in reality who the heck is playing this kind of ensemble music?
with all that wasted R&D money they could have created and added added some incredible hip modern styles & made changes players are asking for to t5....what were they thinking with Ensemble?? Im sure ensemble will attract the younger set to play arrangers, maybe the MINUET Hip Hop Style!!?......NOT!!

The person doing the videos is from a different country with different musical interests and I don't think that she works for Yamaha. I was referring to the ensemble instruments and the way they blended together.

Ensemble voices - Strings

I can understand that and they are done very well.....
but I don't think that kind of music is popular anywhere in the world today anymore...I could be wrong?..just sayin'..
but was it needed to be so highlighted in a new tyros unit this time around?...What was discussions on this genre was going in in the R&D pre-meeting room before they built it & agreed it had to be implemented?.....and they utterly ignore years of requests by faithful users to include certain features asked for year after year, touch screen, MFSD concerns, keybed, chord sequencer, neutrik Mic inputs, size, etc, etc, ..meanwhile your paying for ensemble features?

sorry for venting....but I am sirtrting here trapped in a Major snowstorm
I will now go listen to

Beethoven: Violin Sonatas
Leonidas Kavakos & Enrico Pace

Its the kind of music that sells arrangers in europe...

And since arrangers sell good in europe and not in the US, this feauture and these sounds have a valid place...

If thats the case...This is probably why arranger Kb as a whole will NEVER become main stream world wide for younger people vs workstations, computer based modern music, etc, etc, ..I guess they have to follow the $$$$$$$$$$$ as always..

That "kind of music" is more popular than you think, Donny...you are just not in the group of players that would use it.

I have had a lot of emails from people very interested in the Tyros5's Ensemble feature, some wanting to use it for classical type music or Big Band Swing stuff as well.

I'm not sure how often I would use it, but, perhaps like in your case as well, my needs aren't everyone's needs.

Ian

ok Ian I stand corrected,......I'm learning things every day & respect the genre for those who enjoy it,....was Ensemble requested by the European masses to be included in T5? or?.. if this keeps up I am starting to feel alienated as a American player using Yamaha arrangers vs KORG & Roland in the future.

But since you are the one that only needs 30 styles in an arranger, maybe we build you a special arranger withe like 30 styles and 20 solo instruments to choose from.... Espescially geared for the music you prefer to play...



In arrangers my friend its not about the things of the features you dont use, but about the ones you do use... And the instrument is meant to work for every musician and every style of music he wants to play.... Thats the power of arrangers... One size fits all...

I HOPE there is a demand for baroque, classic and romantic music - and not only hip modern styles... and I can confirm that the soloist I often accompany is getting enough requests to sing classical music, operettes or musicals, not only at church wedding ceremonies (in Germany).
And the ensemble voices can also be used for swing. I can't imagine there are no audiences in the US which appreciate classical music during dinner for example.

BTW, the owner of that homepage works freelance for Yamaha Central Europe (she has given presentations since the 1980s for Yamaha), I just looked it up on her personal homepage.

I think there is a app for this section in today's pop music but Donny you also have a point the ensemble section is still too early for me to comment I have not found myself using it yet. But we will see. I am hopeful they will add some newer things via download hiper stuff as a sound and style library I would like to see more stuff to download that is for today type of stuff that would help to gain a younger buying group.

I've been playing arrangers professionally since their inception, and various KB's & synths, 20 years before that,....No problem, Like I said 30+ styles is all I need for what I do ..I also wish Yamaha would allow default styles to be deleted like the other brands so you can truly make the KB your own.

I find the responses to Donny's post interesting because when Frankie V demo'ed the T5 for me and showed me this feature, my response was "Nice, but WHO is going to use it?" ... well, like Donny, I have learned that perhaps there are many people who will use it ...

if this keeps up I am starting to feel alienated as a American player using Yamaha arrangers vs KORG & Roland in the future. [/quote]

While the ensemble feature seems like a very nice feature which could work very nicely in many types of music, I too feel alienated by the Tyros. I hear no representation of "real" authentic contemporary Latin dance styles. There's some nice Spanish flamenco, ballroom Latin, and bossa nova, but where's the styles that we need in the Americas? The Tyros is very Euro-centric which is forcing me to look else where.

