In another thread, Donny (DNJ) said: to him, Yamaha's S950 Audio Styles sounded hollow and he does not use any of them and if he could he would delete them all from the keyboard. Until now, I've only used the Cool Swing and Big Band Swing, both of which I felt were great for the songs I selected them for.

After reading Donny's post, I decided to go through the keyboard and find all the Audio Styles, try them out and determine, for myself, if they were good, bad, indifferent, etc..., for the type of music we primarily play.

There are only two audio styles in the Swing & Jazz category, Cool Swing and Big Band Swing. I found them clean, not at all cluttered, very clear and crisp sounding, especially as you progress through the variations.

There are no Audio Styles in the pop & rock, Ballroom, Movie & show, Country, and Entertainer categories. However, there are six in the Latin category, only one of which I considered unusuable, which was the Batucada style.

There are also six in the Dance category, and while I found them interesting, it's just not the kind of music I play or enjoy. I guess their overall quality will have to be determined by someone of the forum that actually plays and enjoys that kind of music.

You'll find five Audio Styles in the World category, all of which I thought were absolutely outstanding.

The two Audio Styles in the R&B category are full, robust and very clean.

Finally, there are two Audio Styles in the Ballad category, neither of which I would use. They just don't fit any of the songs I normally play. They sound crisp, clean and were well constructed, but just not for me.

So, the question is, for those of you that have a PSR-S950, Tyros 4, or the new T5, what's your opinion of the audio styles.

The only song I've recorded using an Audio Style is Bring Me Sunshine which was recorded using the Zoom H2 during a live performance at a retirement community. The H2 was connected to the headphone output jack of the S-950.

I hope to record some Latin songs using the Audio Styles sometime in the near future, however, Yamaha has made it so that you cannot record using the onboard recording system while using Audio Styles. The only workaround is to record a midi file of the song, then while playing the midi file, you can sing and use your right hand voices while recording using the onboard recorder. It's kinda a long way around the barn technique, but I tested it earlier this evening and it will work.

Gary

Gary,
The two audio styles you mentioned, the easy country one, and two of the latin ones are the only audio styles I use on my S950. They are very good.


Deane

The drums sound like they are disjointed from the rest of the music.....and distant as if the drummer is in another room...
midi styles are so much better..

You are correct gary. Very clean and my kind of music. I assume you were putting in the guitar fillins?
baz

Baz, yes, but they were just part of the style's fill - nothing special on my part there.

Gary

Sounds good to me. I used the audio swing and big band and maybe a couple more. If they were serious they would supply a LOT of them.
Right now it's like a beautiful sexy woman who teases you for an hour and then says STOP.

I don't understand what you mean....That never happened to me

I use the swings and I love the latins, especially the cha cha.

Joe

Isn't there a Beatles style in the rock section?

Yes, Paul.

Gary

aside from the sound which was already discussed I don't see the advantages of these so called audio styles vs midi styles which you can customize in so many ways....with audio styles you cant edit most of it it either...that alone puts me off as who would want the factory to dictate the sound I prefer?

No advantage, Donny - just an added benefit that sounds good.

Gary

Audio styles is what Audya has...

Yamaha has audion drumstracks in midi styles.. which Wersi has had for over 10 years..

But in the Audya you also have audio basses guitars and more... I dont think the Yamaha deserves the name audio styles..

Bachus, I'm really not sure how the styles were constructed, but they sure sound good.

Gary

Personally I think it's important, especially for the type of music I like (ambient).

I think audio styles are great for Latin styles. There are many subtleties especially within the percussion section that midi still can't reproduce.

I agree.

Gary

I disagree.

http://www.fxpansion.com/index.php?page=42&tab=127
http://www.toontrack.com/products.asp?item=10

That's the tip of the iceberg. MIDI percussion can sound amazing. Now, obviously, no-one expects 28GB of percussion samples. But that (the BFD collection) is an exhaustive collection of almost everything you could ever think of. A basic Percussion kit for a MIDI arranger would be a teeny, tiny fraction of that figure.

