http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7no76WxwGv0

Serious sound system LOL

Col

good DEMO I am waiting for a new T5 to come in my first one had problems so Yamaha is giveing me a new one hope it will be in soon I esp like the demo of the ensambale voices this is going to be the best new part of T5 in time one people fig out how to use.

this was posted before?..

http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthread...emo_Pres#UNREAD

Even as good as this guy is, he forgets to give the trumpet player a chance to take a breath! Same with flute player. And with sax man at 12:48.
Great sound though.

And only one grey head of hair in the place. Not many smiles in the audience, though - probably a bit gobsmacked by the performance. Second to none.

A full house for the demo is easy to achieve just by make it a FREE Concert..

... and it picked up every sound nuance ... wonder how that would work in a NH environment ...

But he IS a player ...

Better yet, FREE BEER.

Oh ye of little faith

I think overhere in europe most Tyrosses are sold at these baartmans or Voncken events..

Good catch there, Don...I noticed it too. When I was in the Yamaha Electone teaching system, we had a seminar by the head product specialist at the time, Claude Dupras, and he focused on making the organ's many instrument emulations sound more realistic by understanding how the imitated instrument would be played.

It's an important detail some arranger players never seem to pick up on.

Even worse are the players that play every sound the way you would play a piano.

I use a volume pedal to fade out the sounds that don't decay naturally with the sustain pedal.

I really am impressed by your guitar emulations...that's a great skill to have, and you have it covered very nicely. You must be a guitarist as well as a keyboardist.

Ian

You know it makes sense to go out and buy one, PB is probably the best demonstrator of all times, he doesn't have the fun that MV has but he will sell Tyros 5 if you go to one of his venues. 124 you keep your beer I will have the T5, I won't end up with a bad head.

Yes peter is simply the best . I also noticed that this was a packed out venue with standing room only and they were all men my age and younger . Excellent demo !

And the question that we should ask is why are such events not held in the USA???
Deane

You want to get realistic with horn and wind emulation? Sing along with your solo! When you run out of breath, stop playing. Don't start until after your breath.

You might also take a stab at learning to play what you are singing. Most of us can scat a decent solo under our breath, so to speak. OK, you may not get the pitch dead on with your singing, but I bet you it's a dozen times more naturally flowing than a simply PLAYED solo. Our voices are the only instrument we have directly wired into our brains. Everything else is second hand, but the voice is the window into the soul. We all dream about those mythical 'brainwave to MIDI' converters, but here is one you already have!

Practice scatting a bar or two, then try to play what you scatted. Keep it simple. Work it up to more and more bars, more and more complexity. Then try doing BOTH at the same time. Start simple, work your way up.

Pretty soon, you are playing expressive, natural sounding solos that would make a horn player proud!

although he is a great player this IMO was more of a concert vs a manufacturers demo to sell the T5 I would say,...people enjoyed the music but inside they are saying I could never play like that or sound like that either,.....I'd say to sell make it simple so that the ordinary consumer can say top themselves .....
that doesn't look to hard...now I could do that!.....

Yep, the singing should work for sure...haven't tried it but will give it a go.

When doing sax, trumpet, and other wind instruments, I usually breath out as if I am blowing into the mouthpiece, and when I run out of wind, I either let the key up, let it fade with the sustain pedal, or back off on the volume pedal if the sound has a continuous hold with the sus pedal.

I've also weaned myself away from using a string pad in the left hand (when in style play mode) as, unless the chords are voiced fairly open, it tends to get a little too thick sounding, and not sounding much like strings. I usually put the string pads in the style itself, and I have several donor styles with these great moving string pads/phrases that really sound smooth. I can also revoice them to other sounds like synth, organ, French Horn etc. to create another mood.

Usually the only sounds I now use in the left hand would be acoustic/electric pianos, some appropriate drawbar settings on the tonewheel sim. and the occasional choir and brass sounds.

Of course, all the above depend on the genre and/or style being used.

Ian

Peter is a good demonstrator...he is not a great player...as in the top 10 percent...maybe better than average.

When he played the solo instruments on this video..he was unrealistic...his phrasing was not as a flute, sax, or trumpet player would play..and as mentioned ..zero breathing room to even sell a real performance..