I agree,............I play one yes, it does the job,.....but am I really excited to do so not so much, I'm not CRAZY IN LOVE with it after 1yr so far....just a tool of the trade..actually only the PA900 is a consideration for my needs at this time.

I'm not familiar with the Tyros... but is it a problem to load additional custom-made styles?? The BK-7m can do it. This can't be a reason to buy a different instrument, can it?

Yes there's all sorts of 3rd party styles out there however the quality and authenticity ( at least in Latin) is very poor.

YEAH, Donny ... c'mon over to MY side ...

Paul, here's five more styles for you to use. http://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?topic=23993.0

Gary

Oh boy, here we go .....

I think that you dont understand the european keyboard players and there taste of music .
And we dont understand the US market, the US music scene doesnt take the arranger keyboard serious
and you never seen ant serious review of any of them like we have here in europe ( http://www.tastenwelt.de/twhome.0.html )
And dont forget that the most Tyros buyers are mostly aged 50+ , and this group have a lot of money to spend these days.
My dealer has sold more than 100 tyros 5 , before it was to play in the shop. Thats serious bussines .

Impuls

Tony I already had the Pa3x or did you forget?
But I'll admit The Pa900 is my second choice at this time after the S950...
they each have things the other doesnt.

... how COULD I forget with all the help you gave me ... I should have said "c'mon BACK over to MY side... "

I think the Tyros 5 ensemble voices sound absolutely lovely. I have been using them more and more playing them with styles. Perhaps the video shows other ways and types of music using these voices that some see unpopular in the US?? I totally disagree..............These voices should be treated as any other voice bank one would use. They seem to have a better way of playing harmonies while playing styles. Even with Tyros 5's harmony button turned on the harmonies are lovely playing single finger melodies. If you have the skills to play multiple finger right hand the results are even better. All this to my ears of course.......................-charley

Love the Tyros 5,
At this stage not so much the ensemble, or the organ world. However the balance for the money is excellent. The guitars! Well i challenge any other arranger, synth to give better guitars, with the dsp on board it's fabulous. My repitoire has opened up imensley just with this inclusion.
Hoping instead if a Tyros 6 that Yamaha develope new and greater add ons for a price to the T5! It can be done and the new advances awm should allow for it.

Tony it was my pleasure,....would do it again at the drop of a hat for you my friend ....glad your getting along now with the PA900..

I can't believe Donny can't think of a use for this stuff! This is NH heaven!

I don't think Donny has quite got a grasp of what's going on with this feature. Think of all your UNISON brass patches... A trumpet, a couple of saxes, a trombone. Let's just take that as a starter.

So you play ONE note, they ALL play that one note. But when you play TWO notes, now you have twice as many players, because the trpt, 2 saxes and trombone are playing BOTH notes. Three notes, 12 brass players, 4 notes 16, etc., etc.. Not to mention, there isn't much range you can play that tutti sound in before either the trumpets get screechy, or the trombone becomes a tuba!

What the Ensemble feature does, when you are simply PLAYING it, is it SPLITS those players up... play one note, all four are on one note.Play two notes, and one of the trumpets and a sax play one of the notes, and the other sax and the t'bone plays the OTHER note. Play a four note chord, and only one instrument plays each sound. Just like the real thing!

The other thing you may have missed is, if you use the Melody Intelligence feature (or whatever Yamaha call it - you play a chord in the left hand, and single notes played in the RH section now play chords), it splits THOSE notes into single notes for each sound. So you get a FAR more accurate voicing for ensemble work.

For big band and jazz, this is amazing. But it also applies to ANY pop brass and wind voicing. Thing EWF, think Chicago, think Tower of Power. OK, not necessarily NH material, but you wanted examples of what you could do with it..!

I would be ecstatic if this feature were added to a Roland (some of the WS's can already do something similar, along with the VPP's, I think, but no arranger yet).

If this does not appear to be useful to you Donny, the failure is in your imagination, not the basic usefulness of the feature.

