How are the smaller brands handling themselves that took it uppon them to build more open arranger systems?

Lionstracs quit producing musical instruments all together, they are now in the automotive switches buiseness.

Wersi went broke, and the new owners seem to be moving away from an open system to a more closed system.

And the bigger compagnies dont dare to approach the more open systems, and maybe they are right as 95% of the arranger players would not be able to handle them anyway.


If anyone ever tries an open system again, it should be aprofessional system with tagged on arranger function?

Or would putting a V- arranger in a keyboardbox with pc hardware and touchscreen work? I think it only works if they add a fully yamaha/korg/roland/audya compatible soundset. Including VST for instruments like SA2 and DNC.

Now the Wersi name is under professional ownership (Music Store) they are starting to get the open system back on track, with the New Sonic having pretty much everything anybody could wish for, and in standard mode can still be used effectively by the OOTB (Easy Play) users out there, however switch to Expert mode and it effectively becomes a Workstation. (According to the details published so far all he sounds and styles for it have been done by professional musicians, programmers and style designers, which is something Wersi could never afford when it was on its own)
Full details here

As to whether the Sonic will filter down into just a keyboard (Which without its organ incumbents should theoretically be able to be produced for a similar price as a TOTL Arranger) is unknown at present, however I would be surprised if they didn’t. (Fingers crossed)

The Pegasus Wing was designed to compete with the Easy Play Arranger market, (Press a button and everything is done for you) which it does well (It’s also way cheaper than the TOTL Arrangers from Ketron, Yamaha etc.) and still retains the full upgradability of the OAS system. (If demand was proved there is no reason all the professional features couldn’t be added to it)

The current organ system (Introduced in 2000) is also still going with continual improvements. (Unlike the old days when features were added whether they were needed or not, Music Store makes sure the update gives a much improved experience)

Bill

Eventually, that is the future.

I don't know for instance how close vArranger is to be using complex VSTi sound modules, but as many other examples, the technology will lead us to using smaller and smaller devices, for more and more powerful applications. Everything goes software. Arrangers cannot be an exception, it's just that for now the big R&D departments seems to still prefer going the old verified route - maybe they actually try to get the most of it, before jumping to the future.

Fact is, the VSTi have developed to a level where 10 years ago not many believed they will. Progress I guess. It is a shame the arrangers wouldn't take advantage, but I realize it's a titanic task to actually write the code needed for this. Maybe not even possible for now... but it will come.

That will happen when big companies will take it on board. The small companies cannot really produce the change, I don't think. Unless their product ends up in Big companies portfolio.

Wow! The Wersi Sonic is only £15,999.

A couple of decent gigs should cover that nicely...


Ian

I think there is definately a market for a new Abacus, as long as it gets the attachable 76 keyboard pro option and a big 18" touchscreen and full open VST support (instruments and effects) and upgradable hardware and an option to import user created styles for other keyboards

and some knobs to turn around and a few free assignable buttons (but thats my personal petpeeve)

thats quite ignorant ian, both you and me know its a home organ not intended for gigging, and they must be compared to the roland attelier organs price range and not to arranger keyboards

and you failed to read that the Wersi TOTL arranger Pegasus Wings only costs half a Tyros 5.

Not ignorant, Bachus, just sarcasm...the latter is so useful, because simply arguing with people isn't nearly as much fun.

What amazes me, is the lack of interest in these instruments (including the Pegasus) here on SZ.

The Wersi forum has all the excitement of "mother's day in an orphanage".

Ian

Just on a quick listen to a couple of mp3s on their site, the acoustic guitar's not to my liking - prefer any of the big three's over it. I thought it was almost like an electric piano in places. The realdrums were alright, though. This was on the Wing V2, which appears to be a hefty beast yet looks to be the most 'portable' of the range. They've priced it well enough, though.

Trouble is, though, I think if you turn up at a gig with a Wersi you're immediately labelled as a Klaus Wunderlich or a Reginald Dixon. That's the hole that Wersi has to dig themselves out of if they're to make any dent in the big boys' market. Unless I hear more mp3s covering styles that the big three demo in their promos, I remain unconvinced.

Gimme some tight funk to listen to and I'll have a better idea of what the V2 is about.

Maybe if we had some decent demos, and even a place to SEE one, they might be of more interest. All the demos I recall seeing reminded me of a Lowery Genie.
Of course I never really searched for any.
DonM

Well, I have asked two SZ members who are owners, and they seem a bit reluctant to post anything here...I've even asked if they could send it to me privately, but no luck.

Certainly the on-line demos I have found aren't really convincing...even the the one we aren't supposed to ask the price of is not what I call a knock-out-of-the-park.

Ian

That's really the problem right there. Wersi talk a great game. But the execution is lamentable . That demo was of no assistance to people understanding the power of that keyboard no matter what the price. All the sounds sounded electronic even the styles which were meant to replicate acoustic instruments sounded electronic. It's a tough sell when you are being encouraged to believe this is the arranger of the future when it sounds so much like the arranger of the past

Wersi is obviously doing something correct as they are still in business & people are buying their products?

I guess they are in business, but only after folding a couple of times. I hope they do well. Competition is always good, especially from an innovative line such as Wersi.
DonM

I see there was a demo posted about the same time I complained of no demos.
In my opinion, what he did sounded o.k. Nothing to make me really want to buy one, although I'm sure it was a short demo, and not all-inclusive by any means.
Not sure why I'm commenting because I'm not in the market, but it is raining and cold so no golf today!

The company went bankrupt 3 times in the last 30 years, the products and the tachnollogy however survived.

Strange since the big Wersi instruments can run vsts you can technically make it sound devine with the right vsts.

But when you talk about the default styles they are not any better then T4 or Pa3x...

90% of Wersi players only use the out of the box stuff, they buy wersi for the lovely organ sounds and styles are mostly seccondary. The 3 wersi players i personally know play lefthand/ righthand / peddals... With mostly drums as accompaniment.

Wersi is mostly organ and seccondary arranger

If only technics would get back into the AK business ...

