I wrote this in another thread. I thought it would make a good topic for comments.

* * * * * *

I sometimes think music is going to eventually be made by just one single unit where your current pop icon vocalist just presses a button when he's ready to release another (mindless) song and the machine spits it out. Kind of like a "password" software program where, after you set it up, it coughs up a different combination of "passwords" with each go! Or like Band in a Box....you give it a set of chords and it gives you back a melody while you mow the lawn.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more plausible it sounds in this age where people just take what's handed to them and don't question the quality or the integrity of what they're getting. Kind of like our latest gift to mankind...double-digit inflation! Just put it on someone's plate and they'll eat it no matter how toxic!

I shudder to think that's where music production and entertainment will eventually end up!

Mark

Hope there are no Yanni fans here, but the first thing that popped into my mind is.....nah, I better not say it.

...and arranger keyboards help this situation how?

chas

you ASKED for comments.

I truly believe that if all 'talent-assist' devices ie. arranger kb's, samplers, synths, etc. were suddenly banned, the quality of music, musicianship, music education, and MOSTLY, musical entertainment, would improve dramatically (as would the joy of PLAYING). JMO, of course.

You ain't just "whistlin' Dixie" with your remarks, Chas. Unfortunately, there's no "putting the toothpaste back into the tube!" It's out of the tube now and making an ugly mess all over the bathroom sink, floor, mirror, etc!

BTW....you forgot to add the latest gadget now entering the "Gadget Hall of Fame" to your "should be banned" list:

...."vocal pitch correctors" so that now even pregnant frogs can sound like Renee Fleming and enter and finish in the finals of some TV talent show!

Hey, don't knock 'vocal pitch correctors'.....that's what convinced us that Cher could sing .

I guess auto-accompaniment first reared it's ugly head in the 'home' organ and that was fine, as long as we kept it confined to a 500lb wooden console that could only be moved to a public venue by a moving company. If 'Uncle Henry's' neighbors could tolerate it and the family was willing to grit their teeth and bear it at family gatherings, so be it. But then they went and downsized the darn things, invented Rock-n-Roller carts, added mic inputs with vocal processors, and voila', the OMB was re-invented and became the keyboard equivalent of the three-chord teenage Rock guitar player. The difference is, SOME of the guitar players learned a few more chords; most of the arranger players didn't.

So, do I hate Arranger KB's? Absolutely not. They're fun and I own 3 of them. Do I think they are legitimate musical instruments (in the classical sense of the word), NO. Should they be banned from use in professional venues? From an economic (and personal liberty) point of view, NO; from a 'betterment of society' point of view, YES.

Let's face it, what drives the sale of Arranger keyboards and why are they sold mainly to old men who, after 50 years of practice, still can't play even one song on a piano at a professional level? Why do the truly creative (read 'young') and talented musicians today avoid them like the plague? Why is it that music store clerks don't know anything about them and 'big box' stores refuse to carry them for display? We have to face the fact that Arranger players are a very small minority; a VERY defensive one, but still a very small minority. Think about what we ask for in new instruments; better vocal processors, built-in MP3 and SMF players, lyric displays, chord sequencers, song-specific styles, and the list goes on.....anything that makes it easier for us to NOT PLAY.

We ridicule Jazz because it's difficult to play and demands more of the listener. We've gotten to prefer McDonalds to a fine restaurant. My grandkids LOVE these microwavable 'Mac-n-cheese' cups where you add some water, pour in some kind of powdered artificial 'cheese' mix, and stir, but they won't touch a single bite out of a great mac and cheese casserole prepared from scratch with fresh ingredients and baked lovingly in a real oven. I have to quickly remember that they're my own grandchildren to keep from strangling them .

HOWEVER, this is still a (relatively) free country, so if triggering someone else's STYLES on an arranger kb is your idea of how good music is created, so be it.

Being a 'tech geek', I still enjoy playing around with my arrangers, but less and less these days. Playing and rehearsing on a frequent basis keeps me aware of the huge differences between playing arranger kb and playing live with musicians. A place for each, I suppose, but definitely not the same. Will I buy another arranger in the future? Possibly. But not for the sake of providing inspiration; I get inspired by listening to the 'old masters' playing great music.

chas

i did not know that being a minority accounted for anything. I am a minority in so many ways other than as an arranger playing musician but its just water off a ducks back for me. i will keep on making good music regardless.

I appreciate everything that Chas has said in terms of how he sees arrangers in terms of the classic view of music making but as always , the caricature of a talentless old man gets pulled out to illustrate a point all the time . Why always pull out lowest form or example of musicianship to illustrate the use of aranger keyboards ? Thats just so tunnel visoned. i can gaurantee you that the majority of keyboards that have been sold in the world ,whether aranger or otherwise are played by people with little more than a basic understanding a level of chords and melody and less than that in skill level.

