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#376231 - 11/24/13 12:57 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Diki]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Diki
I said my piece about soft arrangers a long time ago, and nothing in the intervening years has changed my opinion.

We ALL play arrangers for one primary reason... convenience.

You can do the same thing or better with many different things, WS's, computers, keyboards and modules, etc.. But nothing comes even CLOSE to the instant gratification and ease of use of the modern hardware arranger. The soundsets are balanced, the styles are balanced, the effects are balanced, and it's all wrapped up in a shell that is easy to use and affordable.

Nothing could be further from this than the all software arranger. Yes, if you have the technical and musical skills, you CAN probably end up with something noticeably better sounding than a hardware arranger. But it's going to cost you a FORTUNE, and take up your every waking moment for months, probably years! It's going to involve multiple computers (it has already been alluded to that many of the best sounding soft synths and libraries have CPU requirements that can choke even the best modern CPU's) and a very technical command of programming.

Now, let's be REALISTIC... How many of us have the entire skill-set to pull all of this off? I would hesitate to say ANY of us, from what I have heard, so far. Sure, you get one of Wersi's top demonstrators, probably with considerable technical help from the factory, and he can pull of a demonstration of what you COULD do with one of these wünderkind behemoths with price tags that make the T5 sound like a cheap PSR!

Now, back to reality... How many of US could do that? Sure haven't heard a single USER demo of a Wersi sound remotely as impressive. In fact, most are quite excremental, poorly played and balanced, and certainly not a good representation of what you COULD do if you had $20,000 to drop. Or actually, maybe it IS... Let's face it, if buying a Wersi made you sound that good, the web and this forum would be bursting with demos that put our Roland's and Korg's and Yamaha's to shame.

But it isn't. They don't.

QED.


I agree and disagree with you..

Yes we want convenience.
No we dont want to be limmited in our possibilities..

So if the top layer of the user interface is very convenient and all you would ever need to play conveniently, what would be wrong with dozens of deep layers to give pros more controll..


I think thats exactly what Wersi is trying to do with their new OS..

convenience at top, and flexibility and expendabillity the deeper you go intoo the instrument.. But my grandpa would still be happy playing the top convenient top layer, while my son would be tweakeing and edditiing every single bit of his setup all on the same instrument.




and sounding good or awesome is all a matter of player skills, if you are a true musician you cant sound less then stellar on the current generation of TOTL arrangers.


Edited by Bachus (11/24/13 12:59 AM)
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#376241 - 11/24/13 05:11 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5390
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Bachus

Yes, Sonic is a new generation of OAS; however OAS7 and the Pegasus Wing will continue to be developed into the future. (R47 for OAS7 should be out anytime soon, and the latest Pegasus Wing update came about 2 weeks ago)

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#376248 - 11/24/13 05:56 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: abacus]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: abacus
Hi Bachus

Yes, Sonic is a new generation of OAS; however OAS7 and the Pegasus Wing will continue to be developed into the future. (R47 for OAS7 should be out anytime soon, and the latest Pegasus Wing update came about 2 weeks ago)

Bill

Didnt know about OAS7 R47, but saw the Pegasus wing update, and i even beleive with Version 2 there is a hardware updated version too..

But having 3 sepperate versions to develope might be more expensive and requiring more resources then just a single one. so there might be less frequent updates, but with software being flexible things will transfer from one version to another with pretty less effort. So the updates might be bigger.


I suppose the Sonic is running under windows 8? would be awesome for the very well integrate touch support under Windows 8.
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Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.

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#376266 - 11/24/13 09:04 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5390
Loc: English Riviera, UK
HI Bachus

It does indeed run Windows 8, and the screen is multi-touch so that you can use it just like a tablet. (No need to buy a separate iPad/Tablet)

You are correct about the frequency of the updates.

The main hardware change between V1 & V2 was that the power supply was bought on-board, rather than a separate power block, (There were also a few minor alterations to the other hardware) however all the updates operate exactly the same. (You can go from basic V1 to the latest V2 R03 by just downloading the latest software and loading it in)

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#376359 - 11/25/13 08:50 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: abacus]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: abacus
HI Bachus

It does indeed run Windows 8, and the screen is multi-touch so that you can use it just like a tablet. (No need to buy a separate iPad/Tablet)

You are correct about the frequency of the updates.

The main hardware change between V1 & V2 was that the power supply was bought on-board, rather than a separate power block, (There were also a few minor alterations to the other hardware) however all the updates operate exactly the same. (You can go from basic V1 to the latest V2 R03 by just downloading the latest software and loading it in)

Bill


There is another thing worrying me, the Wersi Sonic was released in Oktober 2012 on the Okay Tastenfestival, its for sale everywhere, yet it seems its still not available and people are still wayting on delivery..

I tried to find out and could not really find someone that got his Sonic delivered.
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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#376363 - 11/25/13 10:27 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5390
Loc: English Riviera, UK
HI Bachus

It was showcased, not released at the Tatenfestival, as it was not ready for general release, (Hence it still shows yellow traffic lights on the Music Store Website) however production of the finished version has now started (So the information goes) so it should be seen in the wilds in the not too distant future.