Again, it's the "perceived value" that buyers see in Wersi, just as the respective buyers in Yamaha Tyros, Korg PA, and Ketron Audya...it's just that people naturally have different ideas of what perceived value means to them.

For some, it's owning a Wersi, with all the bells and whistles and lights, and being able to add them at will, and also, a certain "exclusivity" in ownership.

Yes, they are no doubt stunning values in some people's eyes, though I think the market is rather small...of course, that just adds to the "exclusivity" factor.

It would be nice to get a realistic demo played by one of our own resident SZ'ers who has tweaked and added to his Wersi, and would be only too glad (and rightly proud) to let the rest of us hear what he hears that impressed him so much to invest in the instrument.

Ian

Sweet dreams are those...

It feels however that with technics all innovation left the arranger market.

but aren't many iof the design engineers from technics working at other companies making KB's

Actually the sonic is a great instrument.... Sadly it proves also that oas isnt as open as we want it to be, still you can only use 4 vsts...

Hi Bachus

If you look at the final specification of the Sonic here you will find as well as getting a 13" screen, it can run 16 VSTi & Effects simultaneously. (although I would assume only in expert mode, with the 4 limitation being for the less experienced users)

Bill

Although I started off with organs in the late 70s, by the late 80s technology of all keyboards were moving too slow for me, so I moved over to a total computer based system which was way in advance of any keyboard on the market, (And they still are) and only moved back to an all in one unit when an instrument came out that allowed me to use computer software on-board. (This is the reason no keyboard released so far (Except the Kronos which is effectively a pre-set VSTi player) has had even the slightest wow factor for me, as there is just nothing new in them that hasn’t been out for years in the pro world)

But then that’s just me, and I can understand how those that have not used computer based systems would be impressed by the new arranger keyboard that manufactures release.

Bill

I can understand how someone could be impressed with a total computer based system...and, I can also understand why some would use them, but if you are so impressed by the system you are using, why won't you share it with SZ.

It's like telling us you have a Ferrari, but you won't take your friends for a drive so they can experience it firsthand, and also share in your joy.

But, all we get is Wersi's specifications, features, and how it beats everything else, but we never hear the results of how you use it in your music...just why you do.

I always believed the "Wow!" factor was in how the instrument's features and sounds are used by the player in his music productions...specs can only tell us what the keyboard can allegedly do....the music the owner/player creates on it will tell us what it can actually do.

So far we haven't heard either your or Ensnareyou's Abacus do anything remotely approaching what's been posted here by Korg PA3X, Yamaha Tyros5, or Ketron Audya arrangers, so don't be offended if we are a tad skeptical.


Ian

That may be true, Donny, and they may be responsible for what we see in today's KBs ... but I would think that patents prevent them from DUPLICATING some of the innovations of technics ...
I know I've said this several times before, but down through the years I would get a kick out of reading posts where the writer is wishing his/her KB had a certain feature and thinking - gee, my kn6000 has that ...

Bachus,

The Sonic as Bill states is not limited to 4 VST's, it can do 16. Wersi's "Plug In Host" was setup so the average user could easily install and use four of their favorite VST's. Once installed, the system sees them as native. You simply place presets on any program keys/buttons you specify or scroll through the sounds as a set list. It's quite simple really.

You can load more than 4 VST's in the Abacus, Louvre, Verona, etc., but doing so requires you to load and run them from a different host rather than Wersi's built in host. This is more tricky to set up but not difficult for those saavy with computer based VST programs.

As with any VST based system, how many you can utilize at once is based upon CPU power and RAM. Programs like Omnishpere are memory and CPU hogs and can tax any high end system quickly. Don't expect to run multiple channels of Omnishpere, EW Strings, Hollywood Strings, BFD, and other memory intense programs at once. That isn't viable on any computer platform which is why major film composers dedicate a single computer to ine or two VST's. The fact Wersi allows you to integrate these VST's into OAS is a major plus.

Tony,

Technics certainly was cutting edge and I really enjoyed their TOTL products. It was a sad day when they closed up shop. Had they continued, I'm certain they'd have gone to open format.

The color screen, synthesis features, sequencer, real time controls, and expansion cards were fantastic. I had both the KN6000 and KN6500 expanded and loved them. I had planned on getting a KN7000 but after playing it I didn't see significant enough changes to warrant the purchase. I subsequently went with Wersi and have never looked back.

If Technics were to go back into the keyboard/arranger market I'd definitely give their products strong consideration.

I remember when it was said that Technics was the arranger that other companies looked up to. We had a local Technics dealer who did okay, but he wasn't strong on promoting arrangers as his shop dealt mainly with the Celtic/Scottish music scene, such as fiddles, mandolins, accordions etc.

That was where I first played one, and I remember that it had on-bass chording, and the styles were great, especially the waltzes, which were not too good on the Yamaha at that time.

The styles weren't busy either, but were very musical.

It is a shame Technics have gone...a real shame.

Ian

Bill,


The Kronos was both a step forward as well as a few steps back compared to the Oasys. As a former Oasys owner I truly loved the sound and real time controls of the instrument. What I didn't like was the limited abilities to use it as a full blown workstation as it was touted. I hung around and waited for updates that never came to fruition. Once I saw the writing on the wall I knew Korg was going to pull the plug so I bailed on the Oasys before prices tanked.

It was very sad really. Having owned both the Oasys and Wersi I tried to get Korg to integrate similar features so the Oasys would become a monster. Rather than move forward they decided instead to trickle Oasys features down to lesser instruments to increase sales in lower priced instruments. Whatever the successor of Kronos is I hope its a major step forward. Korg is definitely on the right path.

Ian,

Wersi's specifications aren't what their OAS instruments can "allegedly do", it's what they can actually do. Considering your constant negativity of nearly all brands but your beloved Yamaha, you'd certainly question whether a Ferrari 458 Spider has nearly 600 HP and can go 200 MPH. With that kind of attitude I'm certain even if a mate of yours owned one they'd never offer you a ride.

It behooves you to constantly profess Yamaha as the panacea and other brands inferior simply because you haven't seen or played them all. Still there's no shortage of snide quips, inaccuracies, and baiting from you in an attempt to lessen other brands.