And for most thats exactly where they stay.

In fact i would bet that for almost any instrumnet of any category ,you will find that most owners progress little further than the most basic understanding of simple chords and melodies . I would go further and say that most pianos (at least in the UK ) that are privately owned serve more purpose as a side table than as a musical instrument !

so just how would society be better if there were less arranger keyboards in the world ? Does anyone believe that if we got rid of arrangers there would be an increase of keyboard/piano players or guitar players or other forms of musician ? almost certainly there would in fact be less musicians in the world however you wish to grade them . that to me would be a terrible terrible thing.

Chas is right that TOPL Arrangers are bought by and large by old wealthy men but this is because they can afford them !! However the budget instruments are almost certainly purchased by parents for their children and grand childremn who cant afford or dont have the space for a full sized weighted keys piano. I teach keyboard and i know that most children graduate to piano from affordable arranger keyboards.All the childrens schools that i have ever been to that teach music at all , start on a keyboard , typically arranger style .

If these were not available with their easy play functions there would in fact be less musicians that progress to a full piano in the world.

What i see time and time again is the focus on the easy play functions and the complete ommission of the sophisticated music tool that most TOTL arrangers have become. The caricature that keeps being wheeled out as an example of an arranger player (even if accurate) does not define the legitimate musical tool that an arranger is.

seeing the musician ship of someone like Marco Parisi, Peter Baartmans, Arnauld Delauney , Martin Harris just illustrates the point that it is the musician that defines the musical instrument and validates it as a legitimate music making tool and not the instrumnet itself.

Ha! Great post, Chas.

I distinctly remembering one of the more curmudgeonly of the older bunch (meaning around my age of 64) I jam with, referring to the arranger keyboard as the "blow-up doll" or "inflatable Love Companion" of the keyboard world.

Of course, he was also of the opinion that any amp that wasn't a vintage Fender Twin, a guitar that didn't have Stratocaster on the headstock, or an organ without the name HAMMOND between the upper and lower decks, should be relegated to pawn shops and city dumps.

I must say, however, that I really enjoy using my arranger (a Tyros4), and although I live alone at present, I also haven't found the need for "inflatable toys", unless you want to count the Yellow Rubber Ducky tucked away on the rim of my bathtub...you know, the one that Ernie, of Bert and Ernie (Sesame Street fame) always sings about "Rubber Ducky, you're the one...you make bath time so much fun".

Luckily for me, I have managed to remain in with a group of semi-retired/retired musicians that like to jam a few times a month and, except for Mr. Curmudgeon above, are quite happy (and perhaps a tad more open-minded) to play along with the auto accompaniments as long as it doesn't become a habit and the chord progressions aren't insulting.

I also play a really well kept B-3/Leslie 122, which my Tyros4 usually sits on top of...I often use the latter for Rhodes and other sounds.

I still regard my Tyros4 as a "tool". I feel, like any other electronic instrument or keyboard, it really depends on the skill and creativity of the player to make the most of it.

For my use, an arranger is both a "live" performance, and a recording instrument (most arrangers are basically self contained studios).

You can use the arranger as an educational tool, giving yourself access to the inner workings of a multitude of styles and genres, which will certainly increase your value and longevity as a working musician.

In music, especially nowadays, the more versatile you are, the more you work and a good professional arranger keyboard can keep you in the game.

For composers who have to produce music quickly in a given style that they may not be familiar with, an arranger can be the difference between making the deadline or losing the gig, and, actually, in most cases, people who hire composers don't care how you come up with the music, as long as you do.

Because of this, arrangers are showing up in the studios where their tracks are directly recorded from the arranger and put on CD for release. Of course, that makes sense, since the styles and performances are created and performed by world-class musicians.

Plus, you can edit styles to further personalize your music.

So, if you will, I can see both sides of the situation, but, for now, the advantages of having and using an arranger far outweigh those from not having it.

Again, great post, Chas...very thought provoking.

Ian

Good posts guys. Chas is just a rich old man too, but makes some good points.
Spalding kept me from writing exactly what I was thinking!
One thought though (of course), it's easy to assume that arranger players started as piano players and are using it for a substitute. That's not true in many cases. I started as a trumpet player, found there was not much market for those, even though I was really good (he says modestly). So I got a bass and started playing for parties after about a week. Learned enough guitar to know I wasn't ever going to be James Burton, bought an organ because my band back home needed an organ player.
Started doing singles because they paid more. Graduated through several organs as the auto-accomp. got better and better. Along about here I quit my "real" job.
THEN I discovered there was a world outside of organs, dollies, leslies and big vans to haul them in. Arrangers were invented.
Thank you Lord, for that, because I haven't had to work hard since!
To make the point, I'm an ARRANGER player, not a piano player. I don't like piano keys, I don't play left-hand arpeggios, I'm lousy at the sustain pedal. But I can sit down and entertain an audience for four hours, several nights a week, and never play the same song twice!
Yes the arranger does the background, but if you play with a band, the band does the background. Without me telling it what to do, the arranger just sets there. If you want it to do something great, you must tell it the right chords, put in the right riffs, put in variations, breaks, fill-ins for variety, play the right rides--that's where the PLAYING comes in.
Also, it doesn't bother me if another old man sits down and plays three-chord songs with one finger. He can't get my job, but he can sure have fun "playing".
Also, I've heard bad singers trying to use pitch correction, and they still sounded bad. Not saying you can't do it in a high-end studio or even with the right computer program, but I've never heard it done on the bandstand.
I TOLD you I didn't have much to add.

