too many places as I'm on the verge of retirement my wife seems to think that long vacations should be the priority, not arrangers.

I have an Audya76, Technics KN7000, Yamaha S910, Dan's vArranger, and Korg Micro as arrangers. They are all gig ready and are used for different jobs on a rotating basis.

Each one has it's unique stamp on it, and provides me and my audiences countless hours of ever changing styles of music. This is not even counting the 50% vocals I do.

Ian got me thinking when he posted about ones own enjoyment derived from the arrangers, and, of coarse, subsequently to our audiences, or not.

My approach may seem too scattered to some, but I get up every morning anxious for my next project.

It has been a helluva ride, and i'm just getting started.

Bernie, that is really all that matters. If the keyboards bring joy and contentment into your life, the cost is irrelevant! It's a great attitude to have.

Chony,

I totally agree with you. Sometimes I wonder who is designing these boards for Yamaha. Don't they listen to clients or focus groups? How about listening to real working musicians with real life use cases.

I can go on and on about T5 annoyances such as the Music Finder, authoring audio styles, why are Audio Basses missing, why can't you play very complex bass lines during style creation, audio file looping, and on, and on. I'm sure it will take time for some of these features to make it into the product. Geez, look how long it took to get 76 keys!!! Most Yamaha watchers proclaimed they would NEVER release a 76 key Tyros and Yamaha finally did.

The thing about keyboards is, they are all TRADEOFFS! Every one of them. Why don't more musicians own the Ketron Audya? There are things missing from that keyboard as well. Why aren't the Korg Pa3x keyboards selling like hot cakes? Because there are things missing or not up to everyone's expectations. But I think the Yamaha provides the most features close to what MOST people want. Is it perfect, NO, but the bread and butter features and support are there.

I like you Ian!

No matter what, But to play a Tyros (4/5) is so much fun

Impuls

I definitely think that Yamaha's marketing is what drives the excitement with the Tyros. If you strip it down to simple basic features, TBH, all of them compare very well, very evenly. Each of them has got stuff the others don't, and is missing stuff the others have got.

But how well is it promoted, how well is it demonstrated, how well is the launch managed?

Yamaha are masters of this.

And, there is a certain cachet in launching a $5000+ arranger. Let's face it, it is going to sell a fraction of the numbers of the S950 and the others in the PSR series, but just like every boy wants a Lamborghini poster on his wall even though he'll probably never drive one, a ton of interest is generated by something few of us will ever own.

Personally, I think Roland have mismanaged the BK-9 launch epically. One of its primary features, the ability to play loops in sync with the arranger, the one thing that puts it square in the ballpark of what younger players want to do, has absolutely NO CONTENT included when you buy it! How easy would it have been to include a cheap USB stick (or even a download for you to put on your own) with a selection of tasty loops and a few Performances with the Audio Key stuff set up to go? You play that in the store, you see it on a few user demos, and suddenly, everything about the BK-9 begins to make sense. It is an amazingly good arranger, especially at the price and size/weight, but add that ONE feature in, demonstrate it well, and Roland could have had an absolute sensation on their hands.

There are times when I feel that most of the manufacturers that make arrangers AND Workstations are a little bit embarrassed about their arranger divisions. One wants to feel one is on the cutting edge, one wants to feel that what one makes is having an impact on contemporary music and musicians, and if there's one thing that's true, it's that arrangers are none of that!

But here's a perfect example of a manufacturer that has actually managed to pull something quite new off, make it affordable and appeal to younger players, and Roland go and sweep it under the rug with little fanfare and promotion. In the meantime, of course, despite lesser capabilities that the younger player might need, Yamaha make a huge splash with the Tyros launch, and all the bedroom poster kids go ape!

The truth is, there's no anti-Tyros sentiment here. Simply players that this particular arranger doesn't suit our needs (or budget, mostly!) and when these shortcomings are talked about, Yamaha fanboys lose their freakin' minds! Somehow, they feel it is their right to be able to discuss things about Korg's or Roland's or Ketron's that they don't like, would prefer different, wish that they had, but somehow, when the screw is turned, label anything less than fawning, glowing, gushing infatuation as 'bashing' and 'anti-Yamaha'.

Strange, isn't it, that when THEY make their comments about other arrangers, no-one rises up en masse and labels THEM 'bashers' and 'haters'. There's a streak of inferiority running deep down in there, or why does the slightest discussion of Yamaha's shortcomings (ALL arrangers have them!) engender this rabid response?

Bernie, you are my hero!

I can totally relate to how you feel about playing. I only have a Tyros4 (for now), but even just this one keyboard has me looking forward to playing everyday.

My cuppa tea has got cold many times as I tend to lose myself in a particular style, chord progression or sound I'm working with; it's really more like "playing" with...not working.

Since retirement, I am playing a lot more (at home), as now I can spend time playing the music I want, instead of tunes to show features on the keyboard.

You and I have conversed via email often, and I can really identify with your joy of playing, and I am sure your audience picks up on that feeling.

I've seen me lately these past mornings, sit down at the Tyros4, switch it on, start playing, and after a while wonder why I'm so hungry...then I realize I haven't even started breakfast yet.

For those of us who embrace arranger keyboards, we are so lucky to have such magnificent instruments available, and, also, such fine support, whether through friends, or on the many arranger-centric forums.

It truly is a helluva ride.

Ian

Funny I hardly play when Im home don't wanna bring the job home and get burnt out, ..lol,...giggin' every day is more then enough playing energy for me on stage which is my passion since I was a kid.
Anyway enjoy what you play and let the music inside your soul my friends.......gotta run I have a nice Cocktail party & Dinner gig now. ...

carry on...

Diki

Maybe it's a simple matter of the source of the criticism ?


There are ways of making a point without alienating folks . There are clear short comings on the T5 as there are in any keyboard .Chony has pointed them out regarding the voice creation omission ,the incomplete audio loop function etc . I have pointed out the unfortunate omission of an onboard sequencer and the main reason I cannot as much as I would love to buy a T1234 or 5. And there have been many others . But the criticisms were not done in such a way as to infer the product was any less incredible because of its perceived or actual short comings or that the owner showed poor judgement by spending their own money on a product that did not meet your exact standards ( not that any product does ) . There is a reason why folks respond in a particularly defensive way when you post pretty much any criticism justified or not .

If You can't genuinely understand why the rabid reaction ,I hope this post helps.

Well said Spalding, and points expressed politely and with more than a touch of class.

Ian

Experts in the art of communication say that the way you convey a message is important at least as the message itself.
Common mistakes to avoid are:
1- Being long winded and repeating the same concept/opinion over and over: this bores the reader and averts his/her attention.
2- Getting personal or hurting personal feelings: this elicits a defensive response and reduces the efficiency of the communication almost to zero.
There would be more things to say, but then I would become long winded...

Ian ... I paid $1500 (USD) for my kn1000 in 1992 (which my grandson is now using ), and a little under $3000 for the kn6000 in 2000, and technics was way ahead of the curve at that time ... If technics were still manufacturing AKs, I would expect their TOTL to be in the same price range as the T5 ...




That's YOUR battle to fight, Steve ... but I will try not to mention it when we have dinner ...