Call me foolish but I'm the type to actually try a product be it an arranger keyboard or a sports car before I can conclude it's not as specified. In some instances specifications can tell a story, such as the Tyros 5 lacking loop and record features for audio styles and a Voice Creator, or a Ferrari 458 being infinitely faster than a VW Beetle. Specifications aren't the end all be all but they are a good basis to make some judgments from.

Most manufacturers, including Yamaha, will usually tout specifications of what a product can do so they can market it to those that want to know and make informed purchase decisions. While not always true, if specifications aren't given about particular features, chances are the product can't or doesn't have those features. The Tyros 5 can't host VST's, doesn't offer 24 Bit 96K recording, doesn't have a large touch screen, doesn't have 16 real drawbars, doesn't support up to 32GB of sample RAM, doesn't offer full synthesis capabilities with real time controls, and can't play audio and sample files from nearly every current file format. If it could, you can be assured Yamaha would have listed that in their specifications and sales brochure.

Why not take the time and make the effort to personally see a particular brand in person before slagging it? If you're unwilling to do so, why not do the prudent thing and zip your mouth shut rather than spew unfounded rhetoric. You'd be doing the Synthzone community a service rather than disservice.

Ensnareyou,

It appears we can surmise by your reply that you aren't going to post anything to show what your Wersi can do.

That is very disappointing.

Thanks anyway.

Ian

Thank you for the link, its obvious that they are still improving the oas system. Not only 16 vsts plus effects, but also you can use the vst effects on the standard wersi instruments. And i agree with you that the 13" touchscreen on the sonic just looks devine.

Is it still possible to use any Yamaha style out of the box on OAS?
Does the native sound system have something comaparable to SA2? (because the native soundsystem is what powers the styles, and for an arranger the most important part of sounding good, is its style section, thats what defines an arranger. And to make those styles sound more dynamic and reallive SA2 or DNC sounds or whatever you call it isa requirement these days)

With the vst improvements you can actually have any high quallity sound possible on your Oas instrument. Just wondering how you bind real time controll to the vst settings, can i assign drawbars to vst instrument knobs/parameters or is it only possible to controll them over the screen? Or can i use an external midi device with knobs to directly controll the parameters on the OAS instrument?

I have allways been interested in wersi, but due to its high prices i never got to own one. But if they ever release a new abacus pro with an attachable 2nd keyboard 76 keys.

I actually am happy wersi is making this come back and hoping that music store can give the brand the marketing it needs, because wersi has a huge advantage on all other major brands now its OAS is finally becomming rockstable and extremely user friendly, and still gaining more features.

Nice demos, sad thing is that a top player like Barta on the Wersi barely makes use of the style feature, and thats what we want to hear.

Hi Bachus

The full details are still a bit sketchy of what it can do, however if you can do it on a Workstation then you can probably do it on the Sonic in Expert mode.

Each voice can have up to 64 layers and (Not 100% sure on this) 51 different effects that can be combined.

Not known if Yamaha style compatibility has been carried over from OAS 7 and Pegasus Wing.

I believe you can route anything anywhere and customise the screen layout per pre-set. (Don’t quote me on this though)

It runs on the latest Windows 8 (64bit) platform.

Hopefully more details will be forthcoming in the near future, including some demos of the finished version, as the sounds of the prototypes are nothing to write home about. (The few that have heard it say the sounds are something else, however as everybody had to sign a non-disclosure agreement we will have to wait and see)

Bill

Bachus,

The advantage of a Wersi is being able to set it up and utilize whatever features you want or need and not be stuck with what you don't want. The factory sounds are great but if you want to take it to the ultimate level, load Kontakt, Omnisphere, or East West VST's in and be done with it. You can use an external ccontroller as well as the onboard Wersi controls and touch screen to adjust VST parameters but you'd need to set that up. For some sound options such as organ expansions Wersi has already set these parameters up for you to make it easier.

Personally I rarely use factory styles unless I'm fleshing out a song for the first time. I find most any arranger styles atrocious no matter what manufacturer be it Yamaha, Korg, Roland, etc.. Wersi is no exception.

You can use Yamaha styles directly with OAA but to get the most out of them you'd still want to set up which sounds they'll play back to sound their best. The same would be true if you converted a Korg style to a Yamaha product.

Music Store is making great strides in updating an already spectacular instrument. The Sonic is pushing the limits of what's available today.

I'd love to see Music Store work with NI, Omnisphere, or East West to directly integrate their VST's so they could make it the best OOTB experience anyone has ever heard. There simply isnt any other arranger that can compete with this technology.

Another thing I'd like to see is a fully integrated audio recorder with at least 64 tracks. The integrated recorder they have now is too limited in tracks. I can of course load a program that has more features but a fully integrated system is more beneficial.

This sounds like a wonderful instrument and uses wonderful, ground-breaking technology. I fear its market is really limited to those relative few who will take the time and spend the money to seek it out, then develop it fully to their own needs.
To be really successful on a large scale, Wersi will most likely have to work on the OOTB package so there is more appeal to a vast market of users, not just the technophobes (and I use this term in a complimentary manner!) Then, they will have to find a way to market and distribute it worldwide.
It seems to me there are some similarities to the Ketron situation, where there is an excellent product that reaches a limited segment of the market.
Hope this makes sense. Go Wersi! Keep up the good work! I am past the point of wanting to make this kind of investment of time and money, but the long-term future of arrangers may well be in the balance, as we grey-beards die off and gracefully exit the market.

I've seen these videos already (I am interested, you know? ), but thanks for the effort.

These sound very good, but, not a lot of Wow, I'm afraid, at least to my ears, and considering these are pretty expensive instruments, the "bang for the buck" seems rather low to me as well, but of course, the purpose behind these keyboards is being able to upgrade using software, and maybe hardware too, and therein lies the value.

That is why I requested hearing the personal instruments used by Billy Abacus and Ensnareyou, as I figured they'd have them loaded up with impressive goodies, such as the VST's that were bandied about here, and some great style demonstrations with conversions with styles from the Yamaha Tyros etc.

