a full live band...
watch the video at this web site ...to me, there is NOTHING like the interplay and camaraderie between band members ... now I KNOW I'm going to hear the war stories about guys not showing up, drinking on the gig, etc. etc. etc. and I know that happens, BUT as I have said, in 26 years gigging 2-4 times a weekend with the same guys, there was NONE of that ... I also am realistic enough to know that at our age we could not compete with bands like this ... but what GREAT fun it was and if we are honest, most of us LOVED it when we were doing it ... I love what I am doing now, but I still miss it ... 30 - 40 years ago I would not have THOUGHT about being a OMB ... maybe in 30 - 40 years these guys will be OMBs also ...
http://www.highdefmusic.net/

Right On Tony!
Eddie

Tony, my point is the up front folks there are the singer/entertainers - not the horn players, drummer, guitar players - it's the singers that make it all gel, at least IMO. I loved it when I played in a band - but I love playing as an OMB entertainer a lot more. I wouldn't give up being an OMB entertainer if all the band members were still alive and ready to go on the road tomorrow afternoon.

Gary

Right on Gary!!

I'm fortunate in that I get to play a few times a month with some great players, who are also nice guys with no ego issues or other problems, like drug/alcohol abuse.

I get to use a different set of skills than I use when playing Tyros4, and I enjoy the camaraderie, and learning experience that goes with these sessions.

One thing for sure, I have no desire to do gigs with a band, especially bar gigs. I've had my fill of those, and don't miss them.

The arranger provides another outlet for the music inside me, and, I like having total control over what I play, in much the same way as I enjoy giving up some control when playing with others.

So, there is a difference, and I like it.

Ian

Once again we differ, my friend ... I would go back with 'my' guys in a heartbeat ... and in our band, there were no 'singers' - everyone played an instrument, everyone sang - well, not the sax player and drummer - we wouldn't LET them ...
And while the singers may make it all gel, where would they be without the horn players, drummers, guitar players etc.? ... they would be playing ARRANGER KEYBOARDS !!! ...

Like wine and women, even in song everyone has a preference ... and everyone's choice is RIGHT - for them at that time ...
I always say, we never know if we made the BEST choice, we only know if we made a good choice or a bad choice depending on the outcome ...

Tony, OMB is great but it is like eating alone in the kitchen with no one to talk to.

For those who never had the opportunity to play with a great group and feel the interplay, it is hard to understand. There are very few words to explain emotions.

Four men: Drums, B3 with bass pedals, Tenor Sax, and me on Guitar and lead vocals. The interplay between the Sax player and me at times was --- err, ELECTRIC, I have no better word. We experienced a feeling that we could not describe, and when it was over we just smiled wondering what happened.

The Tenor man added so much to lift my guitar playing and my vocals. When I played rhythm I helped him reach a place that he could never feel and reach alone.

For the last 15 years I have not had that feeling as a OMB. This does not mean that I do not enjoy doing a single with my keyboard, it’s in a different category.

Hey, I could be talking about sex here. (smile)

Memories, John C.

John ... Obviously we are 'on the same page' here ...our band was Alto Sax, Guitar, Bass, Drums and me on keys ... I progressed from accordion to Cordovox to Fender Rhodes during those years ... the best musician was our Alto player and we fed off him ... the Bass player was our 'featured' vocalist, and the guitar player and I sang more rock and pop stuff ... I actually preferred doing harmony and counter melody background (I guess I just happened to be a little better at it than the others) ... during the Christmas season the past few years I have concentrated on having my audience sing the melody to many of the songs while I sing harmony and counter melodies ... I've been performing at some of these places for a number of years now and the folks have come to look forward to these 'sing alongs' ...
Have a Merry Christmas ...

I'm such a group player that I often hire someone out of my pocket...take less money for me, even though it is a single.

Luckily, I make enough that it is more fun that anything else.


Love that interplay.


Russ

Are you guys talking a band like this group, Ray Charles, Frank Sinatra, Blood Sweat and Tears, Chicago so on and so forth or a combo where the trumpet player tells the alto guy you play C and I'll play E like this TA, TA,TaTa.

