Komplete 9 Ultimate information link






Its a whopping 370 Gb , but if anyone ever wants to create a software arranger that works, it should be build around this soundset, everything you ever wished for is in there. And if not samples and instruments can be easilly added.

Its as good as it gets for under $1000...

So if you wonder where Yamaha got the ensemble idea from, just watch the video, soundquallity is out of this earth.



(its not that the current arrangers fail at what they want to archieve, but there is allways more to wish for)

Great stuff but, who is gonna teach it to the masses the average player has no idea what all this stuff is including myself..

Thats very true, maybe thats my burden, being an ict professional that happens to play arrangers and synths in his spare time.

Hi Dnj

It’s not quite as bad as it seems, pop over to Native Instruments and download the free Kontakt Players here and install it on your computer.
Pop over to ASIO4All and download the ASIO4all driver here and install it on your computer.
Connect the line output of your computer to the input of your keyboard
Connect the USB Midi cable from your keyboard to the computer
Run Kontakt 5 (It will be showing on the desktop) and follow the instructions to add the Yamaha for Midi In and ASIO4all for audio out. (You will only need to do it once)
Select Midi Out on your keyboard
Select a sound from the Kontakt 5 menu
You can now play any instrument loaded into Kontakt 5 with your right hand.
The more advanced stuff can come later

Bill

Bill, Donny doesn't have to go anywhere...he has MixCraft6...it was shipped with a dozen great VST's and the program is a great "wrapper"....He just has to widen his approach and try it for himself..

Once he plays the VB3, or Lounge Lizard..he will understand the short comings of the sounds he is use to..


I should add...I like many of the sounds I use on my G70...but when I play the MS using the Giga samples..like the Saxes, orchestral etc..I have to shake my head in the comparison...

Samples that are 1 gig in size are far superior to a 192mg library of sounds..

Fran is correct the MIXCRAFT 6 program is awesome...
heres a free trial download.

http://www.acoustica.com/mixcraft/download.htm

The true test of a software sound library for arranger use is, can you substitute one sound with any other sound, and not have to do anything to it to have it sit right in the mix...

Most arrangers, you replace an acoustic piano with an electric one (a spur of the moment thing while you are playing, just for a change!) and there is no difference in volume. Replace one string sound with a synth pad, same volume... Etc., etc..

Replace one drum kit with another, same sounds on the same notes, roughly the same volume and dynamics.

This is something few sampled libraries bother with. You've got extensive work to do to balance things to the point where, if you call something up on the fly, it isn't going to jump out and bite you, or disappear into the mix.

Then you have the preset effects... same issue.

We've gone over the whole software sound banks/software or hardware arranger thing a bunch of times. So far, nobody has shown us anything that doesn't involve either serious compromise in what you can do on the spur of the moment (probably why you bought an arranger in the first place), or herculean work to set the software up to be as balanced and even as most arrangers are.

Most modern arrangers have thousands of sounds, dozens of drum kits, and they ALL sound great OOTB. You are going to have to do all that work yourself if you go with a software sound library...

Too much work for me, I'm afraid! Modern arrangers sound pretty damn good already - I'm not convinced the enormous amount of work to balance an entire software soundset is worth the gain in realism. If you just want a few sounds to expand the arranger's soundset, I guess it's OK, but if you want to replace the thousands that modern arrangers provide, better be prepared for a ton of work..!

The only problem with Native Instruments, is that you can't change sounds by sending a MIDI Bank/Program Change message.

Diki,

That's absurd. No arranger or workstation OOTB is setup to change any sound on the fly and have it sit in the mix as you wish with no change in volume, fx, etc. You're dreaming if you think your Roland or any other keyboard does this. You may find some sounds can be changed without much difference, but most or all, utterly impossible. If that were the case you wouldn't even need to mix a songs various parts. Step into reality.

Setting up a VST on a Wersi is no herculean task nor is it difficult to switch sounds on the fly. The Wersi allows you to place VST sounds in program buttons as if they are part of the factory setup. You could go from VST to Factory sound to Akai sample or organ banks and never know which sound is being produced by which engine. Unless of course you checked. It's all pretty seemless.

Every synth, keyboard, arranger, fx device, or other studio gear I've owned I've tweaked to do what I want it to. To presume OOTB they're all going to conform to my needs would be ridiculous. What would be the point of programmability if these things were setup so perfectly from the factory?