Look guys, I'm in no way slagging your keyboards, because, firstly, I haven't heard them to be able to give an opinion, and secondly, and, just as important, I always thought it was a good thing for people to be so interested in the instrument you play (and are very proud of) that they are always asking to hear it.

That's a compliment, guys, yet it appears to make you both defensive, although perhaps I am seeing it wrong.

I have even asked to have these Abacus examples, demos or tunes (whatever you want to call them) sent to me privately, in case there is any fear of some kind of unfair or bad comments, especially by the anti-arranger crew...but was simply refused.

Now, I only play a regular old Tyros4 (and formerly a PSR-S910), but I've been very willing to share music I created on them, both privately and on the forums, and believe me, I don't mind one bit if these Abacus instruments you have blow my arrangers into the weeds.

In fact, with all the impressive specs quoted and the VST's you both have loaded in, I'd be disappointed if they didn't.

These Wersi instruments in the videos definitely "look" impressive, but, unfortunately, most people do not hear with their eyes. And, again, the instruments in the videos do sound pretty darn good, but, again, not much that would make me go Wow!

So, keep your music and your instruments to yourselves, if you wish...my sincere apologies if I seemed to be pressuring either of you into uploading something when you didn't want to, or you felt uncomfortable about in any way.

Best wishes, and happy playing,

Ian

Don, I'm sure you meant technoPHILES (not technophobes) here or perhaps cyberphiles or geeks . BTW, this type of mistake usually comes with advanced age .

chas

For sure, technophobes is the opposite of what I meant to say. Thanks!

As our experts said, Wersi has 2 modes OOTB mode and PRO mode.

All demos are probably done in PRO mode.

But then i dont see a reason why OOTB mode would sound bad, the sound engine is Hypersonic 2, a top knotch product, a VST sample player also build into Cubase as its base soundsource. It supports everything you ever wanted from a sample player like legato play (Super articulation), It comes standard with 1.5 GB of soundsamples but i doubt if WERSi uses them as i think they want to use their own sample set with the typical Wersi sound.

Anyway, someone showed me today how easy OOTB mode works, and it sounds okay on an updated Abacus, but not spectacular, except for the organ sounds, those are absolutely the best.

Yamaha styles still play out of the box, and sound as good as on an S950, so nothing wrong there, and with a little tweaking it really rocked.


True, i am a technophile first and musician seccondary, but it seems the new OOTB system really is easy to get intoo, if you can handle an android device, you can handle this instrument in the easy OOTB mode.



So i got some answers today... but still got even more questions now...

This man somehow got his hands on the Wersi software, he build a computer, added a touchscreen, added 2 keyboards (49 + 61) a pedal board and an interface with some push buttons..

Since Wersi uses standard PC hardware these days, he gets the full Wersi sound out of his handcrafted home organ and the results are remarkable..


I did the same once myself with the open source lionstracs software, it aint that hard, and i know several people(online) that use comparable V-arranger systems, but honestly nothing of those sounded like this..


If i can get my hands on the software i might want to run it on my Windows 8 tablet and see if i can controll it from my Kronos. I allready contacted the man that created the video. Lets see what comes from this.

DiiKii? Say it ain't so.

The best use of a Tyros4 I have seen to date..

Don,

The Wersi is already setup OOTB to do what any other arranger can do and more. Their control surface is excellent and the use of the touch screen, knobs, buttons, and sliders makes it very easy to operate. It's what sets Wersi apart from every other manufacturer that has tried to bring a PC based system to the masses. Only Korg came close with the Oasys but Korg castrated the Oasys by not making it open to third party software. Had Korg made the Oasys truly open as originally touted, I'd have kept mine.

The Wersi Sonic is a huge leap forward with OAS. The sheer CPU power under the hood compared to any other keyboard or arranger is staggering. If Music Store updates the sound library with more sounds and integrates additional VST's as stock, it will be a monster synthesizer/arranger/workstation. I can't wait to see the final specs and hear the finished product.

Please show me what T5 can do better?

Why do you bring up a non open arranger in this topic, arent there currently enough other tyros topics?

i heared an abacus today with oas 7.46 which according to the website of wersi is the latest oas.

Are you telling me that the oas of the sonic is a totally new version not available for other oas instruments?

Sorry, I posted on the wrong topic..

Bachus,

Almost all of the Wersi demo links I posted utilized OOTB sounds in OAS 7. Only some multipad samples, drum sounds, and a few samples played by Robert Bartha seemed to be custom. He's playing a Sonic so it is possible all of the sounds he used are native to the new Sonic. I can identify almost every sound though as stock. I'm sure Bill will concur.

OOTB the Wersi is no slouch. My Abacus Duo Pro has around 1GB of factory sounds. The Sonic will have many more sounds but I'm not sure exactly how many. I'm guessing several Gigabytes or more. Not MB folks, Gigabytes.

My biggest complaints with the Wersi factory sounds are the drums, percussion, and synth sounds. "RealDrum" Audio files are excellent but the stock drum sounds range from ok to good to very good. No worse than what Yamaha offers in their TOTL products. I simply load drum and percussion samples from my Akai library which are fantastic.

The stock synthesizer sounds are excellent but limited in quantity. If you buy the synthesizer package which is around $100 USD, then you'll be set as it not only gives you hundreds of additional sounds, it adds extensive editing and synthesis features to OAS. You'll get expanded FM, Wavetable, Analog Modeling, Sampling, and more. Essentially the synth engines that were native to Sonic Core/Creamware. Give the Sonic Core Minimax, Pro Wave, Profit 5, Vectron and others a listen to understand just how good the synth sounds the Wersi offers are.

Here is a demo of the open arranger MedaStation x-76.

James GREAT Job as always!!..

HI Bachus

The only commonality between the Pegasus Wing OS and OAS7 OS is they can play the same styles, everything else is totally different, that is why options and sound packs for OAS 7 cannot be used directly in the Pegasus Wing (And vice versa) without re-coding to suit the Pegasus Wing OS.