Hope this helps

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#376365 - 11/25/13 10:34 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Bachus,

Welcome to the world of high end boutique instruments. Most manufacturers will announce a product, take preorders, yet not do a production run until enough units are pre sold. In some instances if enough orders aren't received, it goes into a holding pattern or never comes to fruition. I don't think that's the case with the Sonic. Music Store seems quite solvent and they've spent countless hours on R&D for the Sonic. I think they're just trying to get it all ironed out rather than put it on the market prematurely.

Many companies release products to market early to try and recover R&D costs and use the consumer as a beta tester. Unbeknownst to the consumer of course. Wersi generally doesn't release software or products until the platform is quite solid. Given their target consumer are elderly buyers who aren't tech savvy, using them as beta testers would be detrimental to sales. Wersi chooses to error on the side of caution and hold back software releases until they are near bug free which I commend them on.

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#376379 - 11/25/13 03:01 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
I tried to convince Dom to work with a third party VST company to offer an OOTB experience that would have been fantastic. I don't think he wanted to incur the licensing fees to do so. By the time he realized better OOTB sounds and styles were needed, the Mediastation had already been slagged by people who never laid hands on one. That hindered the Mediastations sales and ultimately forced Dom's decision to pull the plug on keyboard manufacturing.


Even with a complete set of sounds and styles it would have made no difference. Lionstracs should have never build an OPEN Arranger. The market for such a product is far too small to make a business of, and as an Arranger most Workstation users would not look at it.

They should have build a workstation from day one with only the necessary buttons a workstation needs.

The Groove X-R rack unit should have been a major success but unfortunately, events took place that made that impossible to proceed. Same really because that did come with a complete sound set and great out of the box experience.

On the topic of Open Arrangers, that vArranger2 software looks very interesting but it needs it's own complete sound set to give it clear independence away from having to use sound modules.

Regards
James


Edited by Irishacts (11/25/13 03:02 PM)

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#376383 - 11/25/13 04:20 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
James,

The Mediastation was a viable product as a workstation and arranger, it's downfall was in the execution. You can't market it as an arranger if you don't supply enough styles and sounds to make most people happy. The average arranger person doesn't do much in the line of programming which is why Yamaha is so successful. They ship their products with enough styles and soumds to keep the average user happy. Dom thought the open architecture would be enough to offer the arranger and workstation user OOTB then they could expand upon the platform themselves. The error in that thinking was that all but a few delve deeply into their arranger or workstation. That left a small percentage of people like yourself and I who would and could use it to our advantage.

Wersi learned long ago that in order to sell a $5k+ instrument to a demographic consisting of mostly the geriatric who aren't technically savvy, they needed an interface that would be so seemless anyone could operate the instrument. The Mediastation had a broad learning curve and many of the features weren't finished by the time Dom released it. In fact it took several years before they came to fruition. By that time the Mediastation's user interface still wasn't intuitive enough to make it easy for the masses. Dom certainly could have rectified the issues with additional updates and a sound/style library, but that would have added to the cost of the instrument. With sales low, rather than pump additiinal money into the Mediastation, he pulled the plug.

By the time the Groove concept was about to go full scale, the bad press on the forums had all but killed the sales. I'm surprised Dom stuck it out as long as he did. He really did believe in the product and rightfully so. In 5 years time, I'm certain open architecture instruments will be widely available from the big three.

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#376392 - 11/25/13 06:08 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Ensnareyou]
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
My basic system consist of:

Windows 7.
vArranger.
Abeleton Live includes effects (replaces forte as host).
Kontakt 5 Sampler for Main or Right Hand Sounds.

Auto Accompaniment Wavetables (GM, GS, XG, etc.):

Halion Sonic 1.6
Bandstand
VI.One
Colossus
Soundfonts (SGM 2.01, Papelmedia 2006 and many more soundfonts)
Live-Styler (Many GIGA & Soundfonts)

Main or Right Hand Voices:

Grritan (Personal Orchestra, Jazz & Big Band & Orch. Strings)
VI.One
Quantum Leap (Colossus & Brass)
Kontakt 5, Experience & B4II
VRSound (Alto & Tenor Sax & 3D Pipes - Organ)
Bardstown (Piano, Banjo, Guitar, Accordion, Clarinet, etc.)
Cool Vibes by Art Vista
Scarbee Bass
Whole Lotta Country by Larry Campbell
And Others

Antares Harmony Engine EVO (Works well with Abeleton Live but not with Brainspawn's forte.).


i7 Intell Processor
8GB RAM
7200 rpm Hard Drives
M-Audio 1010LT Soundcard

This system works well with my Roland A37 controller keyboard:

You can use the lowest octave for changing variations, fills, etc. Alternatively you can progam all the buttons on the PC keyboard to perform all the arranger controls you want.

There is no noticable delay in playing the notes or changing sounds for both the auto accompaniment (Wavetable is fully loaded or each wave is partially loaded) or the main (right hand voices which are loaded in Kontakt/Abeleton Live-switching channels changes voices, etc.). Now you may from time to time changes all your right hand voices to better suit what your playing say from jazz to country....keep in mind you can load many, many, many, many sounds since it only loads part of each wave within each sound.

I have covered the above in the Software Arranger Forum but I thought you may find this useful here as well.

Frank

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