I disagree that most keyboards today have great sounds and drumkits that come close to any great VST. Listen to BFD or East West Orchestra and Choirs and show me one keyboard from the big three that can match or rival those. You're not going to find any that come close. Hell, show me any arranger from the big three that rival my Fairlight CMI III drums and I'll be amazed. Sad when near 30 year old technology still makes modern TOTL arranger drums sound like crap.

Modern keyboards may offer more features and polyphony than their vintage counterparts, but sound quality is one thing that hasn't seemed to advance much in most arrangers compared to the best keyboards of 20 and 30 years ago.

Good points Diki, however no one has ever said about replacing all the sounds in an arranger, just using VSTi to enhance what is already there. (Just the same as adding 3rd party samples)

Adding 3rd party samples will always require editing to match what is on-board (Even simple Akai samples) however once setup and saved (Which with the basic adjustments required does not take long) it becomes as if part of the instrument.

Drum Kits take a bit more work due to manufactures choosing different mappings, however all Drum VST make it easy to swap the mapping around to suit, (Much easier than on your typical arranger) so again not major.

The only users that would have problems adding VSTi would be those that only use the OOTB settings, those that tweak their arrangers to suit will take to it like a duck to water.

It’s only the fear of the unknown that puts people off, but once you get past this you are fine. (You should try it Diki, as when you get over your fear of using them with an arranger that has the VST Host fully integrated, you will wonder why you ever bothered trying to put people off)

As to modern arrangers, (From any manufacture) you’re always criticizing them in features and sounds, so they can’t be that good.

Bill

Hi Dan

In that case I am doing the impossible on my Abacus as that’s how I change the sounds with my NI products. (One of the advantages of having an integrated Host, however after having said that I can do the same with Midi Out)

Perhaps you haven’t got round to using Multis yet, (These also load all the sounds you have setup on start-up so there is no delay when switching sounds) plus products like FM8, Absinthe etc. have it setup as soon as you load it in.

Bill

In my view this forum is called 'general arranger keyboard forum' but the VST chit-chat has nothing to do with kb's!
Machines that can run VST's more or less are ordinary computers (PC's) that can even run Windows Office
The only 'connection' is MIDI.

It's pretty weird some guys think they do better tweaking than dozens of professional engineers.

I totally agree with Diki.

This thread currently has 548 views so people are interested, also the open arranger thread (Which can be related to this thread) has 1588 views.

Bill

Wersi arrangers run VSt´s, so they are directly related to arrangers. We are discussing yamaha expansion packs and sounds overhere, you can see VST´s as sound expansions for Wersi.

Also mediastaion runs VST´s but we never knew if it was an arranger or a synth workstation or somehting in between. They seized production, i think when they realised that they didnt have the required budget to hire top level sound engineers.


I still am convinced, vsts will have a future in the instruments of the future including TOTL arrangers. many vsts work as intuitive as setting sounds up on a tyros keyboard arranger.


But maybe you should stick to the 581 Tyros5 topics if you are not up for this discussion.

Sometimes, in an arranger track there is a program change message.

Of use a flute in variation 1, a brass in variation 4...

vArranger sends Program changes, but what your NI VST will do?

Adding VST to a keyboard is the same as adding a separate tone module in my view - and why not - and why not discuss it here?

Big plus - adding new sounds without needing to buy a new keyboard.

Bill G

Hi Dan

I will use Kontakt as an example:

Assuming you have a suitable Flute & Brass sound set up in a Multi, then you can just switch between them using the bank/program change instruction the same as if using the on-board sounds, any sound modifications can be done automatically by cc codes when you select the sound. (I name my voices in the VST Host the same as the VST sound (For convenience) and program them with the appropriate Bank/Program change code, (And if required cc codes) then save it in the OAS database, thus it becomes just like selecting any on-board sound from the OAS database, and I can also do the same with Midi using the Midi Sound Banks)

Example: I have Kontakt setup in my host, (It could be any host) with Piano on program 001 & Guitar on program 030, from the arranger edit panel I just select the voice I want to change then select the voice I want to change it too from the VST Sound list (Self-Created) and the appropriate sound from the VST (Piano) for variation 1 is automatically selected, then for variation 4 I select the Guitar, I now save the style as a user style, and when I choose the style with variation 1 the VST Piano is automatically selected and played, and when I switch to Variation 4 the Guitar is automatically selected and played, there is no delay as the Multi has the sounds already loaded in.

Hope this helps

Bill

I'm with Bill G. on this one.