I think he depends more on the Yamaha gimmicks than actually playing realistically..
It is also very noticible ..everything he plays is like playing a piano..Real horn players ..lay back a bit in phrasing...that alone would help..


I have an old VHS tape, maybe I can convert it to an MP4...It is Roland's Eric Persing, in mid 80's demo of Roland samples with I think an A series controller..He used a breath controller...as Diki mentions if you are thinking or in this case playing as a breath player...it comes across as real..

BTW: the sample library Eric was using did sound every bit as real as today's stuff..

Just my opinion
Meet Eric..

Peter is not only a good demonstrator, he is also a GREAT entertainer and performer, which is what sells the machines - Good players are a dime a dozen, Fran, and you know that. I know lots of professionally trained players that couldn't entertain if their lives depended upon it. I also know great entertainers and performers who can't play worth a damned, but they still make a great living using a keyboard, piano, guitar and accordion.

Cheers,

Gary

I started out playing trumpet, but I am SO guilty of doing the same thing I was criticizing him for doing. That's why I'm so aware of it, because I have to guard against it. When I'm playing sax or trumpet I actually do as Diki recommended, hold my breath or sing along with the ride.
Ian, I used to play guitar, but haven't picked one up in quite a while other than to strum around the house a little. I have had the honor of playing with some world class pickers though, and I try to listen to them and learn something every time. I thought I was ready to die and go to Heaven when James Burton complimented my guitar emulation one night! He said something like, "you can do all that and don't even have callouses".
I think the secret is to keep it simple. I get in trouble by playing too much and too fast.
I play best regardless of the sound if I don't think about it.
To paraphrase Chevy Chase in Caddyshack, BE THE MUSIC.

This is a really nice demo. However, nothing that can't also be replicated on the T4 or S950. Nice demo still nonetheless. In other words, it's down to the player.

Ha well its a great pity that we can't all be masters of our craft like Fran and Diki, this place never fails to surprise me and put a huge smile on my face, be nice if they could both hold their breath for about a week, at least if Diki did he would never get banned again. BTW I think PB is a better demonstrator than the guy in the white trainers that Don got to demo your lionstracs MS Fran, he's still there on YouTube but the MS has gone, there's a moral in the story there that surely you-know-who will come up with some smart ass answer. If PB was a member on SZ would you say the same to him on here and post it, no you wouldn't, just like people on SZ don't tell you how bad they think you sound singing and playing, at least with Diki he is just the silent assassin, he's smart enough not to post his works.

BTW I am going shooting this morning last days of the season, "DOES ANYONE WANT TO COME WITH ME" I will listen to you sing then. see how high the notes are...

Be OK I suppose if PB was demoing Roland, he'd be perfect then, but he's not that daft.

Hammer,

I think you know the answer to that, accordion to SZ they could not be bothered going to one, Yamaha do their research and the USA would simply be a waste of time, now gas guzzling motorbikes that's different, BTW Hammer how long can you hold your breath, not too long I hope, we want you back over in the UK swinging on the keys, we will let you in.

The sales figures will tell all Danny, it is one vast improvement, have you played one yet.

Tony

The cold facts are that Peter can play circles around most of us here on SZ, including his critics.

I was fortunate enough to spend several days working with Peter when the S950 and S750 were being introduced, and in spite of his exceptional musical abilities, he is a very humble person, with a very quick dry wit.

Peter has extensive musical training, which does not get in the way of his expressive playing, but serves to enhance it, and he is a very, very capable improviser, especially on piano.

Great talent and humility are a nice combination, also seen in the personage of fellow SZ'er, Spalding1968 (Worth Quarrie) who, was gracious enough to send me a DVD of his youth choir which he accompanies (and does all the musical arrangements) on a rather old Korg PA1X which simply sounds as good, under his capable fingers, as anything Korg makes today.

Great talent impresses me, Tony, but talent and humility (the latter not to be mistaken for insecurity) does an even better job.

Ian

BTW...I still enjoy that video of you playing that huge multiple manual concert organ...the one that rose out of the floor...great playing, my friend. If your shooting is as good as your playing, those birds are in sheep dit.