The Sonic again uses a totally new version of OAS which has no connection with OAS7 or the Pegasus Wing OS, apart from being able to play the same styles. (Not sure about Yamaha compatibility though)

The main hardware (Not the computer hardware which is standard PC) of Pegasus Wing, OAS7 and Sonic are also completely different.

Pegasus Wing is an OOTB instrument, and the Sonic in standard mode should be, however OAS7 is not an OOTB experience (Although this is improving with each new update) it just gives you basic setups which you customise yourself. (Exceptions are the option sound and style packs which are set up for OOTB) It’s also the reason that Wersi Direct ships its Songbook software (OTS Song settings) with all new OAS7 instruments so that it can be used OOTB by less experienced users.

Hope this clarifies things

Bill

Dom had a great concept that sadly he decided to pull the plug on. Where the Mediastation failed was the lack of factory sounds and that the user interface was nowhere near as intuitive as the Wersi or Korg Oasys. I tried to convince Dom to work with a third party VST company to offer an OOTB experience that would have been fantastic. I don't think he wanted to incur the licensing fees to do so. By the time he realized better OOTB sounds and styles were needed, the Mediastation had already been slagged by people who never laid hands on one. That hindered the Mediastations sales and ultimately forced Dom's decision to pull the plug on keyboard manufacturing.

Sonically the Mediastation had more dynamic range than my Oasys and Wersi and that's impressive. It really did sound great playing back Giga files. Fran can attest to this.

I had no problems running the Mediastation but an old codger not familiar with VST's or computer software integration would. Still the interface and software updates needed to make it more intuitive never happened.

Dom is a very smart businessman and if my hunch is correct, he sold the Mediastation concept or licensed it to one of the big three to expand further upon and market. Don't be surprised if you see a similar concept marketed by Roland or Yamaha in the near future that's just the Mediastation enhanced and repackaged. I don't think Korg would have purchased it because they already had the Oasys platform to build upon. The Kronos was born from the Oasys.

Time will tell if the Mediastation sees new life from other companies. Dom certainly couldn't say due to non disclosure agreements. Yamaha has benefitted greatly from visionaries in the past, John Chowning and Dave Smith to name but a few. Nearly every Yamaha product after 1983 utilized technology from these two men.

I said my piece about soft arrangers a long time ago, and nothing in the intervening years has changed my opinion.

We ALL play arrangers for one primary reason... convenience.

You can do the same thing or better with many different things, WS's, computers, keyboards and modules, etc.. But nothing comes even CLOSE to the instant gratification and ease of use of the modern hardware arranger. The soundsets are balanced, the styles are balanced, the effects are balanced, and it's all wrapped up in a shell that is easy to use and affordable.

Nothing could be further from this than the all software arranger. Yes, if you have the technical and musical skills, you CAN probably end up with something noticeably better sounding than a hardware arranger. But it's going to cost you a FORTUNE, and take up your every waking moment for months, probably years! It's going to involve multiple computers (it has already been alluded to that many of the best sounding soft synths and libraries have CPU requirements that can choke even the best modern CPU's) and a very technical command of programming.

Now, let's be REALISTIC... How many of us have the entire skill-set to pull all of this off? I would hesitate to say ANY of us, from what I have heard, so far. Sure, you get one of Wersi's top demonstrators, probably with considerable technical help from the factory, and he can pull of a demonstration of what you COULD do with one of these wünderkind behemoths with price tags that make the T5 sound like a cheap PSR!

Now, back to reality... How many of US could do that? Sure haven't heard a single USER demo of a Wersi sound remotely as impressive. In fact, most are quite excremental, poorly played and balanced, and certainly not a good representation of what you COULD do if you had $20,000 to drop. Or actually, maybe it IS... Let's face it, if buying a Wersi made you sound that good, the web and this forum would be bursting with demos that put our Roland's and Korg's and Yamaha's to shame.

But it isn't. They don't.

QED.

Diki,

You clearly haven't played an OAS7 instrument otherwise you wouldn't have concluded what you have. What separates Wersi from a computer based system running softsynths is the way in which the interface acts like any other arranger or workstation. Yes you can delve deep loading in VST's and third party programs if you want to, but that isn't necessary. Out of the box OAS acts like any other arranger. Wersi spent years working on integrating the control surface, real time controls, and touch screen so that anyone can operate their products. After all, their target audience are the elderly who have lots of expendable cash but aren't technically savvy. If the Wersi were difficult to use, it would be a tough sell at $2k let alone $50k. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of users except here in the USA.

Unlike companies such as Neko, Music Computing, Lionstracs, and others who basically threw a PC into a keyboard case, loaded a few VST's, then marketed the product as an OOTB experience but are so convoluted you'd need an engineering degree to decipher them, Wersi actually thought this through. They've spent years doing research, updating software, and getting real world feedback from users which shows in the end product.

While having a PC running various VST's can sonically outperform any hardware arranger or workstation, they aren't intuitive, take up huge amounts of RAM and CPU power, and will cause the average user to pull their hair out trying to integrate it all. What Wersi has done is provided a happy medium between hardware arranger and full blown PC based arranger/workstation. The Sonic takes OAS to a new level but still keeps certain things reigned in so as to be easy to use. Sonic's Expert mode will allow users to utilize it as if it were a straight computer based PC system but I wouldn't recommend anyone do that unless they're highly skilled with PC's, software integration, and external hardware. As you've ascertained, few people have that capability but it does exist inside the Wersi if they feel so inclined to go that route.

I definitely agree most demos by users are often poorly played, poorly recorded and mixed, and rarely show the true power of the instrument be it hardware based or open architecture. The majority of people who buy TOTL arrangers aren't professionals, they're home hobbyists. I do wish Wersi would make professional quality demos but for some reason they don't seem to care what users across the pond think. I guess the sales here are so low as to be inconsequential to them.

Any instrument be it a guitar, keyboard, violin, or drums are merely a catalyst for the player. I could own a Stradivarius, 55 Stratocaster, 1900's Steinway Grand, and all would be pointless in an attempt to make me sound better if I lacked the skills to play them. Truth be told few people have talent that sets them apart from the masses although our ego's would like us to believe otherwise. Those that do can play a cardboard box and their talent will still shine through. For most others we've been lead to believe that XYZ instrument will be the panacea and make us play as if it were a gift from a higher power. Then reality sets in.