Adding sounds to an arranger can take place in various forms, so there's certainly nothing wrong with discussing it here. I find it very interesting.

It would be especially beneficial if we could actually hear how these VST's sound/work in the owner's instruments mentioned above...Wersi Abacus for example.

However, since some users are, by their own admission, stronger "tweakers" rather than "players", it's perfectly understandable that demos may not be forthcoming.

Thanks for the link to Native Instruments and the free Kontakt Player, Billy Abacus.

Ian

If you want to know how vsts sound, listen to any demo of that vst on youtube.

If you want to hear a vst incorporated in a style, goos luck, even on arrangers like wersi OAS, v-arranger, lionstracs... Styles use the default sounds because they are ballanced for these styles.

Altough wersis sound source has allways been a vst ( hypersonic 2 nowerdays) . And in that case you will find out that for samplers and sample players its allways the quallity of the samples that counts as these days there are no bad samplers anymore...

As for hypersonic 2 it supports layered sounds and legato play in the same way as yamaha Sa and sa2 voices.


VSTs are mostly used for mainhand piano and solo voices. I currently have an audya rack / korg kronos/ V- synth/ PC VST setup. And i never felt the need of adding any vst/kronos/vsynth sound to the audya arrangements. Because the audya is not the ideal system to throw style tracks over midi out....

And as said before, most wersi players are real organ players and prefer lfthand rghthand peddalboard with just a drumtrack in the background.

Thanks Bachus. I was hoping to hear either Billy's or Ensnareyou's Abacus or the newer model of it, playing these samples in the styles and the right and left hand.

Even just playing the styles alone, without RH, but playing a few chords, and perhaps some inversions.

I understand your post, and appreciate the explanation, but I have to say, I'm a bit disappointed as those involved in this thread are very enthusiastic about them on their personal instruments.

But, I always say, "There's no harm in asking...the worst that can happen is that the answer will be 'No'"

I can live with that, no problem.

Thanks again,

Ian

Bill, how many sounds can you load in a multi in kontakt?
This will be your sound module

Hi Dan

A Multi can have 128 sounds per bank, but am not sure about the maximum number of banks. (I have never needed more than 16)

NOTE: The total number of sounds that can be loaded at one time will be determined by how much Ram memory you have in the computer, the speed of the HDD and the size of the samples.

Hope this helps

Bill

problem with these software synths is always the latency. Sure it's simple to install the crap and load in a driver, hook up the midi.. but for live play, the latency (ie. the time it takes for an actual sound to be heard from your speaker set after you pressed a key on your keyboard/midi controller) tends to be too many milliseconds for these to be of any real use. ASIO compatible sound hardware is of course mandatory, but even so, latencies will vary hugely. You need to invest in very expensive dedicated sound hardware to get near-zero delay.

I get near zero latency with 99% of new windows 7/8 computer and the vArranger SF2 virtual synth. without dedicated sound card !

Bill, can you load big soundfonts with Kontakt, and it will select the sounds immediately by program change?

Latency has never been an issue for me on my Wersi. Probably the reason Wersi utilizes a fast CPU and decent amount of RAM. In addition OAS 7 does run a custom Scope card as its sound engine which has its own processors as well, therefore minimizing taxing of the PC's CPU.

Be advised... All VST's aren't created equal and some can be major CPU hogs taxing even the fastest CPU's. This is why you don't get crazy and try and run too many of these VST's in your system. Just because you have a VST host that supports 16 or more VST's, don't be foolish enough to believe you're going to run that many at once and not have issues, latency inclusive.

Hi Dan

It will import Soundfont 2 (sf2) however as it is not native to Kotakt there may be some work involved.

Yes, once the soundfont is stored in the Database it can be selected like any other.

I suggest you download the free Komplete Players here as it includes the full manual in various languages.

Hope this helps

Bill

With the right asio drivers lattency is acceptable, still there but not noticable under windows..


However if you want to have real time processing, and thats what you want in a system like this, you either want to use VxWorks (Most embeded systems use this) or a real time enable Linux Kernel. Since under VxWorks you would never be able to run VST's all that leaves us with is Linux or MAC OSX (which is nothing but a shell on top of a Unix kernel) and those VSt's that run natively (Not those that require WINE)


What i meant to say, that you can not garranty low lattency under windows when there is a high system load, you can however guarrantee them under a Linux/Unix kernel that is patched for real time processing.

Adding a VSTi to flesh out an arranger is one thing, but using a VSTi to be the ENTIRE sound source for something like vArranger is another kettle of fish altogether.

