The free updates is a splendid thing, your only competitor has everyone upgrade for a lot of money to a new version almost 2 times a year ( live styler ) ...

The Wing is not a full open system, is it? How much is the Abacus Pro, upgraded to run the latest motherboards, and OS?

Let's not pretend that Wersi haven't got hugely expensive arrangers on their books... Sure, include the price of its least capable arranger in with the prices of the majors' MOST expensive, but be honest and put the Abacus in there for some perspective!

My Roland can be upgraded with software too... in fact, it has already had two upgrades, for FREE, that added significant new features that weren't on the original at all, plus it has an expansion capability to virtually double the sample ROM (although they have yet to release anything for it, probably due to those reorganization blues). In many ways, modern 'closed' arrangers aren't nearly as 'closed' as they used to be.

Sure, get a Yamaha and your odds of them adding anything at all to the OS are pretty slim, but everyone else is pretty good at adding stuff at no cost.

I'm afraid the open or closed thing, for me, isn't really a cost issue. It's a functionality issue. Until an open arranger BETTERS a closed arranger on ALL fronts (not just a better piano or drums, but everything better, including choice) it is going to face a hard uphill battle. I don't believe that ONE really great piano is enough. There's a REASON there are at least a half dozen different ones in most TOTL arrangers (most MOTL arrangers, if the truth be told, too!). If one was enough, don't you think the majors would have simply used the entire ROM memory for all the different ones, and made one that was significantly better?

I think you are going to see how, once this comes to fruition, that the sound of one drum kit, one piano, one guitar, bass, whatever, after a short time is going to become boring and make everything sound the same. While the exact opposite is what seems to be the (very well researched) direction the majors are going in.

Once again, you are banging into what Dom had problems with. When the styles you play are written for a Yamaha, with 1,500 sounds and more, with 50 kits or more, playing them all into the same generic soundset is going to result in less than favorable comparison. Then add the Ketron styles, the Roland styles, the Korg styles it may be able to play, and you compound the problem. It isn't just a matter of mapping. It is a question of EQ, of velocity curves and filter curves matching, or how each sound interacts with the others to prevent one from overpowering the other.

Then you are going to have to deal with the issue of a style asking for a sound you haven't got around to, yet... What does it do? Do you create custom templates to call up a different sound that you do have, and how well is that going to work?

For the old legacy styles, from back in the good old GS/GM days, yes, you can probably get away with a smaller basic sound selection, because those styles were WRITTEN for an arranger with a small sound selection..! But throw anything from the last ten years at it, styles written for the thousands of sounds in a modern arranger, it is going to be quite a different story.

I still think your best bet is to collaborate with one of the really big sample houses, license a version of something like Colossus, and then spend forever tweaking it so all the sounds are balanced OOTB. Then MAYBE you've got something that a home user can plug his modern BK style, or T5 style, or PA3X style into and it maybe sound almost as good as the original. Without him having to do hours of tweaking to make it work...

Because, if that's what it is going to take to make it sound better than a closed arranger OOTB, he's never going to adopt it.

You’re missing the point Diki, if you help Dan (Instead of placing obstacles in the way) you will get the arranger that you want, it may take a few years (The big boys started out small) but it will be what everybody wants, which is something the big boys will never provide until they get their backside (Butt) kicked.

The Abacus cannot be included as it has not been made for 4 years or more, (It is not a current model) it is also an organ/arranger (Hand built out of Wood and Steel, not on a production line like arrangers) and the price matches its direct competition, (Organs) it was never designed to go head to head with dedicated hardware arrangers, however it does offer the flexibility that users of hardware arrangers can only dream of. (It’s not for everybody (Particularly if you’re a one button press does everything for kind of person) but for those that want more it is there, or at least it was until it was discontinued)

If you have a 2000 Abacus the upgrade price to the latest hardware and software, including a 10” Touch Screen and a genuine 4 port USB 2 system plus DVD Burner, is less than it is costing users to upgrade from a T4 to a T5. (If the prices on the Yamaha forums are correct)

The latest OAS 7 software is also continuing to be developed, even though the OAS organ system is over 14 Years old. (How many manufactures provide that without forcing you to buy a new keyboard every 3 years or so to stay up to date?)

Don’t get me wrong, if a hardware board came out that allowed me to have what “I” want, at the right price, and was better than what I have, then I would have no qualms in changing, however currently there is nothing on the market that comes close.

Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

I'm not sure you are getting my point, Bill. The IDEA of an open arranger is just fine. But the execution of the parts takes far more skill and patience than most manufacturers AND their customers are willing to find.

It's all well and good to have a software style player, but that is almost the easiest part. The really hard part is the sounds, and the styles that optimize the use of the sounds.