At the recent keyboard clinic, I got to try the Ensemble a little bit on my buddy Johnny's Tyros5-76, using it, as Diki mentioned above, with the Big Band/Jazz styles, as my friend is a very capable jazz player. Needless to say, it freaked the two of us out...pretty startlingly realistic. Almost uncanny even without adding the Harmony Voice Effect that reads the left hand chord and applies appropriate notes...some of the harmony settings we tried were pretty complex, (4-Way open/close) with equally complex chords, but because the individual sounds were separated it didn't turn into mush...it actually sounded like a bunch of horn players, including the very slight tuning discrepancies, and phrasing imperfections.

I can get a little bit close with the Tyros4 SA Horns and Saxes and Trumpets when stacking R1, R2 and R3 and carefully assigning the harmony to each sound, and tweaking the tuning a bit, but it really wouldn't put a patch on the new Ensemble's arse.

The only thing I tried on the Ensemble Strings was using a factory preset and the full keyboard (no style) to play the tune Yesterday...it sounded pretty cool, but I'm sure I could get better results if I dug into the settings, or used it with the style I have made especially for the tune (it has various string sounds with a lone acoustic guitar) if I dug into it a bit. Again, even without my tweaking, it was very realistic.

All in all, both of us thought it was pretty clever, and I'm looking forward to our next clinic.

Ian

PS...At the next clinic I'll try and record myself playing a few tunes using Tyros5's Ensemble Strings and Brass to give an idea what these things sound like when played by your average arranger player.

I'll make sure to convert them to Audio.

The people in nursing homes today, in their 70s to 90s enjoy hearing songs that were popular when they were in their prime, 30, 40 or 50 years ago. This means they like songs from the 1950s, 60s and 70s. I never play Big Band or Swing songs in the nursing homes.
However it seems the Ensemble feature would be good for a lot of things, from James Brown to the Beatles, to the Tijuana Brass, Ray Charles . . .lots of things.
I like to retain the feeling of a small 4-piece band most of the time. Drums, Bass, Guitar, Piano plus selected lead voices such as Sax and Organ. That's why there are so many options and so many great choices.

90 year olds didn't reach their prime until 40 years old? LOL

Most of us, as we get older and more calcified (count me in!) tend to return to the songs from their teens and twenties, MAYBE 30's too. And also songs we remember OUR parents listening to when we were young.

So, your average 80 year old was listening to 60-70 year old music early on (and their parent's too). This is squarely in big band years.

Heck, I grew up listening to it and I'm not yet in my 60's! Don't forget, Basie, Ellington and many more were still performing into the 60's and even 70's.

But yeah, I'd want the feature for TOP, EWF, Chicago, and a million funk and reggae tunes. But I still like to jam a little Miller when I'm at the house and no-one's listening! Check out the BK-9 factory Performance list for the one for American Patrol... Nails it!

I think Yamaha has set up the Tyros 5 voices and Ensemble Voices for all pllayers including the home hobbyist. No one keyboard can satisfy all players. If one want to play strickly modern
upbeat young peoples music get a Synth. I am an older player
and I find the styles and voices that satisfy an old coot.
Lloyd
PS: The Ensemble Voices are excellent and you are missing the boat if you don't see the usefulness in them.

As stated in the comments, the first song is La Bomba, not La Bamba ... a little more light on the dancers would have been nice ... ... I sure should have stuck to dance lessons ...

so, no doubt there is a use for the Ensemble other than classical ...

I think we are simply seeing the natural tendency here to put down a feature we haven't got..!

Bet you Donny will be telling how GREAT all this is the minute they stick it in the PSR series!

wouldn't want to take your money

Knocking it before you try it, Donny? LOL

it aint for me ...ensemble or tyros...sorry...
Margaritaville in a drunken bar crowd on cello or violin ...NOT!

everyone else enjoy ..

I simply thank God every day that arranger makers don't make arrangers for the limited use that Donny has for them. Just imagine! No inputs for sustain pedals (or anything else, for that matter), no voicing tricks like this (I guess Donny NEVER uses the Harmony/Echo feature - that's Yamahaspeak for Melody Intelligence, right?), no 76's... The list of stuff HE don't use is pretty long.