Somehow, arrangers seem to find the sample room to put in amazingly detailed piano, Rhodes, guitars, sax's, all of which chew up sample RAM, but drum and percussion kits still get the short end of the (drum)stick!

You don't need audio loops to sound unbelievably realistic any more. In fact, for many years, TBH. Add another 256MB of ROM to the roughly 1GB or so that they already have, and you would have a percussion kit that would fool anyone.

And, of course, just like better drum kits, they would be able to be used on ALL your legacy styles, not just the tiny few that come with the machine. 10% of your styles (far fewer, if we are simply talking Latin styles) doesn't really START to fulfill the need.

KITS, not loops. That is the answer.

No... that's just your answer.
Stop talking like you were the Oracle from Delphi because you are not... don't you see how boring this way of relating to the others becomes after a while?

Styles differ for each player and I think Yamaha has done a fine job of offering a nice variety for all players.
Some complain of not enough new styles but I find some of the
previous style excellent and I am glad they did not delete
them. It boils down to "different strokes for different folks.
Lloyd

I really like having both - MIDI because I get to change things there - audio because they are good as they are.

Funny how folks think - the MIDI drums in today's arrangers are also "audio" - think about it.

Bill G

I disagree Diki... you can have a 500Gb SSd that is high speed for $300... which is perfect for direct streaming from disk of every single sound played... (just like some instruments in the Kronos do)


There is no reason not to have atleast 200Gb of samples in your modern day instruments... and having 200GB of free room for user samples..

First one that goes this route is a winner...



oh... and if you want that real live feeling from your drumset.... ask a friend to play it for you on their midi drums... There is absolutely no reason that a good drumsound needs to be auio based, i totally agree with you



On top of all of this, Yamaha does not have audio styles, they only have audio drum tracks, a feature availble on Wersi for over ten years now..

Ketron is still the only brand with real audio styles, as they also have basstracks and guitartracks and more available in audio..

I agree totally ketron shines here to a point.....the audio drums in Yamaha audio styles sound so disjointed as if in another room....cant believe people don't hear this?

It's not just sound, it's really more about feel. I still don't think midi can replicate the human feel.

Actually if you think about it logically then there is more chance of a Midi drum track having feeling than an audio drum track, this is because a real drummer never plays exactly the same twice, (Slight variation on where the stick hits the head for example) and using Drum samples you can have multiple hit samples that vary in real time rather than being locked to the Midi drum track, (This is the reason all the Drum VST are so realistic sounding) a drum audio loop on the other hand will play exactly the same time after time with no variation, and thus after a time it sounds unnatural. (If you have plenty of storage then you can have multiple loops that play randomly like drum samples which solves the problem, but currently there is no hardware arranger that has the capacity to achieve this without glitches)

Bill

Hells Bells dreamer you better get use to it, there's no stopping the man, he's part the old quirky SZ furniture, glad you think the same has most, nicely put all the same

The solution is simple: just make the loops longer. Some Audya styles have loops that last even 32 bars. If you consider that an average midi style lasts 4 bars and 8 bars are already considered an exception, you will see how, after 32 bars recorded live, nobody really notices if a drummer is repeating himself, also because at that point you will probably already have changed variation (and introduced another 32 -different- bars), and by the time you go through all the four variations you will likely have reached the end of the song.

I opt for midi drum tracks instead of audios for this reason: Listen to Roland midi drum sets, e.g. the following (watch the demo movie):
http://www.roland.com/V-Drums/lineup/portable.html

What you hear is actually midi drums of course, because every time the drummer hits a pad of this drum set, a single one-note sample is triggered via midi, so this is actually how realistically midi drum tracks can be created. Does it sound unrealistic in any way?

[quote=rosetree Does it sound unrealistic in any way? [/quote]

The only thing I found unrealistic was a drummer being up at 9:00 in the morning ...


... sorry , I couldn't resist ...