Okay, i tought the Sonic would be OAS7 compatible... but its got its totally own improved version.

So they took a step away from their main development goal of one OAS allways upgradable for all their instruments.

I was allready happy with what i saw from OAS7.46.. any improvement to that would be a huge step for Wersi.

I agree and disagree with you..

Yes we want convenience.
No we dont want to be limmited in our possibilities..

So if the top layer of the user interface is very convenient and all you would ever need to play conveniently, what would be wrong with dozens of deep layers to give pros more controll..


I think thats exactly what Wersi is trying to do with their new OS..

convenience at top, and flexibility and expendabillity the deeper you go intoo the instrument.. But my grandpa would still be happy playing the top convenient top layer, while my son would be tweakeing and edditiing every single bit of his setup all on the same instrument.




and sounding good or awesome is all a matter of player skills, if you are a true musician you cant sound less then stellar on the current generation of TOTL arrangers.

Hi Bachus

Yes, Sonic is a new generation of OAS; however OAS7 and the Pegasus Wing will continue to be developed into the future. (R47 for OAS7 should be out anytime soon, and the latest Pegasus Wing update came about 2 weeks ago)

Bill

Didnt know about OAS7 R47, but saw the Pegasus wing update, and i even beleive with Version 2 there is a hardware updated version too..

But having 3 sepperate versions to develope might be more expensive and requiring more resources then just a single one. so there might be less frequent updates, but with software being flexible things will transfer from one version to another with pretty less effort. So the updates might be bigger.


I suppose the Sonic is running under windows 8? would be awesome for the very well integrate touch support under Windows 8.

HI Bachus

It does indeed run Windows 8, and the screen is multi-touch so that you can use it just like a tablet. (No need to buy a separate iPad/Tablet)

You are correct about the frequency of the updates.

The main hardware change between V1 & V2 was that the power supply was bought on-board, rather than a separate power block, (There were also a few minor alterations to the other hardware) however all the updates operate exactly the same. (You can go from basic V1 to the latest V2 R03 by just downloading the latest software and loading it in)

Bill

There is another thing worrying me, the Wersi Sonic was released in Oktober 2012 on the Okay Tastenfestival, its for sale everywhere, yet it seems its still not available and people are still wayting on delivery..

I tried to find out and could not really find someone that got his Sonic delivered.

HI Bachus

It was showcased, not released at the Tatenfestival, as it was not ready for general release, (Hence it still shows yellow traffic lights on the Music Store Website) however production of the finished version has now started (So the information goes) so it should be seen in the wilds in the not too distant future.

Hope this helps

Bill

Bachus,

Welcome to the world of high end boutique instruments. Most manufacturers will announce a product, take preorders, yet not do a production run until enough units are pre sold. In some instances if enough orders aren't received, it goes into a holding pattern or never comes to fruition. I don't think that's the case with the Sonic. Music Store seems quite solvent and they've spent countless hours on R&D for the Sonic. I think they're just trying to get it all ironed out rather than put it on the market prematurely.

Many companies release products to market early to try and recover R&D costs and use the consumer as a beta tester. Unbeknownst to the consumer of course. Wersi generally doesn't release software or products until the platform is quite solid. Given their target consumer are elderly buyers who aren't tech savvy, using them as beta testers would be detrimental to sales. Wersi chooses to error on the side of caution and hold back software releases until they are near bug free which I commend them on.

Even with a complete set of sounds and styles it would have made no difference. Lionstracs should have never build an OPEN Arranger. The market for such a product is far too small to make a business of, and as an Arranger most Workstation users would not look at it.

They should have build a workstation from day one with only the necessary buttons a workstation needs.

The Groove X-R rack unit should have been a major success but unfortunately, events took place that made that impossible to proceed. Same really because that did come with a complete sound set and great out of the box experience.

On the topic of Open Arrangers, that vArranger2 software looks very interesting but it needs it's own complete sound set to give it clear independence away from having to use sound modules.

Regards
James

James,

The Mediastation was a viable product as a workstation and arranger, it's downfall was in the execution. You can't market it as an arranger if you don't supply enough styles and sounds to make most people happy. The average arranger person doesn't do much in the line of programming which is why Yamaha is so successful. They ship their products with enough styles and soumds to keep the average user happy. Dom thought the open architecture would be enough to offer the arranger and workstation user OOTB then they could expand upon the platform themselves. The error in that thinking was that all but a few delve deeply into their arranger or workstation. That left a small percentage of people like yourself and I who would and could use it to our advantage.

Wersi learned long ago that in order to sell a $5k+ instrument to a demographic consisting of mostly the geriatric who aren't technically savvy, they needed an interface that would be so seemless anyone could operate the instrument. The Mediastation had a broad learning curve and many of the features weren't finished by the time Dom released it. In fact it took several years before they came to fruition. By that time the Mediastation's user interface still wasn't intuitive enough to make it easy for the masses. Dom certainly could have rectified the issues with additional updates and a sound/style library, but that would have added to the cost of the instrument. With sales low, rather than pump additiinal money into the Mediastation, he pulled the plug.

By the time the Groove concept was about to go full scale, the bad press on the forums had all but killed the sales. I'm surprised Dom stuck it out as long as he did. He really did believe in the product and rightfully so. In 5 years time, I'm certain open architecture instruments will be widely available from the big three.

My basic system consist of:

Windows 7.
vArranger.
Abeleton Live includes effects (replaces forte as host).
Kontakt 5 Sampler for Main or Right Hand Sounds.