Can anyone here on this forum really read music well enough to play in a real band. Com on guys, these folks went to schools of higher learning and studied reading music for years.

Use Elvis' band for an example eh. Ha ha Just had to mention this. It all just struck me funny.

I enjoyed playing with some real guitar players not just strummers. I played with a guitar player that improvised on 4 or 5 choruses of "Everythings Coming Up Roses" and I don't think he hit the same note twice. I didn't realize that the guitar had that many notes. I'll never forget that night. But I remember the bass playing vocalist was a conceited Ass to work with and he was the leader and the worst musician of the bunch. I'm sure you guys remember stuff like that.

I'm a personal friend of Elvis' guitar player and band leader and he doesn't read a note, only chord charts. That's the way every studio musician I know does it.
On the other hand I can read music over well, even though I don't anymore, and I'm a small frog in a medium size puddle.

Don it no reflection on you or Elvis's guitar play. In a 20, 30 piece orchestra you can throw a sheet of intricate chart on a stand that the guy never seen before and get very close to playing it right the first time. They went to school to study this because it's their life's dream like mine was being the best pool hustler in my area of town and Gary's is to sail to Florida every other week. LOL

boo ... could I "really read music well enough to play in a real band" ? ... no, but when we started out as a band in high school we had to read because these are the books we played from:


I've posted this before, but many years ago I saw a rehearsal of Frank Sinatra JUNIOR'S big band at the Steel Pier in Atlantic City ... while I was there the music director handed out charts to a new tune they were going to put in the show ... I was BLOWN AWAY by how these guys sight read and played the tune for the first time, and I was even MOR blown away when Junior - without looking at the score - asked the sax section to play a Bb in a certain measure instead of a B !!!

BTW ... the name of the tune was "Up, Up, and Away" by The Fifth Dimension ...



"But I remember the bass playing vocalist was a conceited Ass to work with and he was the leader and the worst musician of the bunch. I'm sure you guys remember stuff like that."

As I've said, fortunately, I never had to put up with stuff like that ...

Tony what almost made me quit before I even made a good start was when I found out that there was a clarinet player in high school that could play intricate classical sheet music that he'd never heard of on the first try. I couldn't do that in a million years. That peeved me off. Not Juilliard School of Music but Behrman High School in Algiers.

By the way Pete Fountain couldn't read music but Al Hirt I was told would sit in with the Philadelphia or one of those big time symphonies up by Dave and DNJ just when he was passing through.

Some guys can do it and some can't. My consolation was I'd always think well they can't lay brick, like they would want to. Ha ha.

I don't have the patience to sit there and count 12 bars before I'm allowed to play an 8 note phrase.

You got it tony

I do film sessions from 5:00 PM Sunday until about 6:00 PM on Monday when I'm in town. Actually, the work is in Louisville, about 90 miles away. I leave about 6:00 for an 8:00 PM job back in Lexington.

I guess it could be dome by ear, but the basic track is charted. from there, it's watching the screen and playing to the action...almost like the silent music, I'd guess. The ability to read the lead line and changes speeds up the process, and the ability to write out an improvisational passage is critical.

I didn't learn to read until I got into regular studio production, but it';s been a lifesaver.

What Boo is talking about, though is a whole different thing....site reading in real time is a killer, especially on intricate pieces.

Old time section players were amazing.


Russ

boo ... my 9-5 was primarily working with computers, so I felt I had that over a lot of people ...

When I was studying accordion we had an accordion orchestra that played full symphony scores ... many times I had to count far more than 12 bars to play an 8 note phrase ...

back atcha ...

Hi Tony. First let me say Merry Christmas to you and your family and good wishes for a happy, HEALTHY, and prosperous New Year. What I have to say here has no musical significance and is merely a difference of opinion on one specific issue. As you know, except for political affiliations, I'm usually in lockstep with you and always admired the conciliatory tone and practicality you bring to most discussions. It is in that spirit that I present an opposing point of view to your above quote.

