love both. My earlier attempts at Roland (e,g) wasn't good. styles (to me) were too busy and not enough for the 'old folks' stuff. Maybe the BK has changed. I'd love to have a light weight 76.

TOO BUSY shouldn't be a problem with any arranger today as it's so easy to mute style parts to your liking ...all three of these MOTL units are more then capable to use for gigs of any genre as they all sound so closely good,.....the only concern should be personal operational features & navigational playing preferences IMO. For me Out of the three models after my S-950 the Pa900 would be next as it has speakers & touch screen, multipads, VH, vs the BK9.

Listening to the demo made me actually realise once again how much i like the current Korg sound

Both arrangers sounded really really good however, i think its a personal preference but the arrangements on the Pa900 sounded much more ballanced... Same for the solo instruments..

I dont think one could make a mistake in buying any of these 2 ..... And since you can addapt sound to your pesonal preferences, i think i would end up doing a feature comparison between these two and the yamaha s950 if i where in the market for a motl arranger...

First let me say that if one is going to compare 2 KBs, the voices used in EACH comparison should be the same, no? ... not organ on one KB and guitar on the other, or guitar on one and vibes on the other ...play the same melody with the same - or most similar - style, using the same voices ...
Second, I think some of the sax voices on the KORG are a little 'wanting'... I still think some of the sax voices on my kn6000 are better ...
All that being said, I to my ears the KORG sounded considerably better ... that could be my current KORG bias, but I don't think so ...

Thanks dnj!

I have listen to all videos and must say each arranger has strong and weak sides.

The s950 has very good sounds specialy organs,but over all it sounds as if I was listening to a cd , no life.

The pa900 very live sounds but often styles sounds like a juxtaposition of instruments all played at the same level.

The BK-9 has the best styles, a lot of nuances, even if the balance between style and solo wasn't set right. Best piano, drums and bass of all but realy not as good as the two others for the other instuments.

Having listened to all the demos posted on this and other sites of various brands of arranger keyboards and synths, plus playing a pretty good number of the latest arrangers keyboards first hand, I've always felt the definition of a "LIVE" sounding keyboard was one that was one where the sounds were harsher and unpolished, somewhat louder within the styles themselves, and sharper sounding, often to the point of being a bit distorted. Now, I have yet to hear the 900 in person, but I have listened to a lot of demos. Personally, I don't hear enough difference between all of the MOTL and TOTL arrangers to sway me one way or another, and if I'm not impressed, I know my audiences will not be impressed.

From the standpoint of a full-time musician/singer/entertainer the question that begs to be answered is "Will I sound any better to my audiences?" For me, the obvious answer is NO! At least not enough to make a significant difference and justify the financial outlay involved. But, maybe I'm just a lot easier to please when it comes to these situations. I would much rather put that money into my retirement account, which my loving wife of more than a half century will eventually withdraw and leisurely piss away on jewelry or some other crazy things. I guess that's why every time I go out and test drive another keyboard she always says "What's wrong with the ones you have?" Of course, I try to evade the question, but she is absolutely right.

Cheers,

Gary

You will not hear much difference between a brands motl and totl arrangers..

However in the PA900 vs PA3x comparrison its obvious that the d/a converters of the pa900 or of lower quallity making everything sound just a tad less dynamic.

The biggest difference however between motl and totl mostly comes from the pro feautures in the top model, like in Korgs example... Ballanced XLR outputs, a sampler, better keybed, sliders, better harmoniser, and stuff like that... But the siund engine and the style engine are both exactly the same.... Oh and keep in mind that the price difference between a PA900 for 1800 euro and a pA3x for 2600 euro is much more in proportions compared to the excesive price of the Tyros5 for 4000 euro vs the Psr s950 for 1900 euro..

I'm sitting here with PA3X and BK9 side by side. Love them both. For different reasons of course.

Don good luck with your new BK9 cant wait for demo videos country style...Hurry!!

I'm only playing jazz from now on. Country is too hard.

Does that mean you only need one chord and an insane right hand?

Gary

This is the exact same problem as the S950/BK-9 comparison. This doofus is taking them out of the box and playing them without the slightest effort to balance them style/RH balance and volume wise...

What I wouldn't give for a chance to plug a bloody expression pedal in both of these. I don't get it. If these things are supposed to be the descendants of home organs (and marketed to the same kind of players) why no friggin' volume pedal? All it would take is riding the pedal a hair, and the style/RH balances would have been much better!

If he's reading this... on Roland's, PUT THE BALANCE KNOB TO 9-10 O'CLOCK! Or the RH will drown out the backing.

Here is a company that knows how to make demos..and you can really compare..

Another example

An another..

Another..

Top model..

Diki, do it! Then post some videos so we can see and hear the results.

Gary

Diki, do it! Then post some videos so we can see and hear the results.
Gary [quote]

....seriously I'd love to hear that.

I think we can say the BK9 sounds better then the old G70..

I may need to make more popcorn.

Ian

I'm starting a new duo with a great singer down here, and plan to use the BK-9 rather than my G70, so I think it won't be TOO long before it's demo ready (I'm not exactly rushing to use it while the G70 still does the job, and is still the better keyboard for live band use). I'll post something when it meets my standards (the down side of being picky!).

In the meantime, I still think the LaPietradelParagone demos show what the keyboard is capable of best. Very few swamp the backing with the RH, and you all know how I HATE that! I just don't get it... you pay a fortune for a backing keyboard, then play so loud you can barely hear the backing! Might as well use a 20 year old arranger for all the good you can hear it, LOL

http://www.youtube.com/user/LaPietradelParagone/videos

Back to the rehearsal room. LOL

Whole house is the rehearsal room!