Margaritaville in a big band style to the NH inmates on an amazingly realistic big band sound? Nah! Probably never going to happen either!

What does the ensemble feature have to do with cello or violin? It's a random connection, it CAN be used for string ensembles the same way as for a "hip" funky brass section consisting of trumpet, 2 saxes and trombone.

Whatever it is it aint for me or my needs as is the other stuff diki mentioned above, ...arrangers are just that to be arranged to play music AS THE OPERATOR SEES FIT no need to put down how someone else does it because YOU think YOUR WAY is correct..

You are quoting my post: My post was exclusively referring to facts about ensemble voices and their scope of genres and instruments, not about judging anyone's way of playing.

Thing is, you might consider that an arranger that fit how YOU play one would not satisfy many here. Donny.

No-one's putting you down, just feel a bit sorry for you that you can't find the imagination and taste to appreciate something like this. That's a pretty small world you live in, pal. Wouldn't hurt to stretch out a bit, would it?

Hmmm ... it certainly sounds to me like you are putting someone down directly when you say they can't find the imagination or taste. Are you really that unintelligent to think that isn't putting someone down? I have to guess so. Treading on very thin ice here ... regardless of your displayed intelligence level. I'm trying to think of a reason I shouldn't just ban you.

So comments about Margaritaville in a drunken bar is subtle enough a put down to pass, but this wasn't..? LOL

That's right ... it doesn't put anyone down anyone directly by name like your posting does. You really don't see the difference between that and a direct personal attack?

OK... I will try in future to be less direct, but of course, everybody will still know EXACTLY who the barb is aimed at (like the Margaritaville comment).

Fair enough?

Why not just stick to music and arrangers here .

Oh come on! The weather and everybody's boats, grandkids and cars is WAY too much fun..!

Funny thing, though... this thread actually DOES mostly stick to an arranger theme. Or at least, how could something in an arranger POSSIBLY be any good if Donny doesn't want to use it?! LOL

Honestly Diki, I fail to see how continually mocking Donny's choices, or non-choices, in what he uses in his arranger, can result in anything constructive.

If your words weren't intended that way, then I apologize for misinterpreting your post.

But, would you want to try and change the way you use your arranger, if someone spoke to you, or about you, in that manner?

Ian

Look back through this thread Diki and you will see you began the personal attack and then continued it over many postings. Don't act like you are the one being unfairly attacked when you initiated it. I see from your response that you will be continuing your attacks but just not by name. That is not going to work for me.

You create much more of a negative atmosphere than a postive one. So on that note goodbye Diki. Fair enough?

@Nigel: You are the owner of this whole forum, aren't you?

Nigel,

How will Diki know when he is unbanned, I have never been banned so I would know, do you tell him by email, come back all is forgiven or does he keep trying to sign on until SZ lets him in, the later would be better cause it would be hellish frustrating keep typing you password in and it kick you out, just interested in the electronics of it all and how it works.

Yep Rosetree, Nigel's the boss here and he has his wife's permission to say so !!!

Tony,

Can you think of valid reason to UN-ban him?

Gary

Can anyone think of one should be the question Gary. Diki would never think of doing it to you in a 10 ft sq room with no windows or doors. It's the internet that allows him to crawl in. I don't think you will every get anyone to come to his rescue.

Good point, Tony.

Gary

Look Gary don't get me wrong, it's not what you do it's they way that you do it. The internet has a lot to blame for this kind of thing, lots of young people in the UK commit suicide from being bullied on FACEBOOK, I won't let my granddaughter go near it.

Tony

Okay, Diki did seem to have a death wish when it came to ban-able behavior on SZ but I don't see the point in 'piling on'.

chas

Chas,

Sometime the truth hurts, did Diki have only one death wish, I thought he had the self-destructed button held down 24 x 7. He took the pee out of me a few years back about the Audya and after he wrote me a PM., I binned and I am sorry, I would have posted it, he did apologise, but he did say he couldn't help himself. I think Nigel at the time said I should have been thankful I got an apology, or words to that affect. I can pile it on a bit more if you want Chas.

I still remember this old story my Martial Arts instructor used to tell every New Year.