Auto Accompaniment Wavetables (GM, GS, XG, etc.):

Halion Sonic 1.6
Bandstand
VI.One
Colossus
Soundfonts (SGM 2.01, Papelmedia 2006 and many more soundfonts)
Live-Styler (Many GIGA & Soundfonts)

Main or Right Hand Voices:

Grritan (Personal Orchestra, Jazz & Big Band & Orch. Strings)
VI.One
Quantum Leap (Colossus & Brass)
Kontakt 5, Experience & B4II
VRSound (Alto & Tenor Sax & 3D Pipes - Organ)
Bardstown (Piano, Banjo, Guitar, Accordion, Clarinet, etc.)
Cool Vibes by Art Vista
Scarbee Bass
Whole Lotta Country by Larry Campbell
And Others

Antares Harmony Engine EVO (Works well with Abeleton Live but not with Brainspawn's forte.).


i7 Intell Processor
8GB RAM
7200 rpm Hard Drives
M-Audio 1010LT Soundcard

This system works well with my Roland A37 controller keyboard:

You can use the lowest octave for changing variations, fills, etc. Alternatively you can progam all the buttons on the PC keyboard to perform all the arranger controls you want.

There is no noticable delay in playing the notes or changing sounds for both the auto accompaniment (Wavetable is fully loaded or each wave is partially loaded) or the main (right hand voices which are loaded in Kontakt/Abeleton Live-switching channels changes voices, etc.). Now you may from time to time changes all your right hand voices to better suit what your playing say from jazz to country....keep in mind you can load many, many, many, many sounds since it only loads part of each wave within each sound.

I have covered the above in the Software Arranger Forum but I thought you may find this useful here as well.

Frank

Good to see you are still with the software arrangers Frank..


personally i moved away from them about a year ago, when i got a chance to buy an Audya rack at a nice price... I require the OOTB style functionally above the flexibillity of a softarranger. Styles are for when i want to quickly try out something new.

However still using Ableton live, and Cubase with my VSt collection and an akai MPC studio, running everyting on a Windows 8 pro tablet.


My setup is however to big to my likeing..

Kronos
V-Synth GT2
Audya 4 rack
Akai MPC studio
Tablet with the above software.

I would really love to get back to an all in one solution with 2 manualls (no peddals) and most of the above functionallity. and that could be done with an open arranger with good OOTB functionallity, which leaves only one solution these days. Wersi

Bachus,

The only option to even attempt replacing all that gear in an all in one solution is the Wersi Sonic. A Verona, Abacus, or Louvre will almost get you there but to run more than 4 VST's at once, you'd have to forego the Wersi VST host which I don't recommend.

I've never thought of upgrading until I saw the specs on the Sonic. That might get me to move up from OAS7. I won't know for sure until I hear and see more of the Sonic. Wersi definitely has the edge when it comes to pushing the limits of today's technology.

The only other keyboard I've considered in the past 5 years is the Fairlight CMI30AX. Unfortunately it's on hold right now with no definite date for delivery to market. The FPGA processor the Fairlight utilizes is unrivaled in both processing power and sheer audio quality. If you've never heard the Fairlight CC1 card in person you can't fathom how great it sounds. Truly the pinnacle of digital audio.

So much i realised since you guys introduced it to me in this post..

On a side note however, i dont have nothing at all with the pedalboards and would never use them, even worse, they would be in my way. So i would prefer something like the old abacus with just the 2 keyboards but withouth the pedals.

which also makes me wonder if i would be able to use my ableton somewhere on the Sonic (i guess not). Or use other pc connected hardware with the Sonic.

another point is that i dont want to miss my Kronos, its just such an awesome beast. Before i saw the new Sonic, i was thinking of selling the Audya rack and the V-synth and replacing it with a T5... and a huge 30" touchscreen for my PC setup.

Now i am in doubt as usuall, ..

So, if these Wersi's are so good, why does most of the music I have heard played on them by people OTHER than factory demonstrators sound so bloody awful?

You know, I bet that the vast majority of drivers that bought a Bugatti Veyron aren't capable of driving them safely at the 250mph+ that they are capable of reaching. In fact, check out the googles, and find shot after shot where owners wrote them off at quite modest speeds!

The point being, although it might be POSSIBLE to make great sounding music on a $20k+ Wersi, seems like few actually do... Personally, I think it is the complexity of the VSTi system that is the primary roadblock. It seems, in demo after demo, that users of TOTL all hardware arrangers don't seem to have much problem posting something quite impressive as soon as they get one. Wersi owners?

Crickets chirping.

There are probably 100 times as many yamaha instruments then Wersi instruments... which means for every 100 yamaha owners posting their music here, there would be one Wersi musician...

Please show me the 100 Yamaha musicians posting their music here on a regular basis?

There are a few good wersi musicians posting on Youtube... but none of them using the Sonic as that one isnt available yet.<

Ya gotta have guts to post anything here! Or be like me and really don't give a poop what pleases some of them
The good thing about posting here is that you will usually get at least a couple of honest responses, so you might learn something. Just heaping praise on something that may or may not be worthy doesn't really help.
I've been guilty of doing that sometimes, but normally I won't say anything unless I feel what I say is constructive, or if I think it's really good.
I would much rather be silent than hurt the feelings of someone who took the time and trouble to post his music, which is our passion. Thin line, huh?

But, there's no shyness about giving opinions of someones performance probably from someone less qualified,
just sayin' ...

Diki,

Most arranger players are merely hobbyists, beginners, or just do it for fun. Few people's playing skills, whether they call themselves pro's or not, is stellar and that's reality.

Contrary to what you state, I find few demo's posted by hardware arranger owners of reasonable quality and no better or worse than any open arranger user demo's. With the exception of those done by professional demonstrators which seem to be of high quality in both playing and audio quality. If I were to base my product buying decisions on the majority of end user demos, I'd be hard pressed to ever purchase those products demonstrated.

For me the power and flexibility of an open arranger is what I want and need. While I agree that computer based arranger software utilizing VST's can be a logistical nightmare to setup and operate, that simply isn't the case in a hardware/software based Wersi. Wersi has taken the use of VST's and made it simple to use with the built in VST host. I've stressed this before but you and others don't seem to grasp this concept. If the Wersi were complicated and didn't do what it was intended to do, I'd ditch it much like I did my 9000 Pro and Korg Oasys. If the Wersi were difficult to use, their primary purchasing demographic (the elderly), wouldn't take well to it.