Hi Tony,

The T5 will no doubt sell very well, it's an exceptional sounding keyboard. I haven't tried a T5 as I don't live anywhere near a store that would have one on show.

Tony, I think you should read my post again...or better yet, have someone read it to you
I read at least 3 other comments that agree with my opinions.."Realistic way of playing a flute, sax, trumpet.."
If it has to be explained any clearer to you...you just don't get it!!

Lionstracs owner is "Dom" not "Don"..another example of senile
Hopefully the only thing you are shooting with...is a camera..we don't need another wacko out there with a gun..

isnt that always a problem....and one I see time and time again..people play the arranger sounds like a piano instead of the way the instrument should be played & sound.
As a kid in music class I would go to see the NY Philharmonic Orchestra and sit there with my eyes closed to pick out each instrument being played in songs and try to guess what they were.....even difficult ones like bassoon, Piccolo, Oboe, marimba, Glockenspiel, etc,......it's real good practice to do this even if you listen to recordings with closed eyes.....it will let you develop a sense of how the instrument should be played on the arranger KB so you can recreate it while playing a song.

Donny, do have any recordings of yourself emulating any of the above instruments?

I find Sax about the hardest, and I'm still working on it, and much better than I used to be. I think the SA2 voices really helped as well.

When I did Somewhere Over The Rainbow, back on one of the other threads, I found the T4's SA2 Jazz Sax a real treat to play.

The SA Saxophone in the S950 is really good as well...any tunes you have done that can showcase it?

Ian

Ian I rarely use any Sax except the GROWL Sax which I love for solos ......sometimes I'll use the Tenor for Bossas etc......
I never use the mod wheel also but that's just my style of playing... if I get time I'll record a few licks with different instrument on the S950 for you....there are no rules I say just good sounding music...I'm no Peter Baartmans playing but I don't think he sings as well as me either just sayin',lol but, I'm confident in my abilities & hold my own on stage with the best of them playig My Way..

How about you Fran...do you have any recordings of yourself emulating sax or trumpet etc.?

The G-70 has no "gimmicks" to rely on, so it would have to come down to your own skill as a player in emulating these instruments, which is what I expect that you would prefer (no gimmicks)...or would having SA/SA2 type voices be a benefit on something like the G-70?

Ian

If you don't use the wheel, how are you getting the sax to bend notes, as a real sax player would do?

The S950's SA Sax would be advantageous because it will switch automatically to mono for more realism, as a sax player can only produce one note at a time.

Do you have your Growl Sax (I like to use that one too occasionally) set to Mono?

Ian

This is the Achilles Heel of the arranger... Unless you use a Chord Sequencer or SMF's/MP3's, your LH is pretty much tied up doing the chords for the most part, and you can ONLY bend, scoop, etc. when you can spare the hand away from those damn chords!

But listen to a real sax player, and you seldom hear notes that ARE 'straight'... The sax is VERY sensitive to lip pressure and breath force, bite strength etc., and everything is somewhat 'loose' pitch-wise. You have to almost constantly ride the pitch bender to get something close.

I'm afraid I'm not a big fan of the majority of SA2 type gimmick horn tricks, because they seldom seem to happen when YOU want them, only when specific intervals or hit strengths are reached. They sound great when you listen back, but I get that disconnected feel actually playing them. But that's just me... as a horn player, I expect the 'tricks' when I PLAY them, not when some machine tells me I should do them!

I do like the mono/poly behavior depending on whether you play single lines or chords on the Roland SN saxes, but I'm kind of glad that none of that gliss stuff has appeared yet. I'd rather do it with a F/Sw than a button (again, I'm busy playing!), but all in all, I'd rather PLAY it than have a sample do it.

Ian, the problem with what I called gimmicks..it becomes a crutch, that a player depends on too much..As for me being a capable player to showcase a sax etc...basically I know you need to layback in phrasing and leave breathing room...other than that I I also play as a keyboard player

Well, to each his own...I think the SA/SA2 voices are incredibly expressive, considering they are played from a keyboardd and, of course, like any other feature, it depends on how the player uses them.

I haven't heard anything close to SA/SA2 Saxes on another arranger...well, perhaps the Korg DNC Sax, but again, it depends on the player.