For about ten years I was a volunteer counselor in a program called Thresholds that taught a course in decision making to inmates in county and state prisons. The program operated on the premise that most inmates were in their current situations as a result of poor decision making skills. That when in situations that could land them in trouble, they were more likely to REACT rather than DECIDE. We defined 'reacting' as choosing from a list of ONE possibilities and 'deciding' as looking at multiple possibilities (the more the better) and (after careful evaluation of each one) choosing the one that was most likely to produce the desired outcome. We heavily emphasized that the outcome was irrelevant (since there was little we could do to guarantee it) and that what was important was the quality of the DECISIONAL PROCESS. For instance, if you had hungry kids at home and only five bucks to your name, and you bought a lottery ticket and WON; was that a good decision? A great outcome, sure, but was it good DECISION (think about the odds of actually hitting the lottery)?

This concept was hard for the prisoners to understand and accept but after 12 weeks of one-on-one counseling combined with experiential workshops, it started to sink in. Suddenly, hitting a guard because he may have verbally abused you, didn't make much sense when all he ended up with was a sore jaw for a coupe of hours and you spent the next 3 months in solitary confinement with a year added onto your sentence. Most of us go through this process automatically, which is why we're on the outside. Most of the inmates never learned or developed this skill set (decision making).

So with all due respect, I can't agree with you that we can judge a decision by it's outcome.

Luv you anyway though, Tony.

Chas

BTW, enjoyed that duo you did with your old guitarist. That sort of thing certainly brings back some of our fondest memories.

I was in a college level big-band back in the 80's. We sometimes had rehearsals which were solely sight reading practice. The director would hand out a chart and we would play it once and then give it back to him, never to see it again. This would go on for two or three hours at a stretch. Sight reading is a skill like any other, and gets better with practice.

I couldn't sight read my way out of a paper bag now. I'm quite out of practice.

For what it's worth, I miss playing in a band with real players.

I also consider the bands. Blood Sweat Tears, Chicago, all of the best, they eventually break up with hard feelings. Did all of the Beatles stay friends? I don't know. The horn players where I lived were not crazy about the Beatles. They put us out of work.

How log were the other two groups I mention here last. There's no longevity in it is what I think most of us OMB guys consider. We can play what we want where we want and when we want. I was called a few times to play a gig the morning of the day of the gig because the drummer for the band got sick.

Geez was he the only drummer in town that could hit the 6 licks that the guitar player knew. Do you think the whole band with Les Paul stuck together for all of the folks that they worked with over the years. It's just a big task to make it all work with a bunch of cry babies. LOL! Tony if you guys lasted 20 years, you were the exception and not the rule friend.

As an entertainer who's had large bands, small combos, and now plays primarily as a solo - I found that I include my audience in my "energy pool" - we feed off each other - they tell me what to play by their actions, facial expressions, body language, etc. Yes, at times I miss the spontaneity that a rehearsed band can bring, but music IS music and wherever the inspiration comes from is the RIGHT PLACE. I have a few dates each month with a group of guys that are my seniors by 10-15 years (hard to imagine, right??), and I adore the role I get to play as supportive, rhythm player and vocalist. (I'm on guitar with this band).
So ... bands - YAY
Soloists - YAY
Hey, it's Christmas at my house .... best time of the year when there are little ones around.
Peace to all and to all ... goodnight.

Boo, you don't understand. I was the first chair trumpet player in the Oklahoma All-State concert band as a sophomore in high school. I could read anything, and play it if it was in my physical range. No doubt I'm out of practice, but it's something you don't forget.
Because you can read does not make you better, it makes you different from those that achieve success via other forms of music theory.
Personally, I hope I NEVER have to listen to 23 choruses of a song of any type, but particularly jazz. Also, limiting yourself to the notes someone else wrote as their interpretation of a song is not creative, although it certainly takes technical expertise.
Go play some jazz somewhere, I have to go play popular songs for MONEY!

chas ... obviously, we could debate this for eternity, but if the guy WON the lottery with his last $5 it certainly seems like a good decision, perhaps not the BEST because of the odds, but it worked out ... if he didn't, it was a bad decision ...