Look, OK... Kits is AN answer... Better?

What is the question, though?

Want our current level of control, editing ability and flexibility? Loops cannot give us that. So, to gain a tenuous increase in audio quality (again, simply go to those links I posted and marvel at how LIVE those MIDI tracks were - you DID notice they weren't audio loops, didn't you?) you give ALL of that up. I don't see this as a solution, merely substituting one problem for another.

All I tried to point out was, MIDI percussion CAN be almost indistinguishable from audio loops nowadays. So why would anyone want to use loops, and lose every single editing ability we currently have, AND the ability to use the improved sounds on styles we already have, for something as preset as loops are?

THIS is why I consider kits as the answer, not loops. One step forwards, if you have to take one step backwards too, is no progress at all, IMO. FAR better kits is a step forward with NO step backwards. Hence, why I consider it the answer.

Perhaps, you might suggest something that has NO drawbacks, if you have a different one?

Post some examples so we can decide on our own.

There are so many examples of midi "single-sample" drums. I especially like the second:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpthXkSAw2E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXkS8xSabaM

Now you could store e.g. 8 or 16 bars of what the drummer plays as a conventional midi style drum part variation. AND later you could change every single note. No need for audio.

Did you go to those links and play the audio demos..?

Those AREN'T audio loops, they are MIDI tracks playing MIDI kits.

EDIT... in reference to my earlier post

I thought the second link WAS audio samples - at least that's what the guy said.

Which one are you referring to now? MY second link? He just explains what a sample is: a recorded sound. It's clear that he is playing single samples by hitting the pads. To me it sounds so 100% like conventional drum playing that there is no more doubt for me audio styles are completely unnecessary for the drum part. (different for guitars though)

Don't confuse samples with loops. These kits are just like the kits in our arrangers. Loops are an entire performance of real instruments, played by real people, captured 'as is' that one time...

In other words, you can do what you like with a kit... you can't do a damn thing to a loop.

It's simple.By having better drum kits we could use all the styles that we have and sound much much better.By making new audio loops we could throw all the older styles to garbage.

Like I wrote in another thread, it all depends on what you are after: if you are a control freak (you know, one of those guys who double check everything), then your choice will be drum kits (the bigger the better).
If, on the other hand, you are after authenticity, nothing in my opinion beats a sampled loop.
Frankly, I am surprised that someone who always writes about the difference between playing alone (or with an arranger) and playing with a band, with all the interplay that goes on and the magic and so on fails to grasp the difference between recording a drummer who hits a snare maybe fifty times, each time with different strength, angle, and whatnot and the same drummer who begins to play a groove and then slowly closes his eyes as he drifts into the "zone" and his drumming changes little by little... if you press the "Rec" button then, what do you think you will capture? Just a series of drum hits or something entirely different?

As a reference, please watch this YouTube video where Mr. Steve Gadd plays a simple pop tune; nothing fancy or pyrotechnical: just a great drummer grooving away.

@Dreamer: In this question I really can't agree. Do the examples of midi drum kits I posted above really sound too static or in any way artificial to you? And do you feel a recorded loop of a creative drummer really comes particularly close to a real live band? - As to my ears midi drums played on drum kits (which could be perfectly taken for midi styles if the samples are in the keyboard) are so realistic that I would never sacrifice the editing flexibility for audio loops.
And why do you characterize the wish to edit something as being a 'control freak'? Isn't it rather creativity to want to change things yourself rather than taking things the way the manufacturer prepared it?

I LOVE Steve Gadd, but that version could clear a dance floor in a heartbeat. All groove ... no pocket. Maybe that's the wrong words, but it was way COOL, but not very functional ... unless he's doing a showpiece. Very expressive, but too much accents and too much of a solo feel throughout ... no steady pulse. Even if you hate Disco ... that song needs a little more glue to hold the beat together. Great technician, and very expressive, but again .... didn't work for that tune ... at least not for me.
Gimme Ringo.