I'm more interested in my listener at least identifying the instrument I'm playing is a Sax, rather than try to perfectly emulate a Sax, which, to be frank, is really only achievable with a Breath Controller.

Certainly recording the Sax track afterwards would be far better, which is what I sometimes do when making a Cd, but, I can also live with the limitations of playing it in style mode live.

Ian

Diki, that's why they have a hold feature on the left hand so the player can lift his or her hand and use the pitch bend, push buttons, etc... Guys like Don Mason are a treat to watch perform, mainly because his left hand only touches the left hand chord for a fraction of a second, then it quickly goes to the pitch bend device for his guitar emulations, which are absolutely incredible.

Gary

I suppose gimmicks could become a crutch for some...for me, anything that will let me put more expressiveness in a sound is greatly appreciated, so bring on the gimmicks...actually, they are just tools of the trade.

I still love to use the wheels as they certainly offer a finer degree of control, but I am not above using the SA Buttons as well.

My favorite use for the wheels is bending distortion or jazz guitar sounds and also the lead synth sounds as well.

I'm working on my fiddle/violin technique lately...that is a real challenge, at least for me.

But, it's also a lot of fun!

I simply LOVE retirement!

Ian

Ian, the fiddle is tough, but I love it as well, especially when I'm performing various bluegrass songs. The fingering technique is even more difficult to make it sound right, but it can be done with practice.

Gary

Gary,

I'm working on making the bow skip on the strings...done with alternating the thumb and index finger on the same note while playing a higher note (usually a 4th or 5th) with the little finger. The Tyros4's SA2 Jazz Violin is pretty effective and it's coming along pretty good.

Last week it was banjo...that was a hoot.

Ian

Hey Fran bet you won't forget Dom in a hurry, at least he didn't get this silly old gits money, that's how senile I am, anyway Fran got a bit of respect for you now you are at least using my name at last, anyway Dom or Don everyone on SZ knows exactly what I mean, they don't need you to correct me.

Nope i won't forget Dom...he never refused to help me...he gave me the original MS X-76..I only paid shipping from Lee...He sold me updates at cost or a small mark up....Nope I won't forget Dom....Now everyone on SZ knows what I'm talking about....

Gary,

I'm sure you get Diki's point about how a lot of bends seem to occur at chord changes. It's not that big a deal, as evidenced by DonM's guitar emulations, but it's an issue for some.

With me, I've been dealing with that for years, and it's never a bother. I just do the best I can with the hand I've been dealt. The Tyros4 doesn't have a chord sequencer, which would make it easier, but I wouldn't buy another brand just for that feature, and give up the sounds I love on my Yamaha.

I'm not that much of a perfectionist...I just want the listener to be at least able to identify the instrument I'm emulating at the time. That's good enough for me.

Ian

I was kind of rootin' for Dom, as he had the testicular fortitude to attempt something new, and, he even tried to include us arranger players, the finicky lot that we are.

He certainly seemed very passionate about what he was doing, and I admire that in a person.

He also seemed like a nice guy.

Ian

I'm a horn player. T'bone was my college major.

My problem in arranger mode is, I KNOW what I want to play (and can generally play it!), the trouble is, chording gets in the way.

The big difference is generally, keyboard players are content to have the machine put the 'tricks' in for them, and are just happy that they occur at all! But horn players know WHEN they want the tricks, and it often coincides with chord boundaries.

This is very easy to test for yourself. Make an arranger backing sequence or SMF (or use your CS!). Now play a sax solo over the top with BOTH hands. Now go back and listen to how often you bent at the same time the chords were changing.

If you are getting the sax part realistic, it will be almost every time you change chords!

I think guitar is easier to emulate than sax, but either is far easier if you don't have to change chords and have left hand free for the bends, mods, strips, beams, etc.
I don't particularly like the SA stuff, preferring to do more myself, but that's probably because I haven't taken the time to learn to play them properly--old dog, new trick syndrome.
Toughest to do while playing chords is pedal steel. Everything seems to occur as the chord changes.
Being a trumpet player originally, I know what it's supposed to sound like, and what it can do, including range and limits.