A scorpion, being a very poor swimmer, asked a frog to carry him on his back across a river.

"Are you crazy?" said the frog. "You'll sting me while I'm swimming and I'll drown."

"My dear frog," laughed the scorpion, "if I were to sting you, you would drown and I would go down with you. Now where is the logic in that?"

"You're right!" cried the frog. "Climb on!"

The scorpion climbed aboard and halfway across the river gave the frog a deadly sting.

As they both sank to the bottom, the frog said, "Do you mind if I ask you something? You said there'd be no logic in your stinging me. Why did you do it?"

"It has nothing to do with logic," the drowning scorpion said with sadness. "It's just my character."

The story's moral? Some creatures just are what they are. It matters not how gently they are treated; their innate nature will cause them to harm even those who have shown them kindness.



Some people will always remain true to their nature, even when they know their actions will be as much their undoing, as well as their victims.

The instructor used to say, "How people treat you is their nature; how you react is yours.”

Ian

Yes

Hell Ian,

That's some story, don't think anyone can follow that, I think you have just stopped this thread in it's tracks. I think you should have be in the clergy.

Very nice story. Is a good guide to check our own reaction rather than being caught up in how others should be.

And with the topic, the Tyros 5 ensemble voices is a stand out from the other arrangers or even workstations especially if one wants to score orchestral pieces using an arranger. Many may argue that vsti sample libraries are better for such a thing, but imagine the ease with arranger keyboards come up with a quick idea/sketch pad for any genre one wants; nothing beats it.

The Tyros 4 is still a great board. The ensemble voices is a welcome addition to the already superb Tyros. Perhaps they could have added more user sample memory for more custom samples.

Thanks so much Jez for returning to what this thread was about in the first place.

Thanks Jez, a postscript to my little story is that we often can't control or anticipate what other people may do, but we can control our reaction to it.


Again, to nudge us further back on topic...

Even without the Ensemble feature, the arranger keyboard (from any brand) is a great sketch pad for getting down and developing a musical idea very quickly and neatly.

You can also find some inspiration in the intros and endings in a factory style, or even in some of the phrase, pad, and chord tracks within the main variations of a style.

Yamaha's "FreePlay" styles (which can usually be converted for use in other brands) are also good ways to overcome handicaps sometimes created by the strict timing of standard styles.

I was told that there is a room in Nashville where there are a number of arranger keyboards (allegedly Yamaha) that are used for musical sketch pads.

True story, or not, in my own experience, I have learned that these instruments (arrangers) provide an excellent tool to generate "prompts" or suggestions in music composition, as well as providing a quick and easy way to record a rough (or even finished) demo of a song.


Ian

@Nigel: Happy to do so

@Ian: I fully agree with you on the arranger being a sketch pad.
And the free play styles are really nice for playing with variable timing. I almost put my money on the MOX 8(which is a fine instrument for what it does) but I keep coming back to arrangers and chose the S950 instead. I love arrangers for the sheer ease of use, styles, sounds and the complete package that it is.

Here's La Bamba pretty cool If you could emulate something like this with "Ensemble".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjxtQrtnI7c

By the way my venerable old Korg 01W/FD has an 8 layered touch sensitive ORCHESTRA combination that is pretty awesome. When my granddaughter was 2 she played some pretty wicked James Bond background music with this setting Wish I had recorded it.

God Bless,
Don

This is exactly the music I like & will play when I get the T5 so I am very grateful for the feature. Beautiful songs played in Orchestral style. This is why it is so very important to have excellent sound quality (finally we are doing better at this) as no one will be dancing or singing...just listening to the performance on the instrument.

Can't wait to get the T5.

Lee

The T5 should be able to separate the instruments as seen in the video, (Although you will need to sort out a suitable playing technique) however don’t expect the same sound, Nuances, articulations or expression of the real instruments as the T5 does not have enough sample memory to incorporate all of them.

In addition make sure you have an expression pedal, as without it you will have no chance of making it sound like an orchestra. (Unless you play each track individually and use the modulation wheel for expression, but even then you will also lose a lot that is normally assigned to the modulation wheel)

Have fun with your T5

Bill