I actually started feeling this way about decisions when I relocated to RI and people would ask me if it was a good decision - I said that I KNOW it wasn't a BAD decision because things worked out well ... had I relocated and gotten fired soon after and not found other employment, then it might have been a bad decision ...
I'll never know if it was the BEST decision, because I will never know what would have happened if I had stayed in NYC and found new employment there ...

Merry Christmas to you and your family, and Happy KWANZAA ...

Thanks Tony, although I don't celebrate either. I always say Merry Christmas to those I KNOW to be of the Christian faith, just as I say Happy Hanukkah to those I KNOW to be of the Jewish faith. I only say Happy Holidays in cases where I'm not sure. As far as Kwanzaa goes, I've never been involved with that celebration. I don't think most African-Americans of my generation are as Afro-centric as some of the younger generation.

chas

chas

There is still a place for the OMB. Don Mason and Gary have seemed to have found it. I played in a 16 piece big band for 35 years. In the end I feel that no matter how good the arranger, it is still instant coffee in the end, entertaining but still instant coffee.

Believe me Tom ... at this point in my career/life I have also found a place for OMB ... it provides a great outlet for my 'entertainer's ego' and brings in some income as well ... what is better than that? ...
I have to say I just LOVE the audience response to what I do ... having never tried drugs, it provides a high that even alcohol can't match ...

I actually have one of the very few OMB jobs in this entire area. We're a dying breed, I'm afraid! Nursing homes don't pay squat here. I'd rather go play free at a hospital or Veteran's home.
DonM

There's room for it all, as far as I am concerned.

The important thing for me is, don't imbue these machines with more than they actually have. There isn't an arranger made that is as good as a real band. Sure, you can make someone THINK it's as good, for a short time, but in the long run, it's boring for them, it's boring for you, and it's boring for your soul.

But people will pay well to be bored... LOL

A machine will never surprise you (in a good way, anyway!). A machine will never throw in a substitution you didn't think of. A machine will never tell you if you are off tonight (it helps, sometimes!). A machine will never help you move the PA! A machine will never tell you 'We just did a blues tune, let's not do another one!'. A machine will never lift you to play better than you ever did before.

Real players will. Yes, they'll infuriate you, they'll drink and smoke (as if you don't, LOL), they'll hit on the waitresses, they'll sometimes get too loud, too fast, too 'too'..! But just when you feel like giving up, you'll have one of the most sublime musical moments in your life, and all is forgiven.

That's what's wrong with machines... No emotion, for good OR bad. And music, if nothing else, is emotion. Separate music from the emotion that created it, what do you have left? A product.

Not art.

I think, at least for me, the important thing is if playing as an OMB is a "choice", and not necessarily a "have to" situation.

I could still find work in a band where no sequencers are used (or used very little) but I choose (and have chosen) not to as I'm tired of the bar scene.

The last group I played with was in Newfoundland, back in the early 90's, with a seven piece Rock and Roll Show, and we did all concerts and no bar work whatsoever.

But, to return to doing bar gigs? The offer would have to be pretty sweet before that will happen.

Ian

Just finished doing six days a week with a four piece this summer (on my G70, of course!). Pretty much the best players in the area.

They drove me crazy... But I'd rather play with them than do a solo. I'd drive ME crazy, and then there's no-one left to get mad at! I'd fire myself if I didn't need someone to move the gear..! LOL

I used to LOVE playing bass pedals, and ran mine through a big old Ampeg with two 15's. It certainly required a lot more concentration, especially when soloing, but there was a lot of personal satisfaction involved in pulling it off right.

My interplay involved the guitarist at the time (he's one of the guys I jam with now) and many times it felt like we had ESP going on.

There's no doubt about the magic created in a well suited and sorted group, and, I'm lucky to be able to still experience that to some degree today.

And yes, the one man band is a different category, but still very satisfying if you put the time in to make it work really well.

Ian

Group playing is GREAT. When the bass player is your son and the drummer is your grandson, it's EVEN BETTER! I'd prefer playing with them than as an OMB any day!

Russ