I'm moving from T3 to T5, and have enjoyed it overall. Although the Audio styles are very good, I agree with DNJ (hope I have your initials right! :-) that the drums in the Audio styles struck me as sounding a bit 'distant' compared to the MIDI drums (non-audio styles).

I suppose it's just that for Audio styles, the drummers were recorded with some room ambiance in the mix ... for me, I'll use a bunch of the Audio styles, as plenty of them are very good; but the drums in them don't quite have the "punch" (crispness?) that I was hoping for, or that I'm used to with the non-Audio styles.

Jim

Jim I'm glad someone agrees with me .....all you have to do is listen to them..

I guess to really answer this question, it would also have to depend on the keyboard that impliments Audio Styles and how they do it, how it sounds...etc.

Not all Audio styles are the same as Audio styls in a PSR S950, Tyros 5 or Audya series will sound/be different.

Dreamer... it boils down to diminishing returns. Those posted examples of drumming and percussion at the BFD or Superior Drummer sites, to my ears at least, sound EXACTLY like audio drumming.

Which they ARE..!

Don't confuse a MIDI kit with a robotic performance. Nowadays, most of the better style creators are using MIDI kits and real drummers to lay down the groove. And MIDI percussion is played by REAL percussionists. Combine the performance with a kit that, OK, there's aren't 50 different snare drum samples, but even 8 or so can fool the ear, and you have something much better than we currently have. Remember, drum samples are VERY, very short (other than cymbals!), so take up very little ROM compared to say a sax. I dare say, were the ROM for an SA2 sax sound tasked to doing a percussion kit, you could have many layers for each sound in the same room.

The combination of great samples with a great performance easily equals audio loops, but with none of the drawbacks.

That's a win/win, in my book at least.

Diki...
I agree absolutely with you....
However we must not forget that,with a keyboard (like Audya) that you can to make Audio Styles, not have limit for Drums kit, becouse for example:
If you like any VST like BFD3, EZ Drummer,Abbey Road Series etc, you can to make Audio Loops (Variations, Fill, Intros etc) in your DAW (Cubase, Logic etc) and with very easy way to copy in keyboard, to make your style..
Also if you like you can to have (original play) from famous (like Nik Mason of Pink Floyd, https://www.esoundz.com/sounds/nick-mason-kit-for-bfd2/5224.html
or Steve Gadd https://www.esoundz.com/details.php?ProductID=2448 and with this to make your styles...
Styles with Famous Drummers...

I have make a new Audio Style for Ajamsonic Upgrade with EZ Drummer Vintage a Expansion Drums https://www.toontrack.com/products.asp?item=199

Here is the demo
https://soundcloud.com/sokratis-1974/pop-rock-1

I think it is a amazing element, which gives us different dimension to the expression of a style..

Thanks.

Awesome Sokratis!!!

Henni

I also LOVE Steve Gadd. In fact when I was a kid I had a poster of him hanging on my wall and I could even play some of his solos and grooves note for note. I went to all his clinics I could and had a few of his instructional videos...

Anyways, keep mind that in the video that was posted, he is not playing for dancers. It appears to be a concert for listeners. Sort of a jazz trio format. You know as well as I do, Steve Gadd could keep a dance floor packed if that was what was needed.

I love Ringo too, but do you really think he could drive a jazz trio?

... if they were in a MINI VAN !!! ...

... Seriously, Ringo was the perfect drummer for what he did ...

"... if they were in a MINI VAN !!! ..."

Love it!

Sokratis, that's great that you can do that (is it custom software, or can you now do User Audio Styles including the melodic stuff now on the Audya, and how easy is the software to use?), but that seems such a convoluted, second hand way of doing it...

Rather than the kit be in the arranger, you have to do it all in a DAW, chop it up into its component parts, transfer it to the arranger, reassemble it, rinse and repeat for EVERY change you want to make. With a MIDI kit in the arranger, want to move a beat around, change a swing value, drop a hit, presto! Done.