Whether Bill, Bachus, Frank and I are the few who get and understand the power, versatility, and incredible sound quality of a VST capable system, we're ok with that. For you and others who choose to be so myopic, technology will eventually force itself upon you. Whether you like it or not, open based hardware arrangers and workstations are destined to be the norm one day. For now I'm content to be as you call it, a very capable Veyron driver while others are driving their VW's.

I am not unaware of the power of VSTi's. Heck, I've been using them for studio production virtually since they came out!

But... Let's be honest here. At one end of the scale are studio producers and musicians, who want the highest sonic results possible, and are not confused or intimidated by considerable complexity. Then, at the other end of the scale, is the vast majority of arranger players, who not only want operational simplicity, but also want to basically hold down a chord with one hand, play a melody with the other, and that's about as far as their musical creativity goes..!

What all this talk about open arrangers fails to really address is how you CAN achieve FAR better results than an arranger IF you can firstly, play your ass off, then have a mastery of the software to bend that to your will. Find me ONE top 40 hit played on an arranger. You can't. The PRIMARY use of an arranger is to give us near-professional sounding backing with next to no effort. The problem really starts when you decide to use gear not really designed to be used in an arranger setting to do the job that gear that is really specialized to do that. IMO, it is just not a good fit.

On the one hand, if you want TRULY pro music, you won't go near an arranger, or at least only use it for the rough. Then you'll replace nearly everything the arranger did (if you even used one in the first place) with real playing and high quality VSTi's. And, after a day or so of programming and playing, you've got ONE tune.

Now, let's look at how the vast majority of people use an arranger. They switch it on, they call up a style, probably hit the OTS, and start playing immediately.

Two more different work-flows cannot be imagined. And the gear that is optimized for each does a terrible job of the other.

Truth is, the only thing I hear that is amazing about some of the Wersi clips is the talent of the presenter. And I am also convinced that, give them a PA3X or a T5, they would amaze equally... Only then they would be amazing on something $20,000 less than the Wersi! I'm sorry, but if you have to pay an extra $15,000+ to sound even slightly better than a TOTL hardware arranger, it is no wonder these things are rarely heard in the hands of talented musicians. They are mostly heard in the untalented hands of extremely rich people with more money than talent, or, if the truth be known, common sense!

Thats a very shallow statement, yet correct for 90%.....

However the reason i love to toy around with vsts is because they much more allow me to tune and change my mainhandsound in real time trough the use of sliders and knobs... Its the whole synthesizer idea, and it just does not work that well on most arrangers.


It works great however on open arrangers, as vsts can very much be controlled in real time.. For many people espescially arranger players, making music is not about performing for an audience... Its about finding those very relaxing moments while playing music letting them relax from a hard stressfull day at work. And if playing with sounds is part of it. So be it.


Yet it does not require vsts my Kronos also allows me a lot of this freedom, playing my kronos mainsound on top of audya accompaniment is quite nice.

Hi Diki

The price is not an issue, as they are all part of the organ range, and if you look at the Orla, Lowrey, Roland, Bohm organs etc. the Wersi are fully price competitive. (It’s a different market to the arranger market)
Wersi’s only true arranger is the Pegasus Wing which has all the easy play features, but more limited controls and features, thus the cost is considerably less than a TOTL Arranger from the Yamaha, Ketron etc.

As I have said many times I ditched organs/arrangers in the late 80s and went over to a full computer based system, (I started using Midi almost as soon as it had come out in the early 80s) and if Wersi (Or another manufacture) had not come out with an instrument that could have the software on-board I would still be using a fully computer based system. (Downsides are that you cannot have it in the lounge without complaints, whereas a Wersi you can have it in the lounge with no complaints)

Bill

It is probably not difficult for an hobbyist having a $20,000 arranger and other expensive recording gears to make a good demo of the arranger's styles like this one made by Frankieve

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_cw98ardXI

If youare talking about $20.000 instruments from wersi..

They are not arrangers but Organs. There is a huge difference in price between a simple Arranger and a majestic organ..

The Wersi TOTL arranger is much cheeper then a tyros, an Audya or a pa3x, tough admittedly, its not an open arranger, but still a TOTL arranger.

What is an organ, but two manuals and some pedals? $15,000 MORE, just for that?

Give me a break!

Let us also not forget, you are on an ARRANGER forum. Go off to an organ forum if you want to argue about whether $20,000 is good value for one of those. In the arranger world, it is a very bad joke!

I also think you are being extremely optimistic that 10% of arranger users would appreciate and be able to utilize the full power of an OAS $20,000 'organ'. Me, I'd put it at well under 1%. And, TBH, it appears that not ONE of this 1% ever posts here. Just proud owners too shy about their skills to post anything that supports their arguments. I'm sorry, but if dropping $20,000 doesn't give you results you are willing to put up alongside the numerous user demos of Yamaha's, Korg's and Roland's (not to mention Ketron!), just exactly how good is it?

Maybe Synthzone can start a 'General Furniture Forum' for those that think $15,000 extra is worth it for something a hair less ugly than a T5? LOL

If you would have read all posts, you would have known why organs are so much more expensive to produce... I.e. Not being able to produce them at a factory line..

Sad thing however that it indeed is the same technollogy as in the much cheeper production line total arrangers. Same goes for top of the line digital pianos, same technollogy, and even for synth workstations..

Don't see any reason this is a sad thing!

I'm pretty sure, you want some fancy furniture for your living room, buy a T5 or another TOTL arranger, a lower MIDI keyboard and a set of pedals, and then give $15,000 to a furniture maker. He'd be only TOO happy to make you something pretty!

Adding VSTi to vArranger now

I'll tell you something:

If the implementation of VSTi will be comprehensive and will cover as many as the options is possible (even centered it around one particular VSTi) this could really bring the new era in arranger world! It's not gonna be able to compete right immediately with TOTL arrangers, but it will come.

I see it like that at least - I wish a could have a software arranger that will play my favourite style with my favourite sounds!

So, keep up the good work!

Adi

if they build an arranger around NI komplete 9, with an open interface to program your own styles, then it could work...