I am sure that simply articulating these issues isn't putting roadblocks in Dan's way unless his business model relies on uninformed customers buying into it unaware of the potential pitfalls!

And, while it may be nice that bringing a ten year old Abacus up to modern specs may only be a thousand or so (presumably what T4 to T5 guys are losing) it still doesn't acknowledge the ten grand or so it cost in the first place! That will pay for a LOT of model upgrades if you trade in one closed arranger for the next one out... Way I figure it, if you went from every Tyros to the next and lost a grand in the process, you'd still have another five more model changes to go through (Tyros10, anyone?!) before you broke even with the TCO of the Abacus. Not to mention the extra thousands you will have needed to get some of the best VSTi's made (not much point buying the world's most expensive arranger, and then putting cheap freeware VSTi's in it, is there? LOL).

NI Complete, $500. ILIO Ocean Way Drums, $1800. BFD2 $300. Spectrasonics Omnisphere $499, Trilian, $279. It's all too easy to blow a huge wad of cash putting the best in these things... and what's the point of them if you DON'T load them with the best?!

I remember when Dom was here, touting the MS, and you were enthusiastic about the idea. I put up the same arguments, and they panned out exactly as I predicted. Maybe I was the 'roadblock' to his success, but TBH, reality vs. optimism was.

Dan will make it or fail despite anything I say here. But reality vs. optimism waits, lurks in the wings for him too.

I hope he succeeds where others have failed, but I'm not betting the farm on it!

A little late jumping on the train...

Dan2000,

As I understand it, you need to have a robust and ready sound set to provide your customers with, one that has all the qualities explained here before: Good sound quality, consistency, lots of instruments, editable etc.

One thought, forgive me if I am being naive here, or if you've already done it: Ever questioned Steinberg for Hypersonic 2 engine and sounds? It sounded very very good to my ears some years ago, it had lots of different instruments, was loading very fast and it could operate on 16 channels simultaneusly. It is now for a long time a discontinued product. Maybe you could grab some kind of license for a bargain and build from there, instead of trying to recreate a whole new palette of sounds from scratch?

I remember your very first post here, and I have to congratulate you for coming this far.

Its what Wersi uses in OAS7 hypersonic 2 engine... For their own sounds. And it was a great product for sure and would still be quite usably... But there are more good products available in the vst world, that would fit Varranger quite well.

Diki, picking prices out of the sky to try and emphasize a point is always doomed to failure.

Looking back the average price of the TOTL keyboards Tyros, PA1x, G70 and SD1 the Abacus was approximately £1100 more than the average £2500 of the others, so not a great big price gap as you try and make out. (Wersi upgrades have also not been as expensive as you make out)

VSTs do not enter into the equation as they are 3rd party options which anybody can purchase and use. (The Wersi just allows you to use them on-board)

If you just want to moan when the big boys don’t give you what you want, that’s fine, others however take a more pro-active approach which is also fine, however with your experience it could move Dan’s project forward at a faster rate and after all, helping each other is what the forum is about.

Bill

Sorry, but in fairness, maybe Hypersonic2 impressed back in 2006, when it came out, but it is a LONG way behind most modern arrangers (MOTL, let alone TOTL)...

http://www.wersimusic.com/wersinews_jan2012.pdf

Give me a break! See the $12,400 price for the new Abacus price? Heck, they want $4,900 for a demo/pre-owned one!

Then look at the price list for those VSTi's. It is you that is making stuff up, Bill.

Wasn't the Hypersonic engine and sounds used in the MS? That failed to impress most. Bottom line about these things is, unless you pony up a fortune for the best VSTi's, for starters you are under-utilizing it massively, and the off-the-shelf all-in-one's fail to measure up against even quite modest hardware gear.

Diki, the Abacus as I said has not been made since 2009, any you see are just stock that was left and is being sold on. (Before it was discontinued it was around the £8000 mark, which you will find with its features is price competitive with other Single keyboard Organs on the market)

The prices I gave are 100% correct

As far as I am aware Hypersonic was never used on the Mediastation, as it used Giga Samples

The current OAS 7 came out in 2005, so yes it is close on 9 years old, however if you bothered to check what was built in, you would not make such silly statements as you have.

NOTE: I always check facts before posting, or say if I am not sure.

Bill

Calling it a single manual organ doesn't make it one. It's a single manual arranger, with some organ features built in. EXACTLY the same as my BK-9. In fact, I'll put my BK-9's Hammond sim head to head with your Wersi any day of the week and twice on Sundays!

8000 pounds sterling is about $13,000. That is an utterly ridiculous amount of money for anything! Especially a single manual arranger with some drawbars stuck on it.