I use the SA Buttons on the wind instruments about 1/3 of the time...the wheels are just that much easier to use to add very subtle pitch offsets. The beauty of the buttons is that you can usually preset a bend or trill by pressing the button a tad before you hit the note, so it does help a bit when a chord change would otherwise make it difficult to use the wheel.

The pedal steel on the Tyros4 is pretty realistic, but the bends do seem to want to be activated at chord changes. I also like to layer two guitar patches, with only one responding to the pitchbend wheel...that way I can bend one note up to be in unison with the other.

The SA/SA2 sounds themselves (winds, strings guitars etc.) are excellent nonetheless, so I don't mind the trade-off.

I went to quite a few seminars at Yamaha Head Office in Scarborough Ontario after I completed the Electone course, where we were instructed in the ranges of the orchestral instruments, and that has proved valuable for using the arranger.

Ian

Of course, you are aware that you can use a standard foot pedal and do the bends as well, thus allowing you to work on those left hand chord changes at the same time. Whoops, I forgot - Donny don't need no stinkin pedals!

Gary

I have used the pedal for bending, Gary, and it does a pretty good job, but now I'm using it as a volume pedal 100% of the time.

I find it far more useful in that mode.

When I comped behind a vocalist or soloist I used to have one registration button for the comp sound volume, and another louder one for my leads. I now have the volume pedal set to control only the Right Hand sounds, and it works much better than the former method.

Ian

The problem with bending using the expression pedal is, a sax can bend BOTH ways. And you want the expression pedal to make phrases tail away, or swell...

There simply is no easy way round the problem unless you are content to let the machine decide for you where and when the 'tricks' are going to happen.

I am pretty confident I have never heard a convincing SA sax part that wasn't done after the backing was laid down, and probably edited in a sequencer, as well. If you listen to the factory demos, it is MORE than obvious...

Yep, that's why I said earlier, I'm glad I'm not that much of a perfectionist...I can get quite a bit of realism if I add the sax track afterwards, but I'm also just as content to lose a bit and play in real time. As long as my listener can at least recognize the instrument I am emulating, that works for me just fine.

Playing the arranger has always had a huge element of fun in it, and I made a promise to myself a long time ago, that I would quit if it was no longer fun. What is really cool, is that since I've retired, it has actually become even more fun than ever, and, I'm actually playing the Tyros4 far more often, way more than I did when working.

Probably this is due to my playing with a lot more freedom, as I used to have to learn tunes that were more likely to showcase the arranger's features, and they weren't necessarily tunes I wanted to record or just sit down and enjoy playing for it's own sake.

I've got some tentative plans for playing some working gigs after the winter, but I also won't be disappointed if they don't materialize. Losing three very close friends the past year or so, has made me not only reflect even more on living each day to the fullest, but to also, to take things even less seriously than I had been doing.

My uncle used to say, "Death is a great teacher." I now more fully understand what he meant by it.

I didn't intend for this post to become all philosophical...so, back to the real fun...playing!

Ian

Ian,

You know that some of the audiences listening to KB been played would not be able to recognise a grand from an upright, a trumpet from a trombone, blah blah blah, what is all this about, when these old Gits are sat in their own poop in an APH, I can just image them being experts then. I am becoming very philosophical more by the day, I mean lets face it, a breathy sax or trumpet on a KB who gives a toss, about two here on SZ and perhaps world wide.

How about a breathy guitar... for old gits guitar players with rheumatic, from serious T5 Demo to serious tosh

All you are describing Tony, is YOUR audience! Mine knows what they are listening to. But those Homes for the Deaf are good gigs if you can get them!

This is perhaps why Yamaha don't sell many KB in the USA, this is like that old Lionstracs demo on YouTube, pretty poor.

The Tryrooooos 5

But an Honest demo..

You want us to go out and find every excremental T5 demo from the EU, Tony?

Shouldn't be hard...

Don't want YOU to do anything Diki

Is that it Donny!! When someone goes into a shop in the USA and gets a demo like that would they buy a T5, doubt it, maybe buy a guitar.

Just in case you thought I was been a bit unfair, another reason
to buy a guitar from this shop or a mouthorgan