The thing is, many of our modern MIDI arrangers are starting to go this way. Most Roland kits in the new BK series have snares up to four layers deep. Many of the sounds are four layers, some are three or two, a few are still just the one. But this equates to drum grooves that are MUCH more dynamic than they used to be (especially as Roland samples a little bit of room into the samples - nowhere NEAR as ambient as Yamaha have made their audio loops, though!). Combine this with the Dynamic Arranger feature (play harder or softer on the keyboard, the Style Parts get a bit more or less velocity offsets) and you are starting to get something that sounds quite 'live'... (BTW, can't do THAT with a loop!)

All we need now is for the kits to go say eight layers deep, and the improvement will be astounding. No real need for the 48 snare layers that BFD gives us (although that would be nice!). But things are already quite good (the drum shootout we had had Roland's BK kits compared quite favorably with Ketron's loops) with just four layers on the main drums. Eight on it ALL would probably do the trick.

Plus, eight layers would allow 'round robin' triggering of layers (if you send say 100 velocity for every hit of a particular drum, which quite a few really old legacy styles do, the player alternates between adjacent sample layers, so you don't get that 'machine gun' effect) and much more subtle playing.

While it's great that Ketron's CAN import 3rd party audio loops to make styles, I think simply upping the detail in the kits we already HAVE is the simpler solution, allowing us to all edit our styles without resorting to a convoluted way of preparing custom audio loops... You know how simple we arranger players like things!

Again I agree with you Diki....
It is indeed extremely difficult and quite complicated method to make a audio style ...
Require too much knowledge DAW, audio mix, very good Hradware and Software equipment, and maybe prohibitive for the average user.....
But now in cooperation with AJ, we will try to do new Audio Style library, to extendable the factory pallets..
I think that will be very important to someone can have continuously new Audio Styles.
I agree also with you that the sound engine of Audya (design, and possibilities) is very very poor.... We can not to make a new Drums kit with User samples (too bad), or if we want to make a user sound (with multisamples) the MSP file is very poor also....
The INS file (multisamples, and Drums kit) is very good, but it can to create only Ketron Italy...
My opinion is that the Pa3x (i have it) is perhaps the best for this work....
Very very good sound engine (DNC) with too much posibilities....
One year before, I had recorded in a famous Studio of Greece and in all Balkans (Studio Sierra) http://www.sierrastudios.gr/page17/page18/page18.html a new classic Drums kit (Yamaha 9000) to we use in a new Greek Korg USB, that i am working....
Here is the video of Studio http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-pQmHWTf2s
So... With Pa3x,we have very good possibilities to create a good Drums Kit...
Here https://soundcloud.com/sokratis-1974/musicorama-pa3x-final-sierra is the demo of New Drums kit that we recorded in Studio Sierra, and I play with Pa3x... The Snare Drums, is different here but all kit is from Yamaha 9000...
Thanks.

There's a lesson to be learned from all this...

DON'T CLOSE OFF YOUR ARRANGER! Ketron, Yamaha, are you listening?

If you are going to go down this audio loop road, there's basically NO WAY you can anticipate what grooves and rhythms and styles your users need. So, making it EASY for users to put their own grooves in is part of the decision to go down this non-traditional arranger route.

Otherwise, you end up having a 'potentially' great feature that, in practice, turns out to be only for those who are content with the factory audio styles (and content that anything they want that isn't in there will sound poor in comparison). In Yamaha's case this means all that effort spent on a mere 10% of the content. This route, to change completely how you have done drum tracks after decades of MIDI kits, is basically an 'all or nothing' trap.

If the audio styles don't utterly blow the MIDI ones away, what's the point? And if they DO, all the styles need audio drums. And that's where allowing 3rd party style makers and technically savvy users access to the tools to be able to make THEIR OWN! Because you, to be honest, don't have the time or money to flood your users with the myriad different needs they all have, from Balkan folk/pop musics to crunk to zydeco. You can't do it all... let US do the rest!

Diki...
I agree 100% with you!!!!!....