This is where the months (if not years) that the hardware arranger makers spend balancing the sounds in an arranger pays off. I totally disagree with the earlier denial that arranger's soundsets are not well balanced already. And I will happily reach for any sound in my BK-9 in the middle of a performance, and not have my heart in my mouth that it will come out the speakers like a foghorn, or be inaudible. I challenge you to be able to do that with ANY full VSTi without massive work, if you want to be able to call up any sound in its library.

I can take any piano part, and replace it with any other piano, any string patch and replace it with any other, take a clarinet and change it to a flute, etc. etc., and I NEVER have to touch the volume slider for the Part. And that includes the MFX too! About the only thing that can bite me are some of the lead guitar patches, where the MFX amp sim boosts it a lot (to sound guitaristic, it pays to lower the guitar level and let the MFX do the work on a lower level signal).

I can take a style done on the rock drums, press a button, and now it's on a brush kit, or a techno 909 type kit, and I don't have to touch a thing. Try that on a VSTi OOTB.

Diki,

A completely VST PC based instrument would be and is a complex undertaking I wouldn't recommend to all but a few. The Wersi is nothing like using a PC based VST arranger and if it were, I'd never have purchased it. Although I use computers every day and make my living using the tools that run on them, I despise them. They're unintuitive, complex, and unless flanked by the appropriate sound cards, outboard gear, and ancillary gear, they sound like sh@&.

On my Wersi the VST's I'm hosting run as if they are native to the instrument. I save sounds to the same locations as factory sounds and simply switch between them as you would on your hardware arranger. Comparing the Wersi to a PC based system is like comparing Yamaha's OS to Roland's OS.

So... if it's so good, let us hear YOU play it...

Theory is one thing. Practice is another.

Some of you guys should really stop pushing people to post their music if they obviously dont feel confident enough about their playingskills...

This will lead to nothing, espescially since everyone overhere knows that the only way to get a good feeling about an instrument is by playing it yourself over a longer periode of time

I agree. It proves nothing and hints at bullying. I have heard at least 20 versions of 'Round Midnight by Monk himself, and haven't liked any of them; still, he composed it and it's one of my absolute favorite songs. So I don't think Monk is going to prove anything about his composing skills based on his playing skills. JMO, though.

chas

Strangely, the people apparently SO insecure about their own playing skills don't seem to lack ANY confidence that their equipment is superior to the task. I am simply interested in what gives them that impression.

If somehow, so far, this apparently unarguable edge that the VSTi arranger gives you doesn't translate to at least COMPARABLE user demos, just how good is it? And how seriously are we expected to take those that on the one hand brook no argument that it isn't the way to better music making, yet on the other hand, seem incapable of providing anything other than factory and pro demos (by people that could easily make ANYTHING sound great) to bolster their viewpoint..?

If you ask me, the only bullying going on is by those that want to give THEIR equipment the laurels for being the best out there, but refuse to actually let it be heard in their hands.

Are you & Chas included in this also? just sayin..

I've posted more, and more recently than you, Donny.

One tune. That's all it took.

And, if you reread chas's post, you might see that he was arguing AGAINST asking posters to back their points.

Ok diki whatever ...the point being here its 99% talk and 1% posting anything people play....why? who knows...other forums its the opposite like PSR tutorial, etc,....go figure...

Be nice if the 99% of talk had any real world examples.

BTW, nice 'teenage' response of 'whatever' when reality reared its ugly head in this conversation..!

These Wersi instruments, owned by Ensnareyou and Abacus, will have the dubious distinction of being two of the alleged best sounding instruments we have never heard.

Ian

didn't you know Im young at heart?...

We all knew Donny, but thought you were too modest to admit it.

Age is whatever YOU think it is.
You are as old as you think you are.

My Uncle Jim used to say, "You are only as old as the woman you feel."

Exactly. It's just numbers. Here I am at 70 and really don't think much differently from when I was 30. Still banging it out and lovin' it.

73 and still singin to the ladies, sailing and drinking Margarettas.

Gary

Well, I'm sure as heck feeling it. Some days every bone in my body is stiff, except one.
Too many years of being a jock I suppose.

... hey, wait a minute ... I resemble that remark ...

You know, we go into these NH's and see people, some of whom may be younger than ourselves, sitting in wheelchairs or tottering around with walkers, etc. and it sure brings you to the realisation of how fortunate we are to still be able to do the thing we love best. Rock 'til ya drop, that's my motto.