My singer/guitarist backs himself solo with an S950, so my first order of business will be taking his sequences and converting them for the Roland! Then stripping them down to mostly just bass and drums.

We've A/B'd the two back to back before, he really likes the live sound of the BK-9... I really like the guitar sounds in the S950!

If only Yamaha made an S950 module, LOL

But, as soon as I'm done getting the sequences done, I'm going to try doing a whole lot more LH bass/drums in arranger mode (I kick the Variation/Fills with an FC-7) with him on guitar and just avoid the whole auto-accompaniment thing as much as possible. Personally, I think people like to SEE musicians play, not press buttons!

But what do I know? LOL

More to come...

Whatever works...keep your stick on the ice. LOL

And, be careful of all those buttons. There's no telling who'll be listening (and watching).

Ian

NSA gets first approval of the mixes, LOL

At least you don't have to get it by the NHL.

Helmet optional. LOL

Ian

Now THAT explains a lot, Ian!

I've been saying for a couple of years that I wish I had those PSR950 guitar sounds to play with on a Korg or Roland.
I finally got a couple of guitars I really love for the Korg though.

I have three current favorite guitar sounds on my Tyros4.

The first is SA Single Coil Clean with my own personal amp setting...a little distortion and delay mainly.

The next is the SA Pedal Steel...pretty accurate as is.

The third is one I made from the Clean Jazz Guitar but run through a tube amp (sounds a bit like a Fender Twin) with some smooth distortion.

The others are all very nice, and often, my favorites change from time to time.

That's the beauty of these arrangers...you can pretty well dial in whatever you want, and whatever your imagination can conjure up.

Ian

If the styles ( i call it dead styles) are too busy ( mainly poorly written bass and chord lines) and or too dry , that's what the player is trying to mask ( and also trying to do his best to put better dynamics/expressiveness with the style).
A well written style with good expressive dynamics will not have that problem.Left hand alone is sufficient.R hand for OCCATIONAL pad/strings/small licks when singing ( unless you are playing the melody).


I found it to be the case with most styles in BK and also new PAs. (only few styles are good IMO).

We are taking about bad bass lines /fill -licks that are not very generic enough to cover most songs or too plain when you progress to the next variation.

Not everyone WANTS to let the arranger play it all. There are a lot of players that simply want the arranger fill in for what they CAN'T play themselves, Jamman.

For me, the primary use for the Dynamic Arranger is if you are playing in full PianoStyle Mode. Then the way it follows your dynamics is sublime. It's got nothing to do with how the Variations build and ebb. It's about how the SAME Variation can be more dynamic when you WANT it.

I'm sorry, but the vast majority of user demos AND many of the pro demos ALL swamp the backing. Regardless of manufacturer, style or sound. It's just the natural tendency to want to hear YOURSELF while you play, even on a sound that shouldn't really be that loud.

It's quite easy to demonstrate. Record an arranger performance into the sequencer. Set up the volumes to where you usually like them. Now listen back, and start to back down the keyboard Parts (if you played any! LOL). You would be amazed at how far down you can turn them, and still hear them clearly in the mix..!

It's a wakeup call to us all... Learn to play IN the mix, not ON the mix. Your audience will love you for it, and you may very well get a lot more dancers now they can HEAR a beat to dance to!

I agree that there is a big difference between style Parts that are too busy, and style parts that are too loud. In fact, it's one of the things I notice a LOT, because I'm looking for room in the mix to PLAY. Sure, I need a guitar part going, but if it's busy, less room for me. On the whole, you tend to find older legacy styles are much better to play on top of. Nowadays, the tendency is towards styles that do it all (which you seem to like), but older arrangers didn't sound that great, so what YOU played made up for it. I still have a collection of styles from the G1000 days that, although I've converted them to use the much better, newer sounds, still work better than the current styles because there's ROOM for me to play!

And sorry, but for me, the drier the mix, on the whole, the better! The room I play in is going to add in a bunch of ambiance I won't hear that well, but the audience does. Wetting up the mix so it sounds great through cans like it is in a live room, if you play it INTO a live room it means a double dose of ambiance!

No need to apologize, Diki...it's okay to be YOU.

If anything, you are probably more understood here, than elswhere, although that may not be much consolation to you.

We usually all have different tastes and varied needs, so thankfully, we can adjust our instruments to suit what we want to hear, and perhaps, more importantly to some, what we want our audience to hear.

If one brand doesn't give us what we need or want...there's always another...that's the luxury we have because one manufacturer sees things different than another.

You know...something like us musicians.***

I'm always extra careful to be sure I'm in the mix...not on it...it's something we were advised to pay attention to a very long time ago when studying Electone organ...it was actually part of the course.

That's why I spend a lot of time editing styles and One Touch Settings, and it's also why I use a volume pedal.

I am sometimes surprised how few arranger players use the latter, but, again, different needs and wants.

A volume pedal is also especially handy if the player is singing or accompanying a vocalist or soloist. It's much easier to find the right balance using the pedal, than depending on preset panel volume(s) or to try adjusting a slider or knob while playing.

Ian

*** That's also why it's literally impossible to have everyone on SZ agree on something.

Well, I can completely agree with that post, Ian, so I guess that's a start..!

A keyboard without a swell pedal is like a car with no accelerator or brake pedal, just on/off switches! Potentially, a disaster (mind you, down here in the South, looks like most people can't even make those work on ice!).

Not only are there other brands, but other brand's STYLES too, which you can find converted (or convert yourself). With work and patience, you can often lick them into acceptable shape, so if you are looking more more room to play (or less!) you aren't simply locked into your arranger's ROM styles...