Ah Chas, my diligent "standard bearer". And Ian, my man! A great, well thought out analysis of what's going on in the on-going debate about the status of popular music, instruments,, venues, etc.

You both are "right", in my view.

My thing now is, use arrangers as convenient, money generating tools, but, don't use them as crutches to avoid learning how to play. In other words, don't end up looking like a "tool" LOL!.

I'm willing to pay other players out of my share to get to a better place, performance-wise. But, I'm lucky enough to have a little left for myself, and am NOT an ENTERTAINER, so I need the help (even though 2/3 of my work is as a single).

The thing is, PLAY. Play as well as you can, as often as you can.

Set your standards and try like hell to meet them.

And have fun in the process.

Along the way, we may all be lucky enough to have folks like Chas, Ian and our "wounded warrior, Don" as our close friends.

And that's GREAT!


Russ

P.S. I'll be going to Australia this year, with only two instruments: a jazz guitar, and, you guessed an (UGH) arranger. After I get home and cash that check, I'll feel a lot better about the process LOL!

Be well, all!

Spalding, guys like Marco Parisi can play the heck out of anything with keys. The Arranger doesn't make him sound good, he makes the Arranger sound good.....there's a difference. You continue to trot out how an arranger is this amazing tool, and you're right....it CAN be. But what we're talking about here is not the instrument itself but the way it is used by some to delude people, including sometimes themselves, into thinking they are better musicians than they really are. Every guy you named is a top flight musician and would be still, even if there were no such thing as an arranger keyboard. That's why they were hired in the first place. But they are not your typical arranger players or arranger buyers.

It bothers me not the least to see someone like Russ or Rory play an arranger kb. That's because when I want to see how a talented, well-seasoned, tasteful jazz guitarist tackles ballad accompaniment, I pull out Russ' video of 'What are you doing the rest of my life' (which I listen to at least a couple times a month) or a Country-leaning musician like Rory accompanying a jazz vocalist on acoustic piano. What that means is that these guys are NOT using an arranger as a crutch for not being able to play at a 'pro' level.

There is absolutely no reason not to enjoy the pleasures that a $5000.00 self-playing instrument can bring, but I always get the feeling of a prostitute telling you how 'good' you are and how much she loves you. With the constant chorus of 'attaboys' we get on this board, no matter how amateurish the performance, it's no wonder we love our arrangers so much. Where else in the world is there where we can do no wrong. Let's face it boys, this is 'warm fuzzy' heaven. Hey, who needs reality when the alternative is so, so sweet. Anyhoo, let me get back to my studio and crank up my trusty Tyros 2 (hasn't been turned on in about a year). I want to see how 'Take Five' sounds as a cha-cha. I'm gonna do it in one take, too.



chas

I am out of town, but cannot WAIT to call my wife and ask her when my "self-playing" keyboard turned itself on, and I can find out what it "self-played" ...

I think I can understand chas' apparent resentment towards AK players (not to put words in his mouth because he certainly can speak for himself - but that's the feeling I get), because here are a lot of us - some with little formal music education - out playing, entertaining people and making some money, while a lot of really talented jazz players are playing for themselves, or for no one at all... and SERIOUSLY, I thought about this last night when I went into this 'Louisiana Style' restaurant next to the hotel and here was this 17 piece band playing some of the BEST big band jazz and funk you would want to hear. ... during a break I spoke with the PIANO player and found out they all do this as 'rehearsal night' ... they do not get paid, but get dinner and a few beers ... I really thought it was a shame ...

Another thought I have that some people might not quite understand, is that when we compliment someone's performance it is within the context of what it is ... we are not measuring it against the best musical performances in history ...
Case in point: I played a gig a couple of weeks ago where people were listening to me for upwards of three hours - playing bossa to Buffett, old time RnR, Great American Standards etc., etc. ... when I finished, I received countless compliments including "you are a very talented individual" and some even asked if I had CDs they could buy ... when I went home, I didn't think "boy that performance was worth a Grammy, or should have been a concert in front of tens of thousands of people", but I used my God given talent to the best level that I could and I was proud of what I had done ...

If someone thinks I am wrong for feeling that way, that's on them ...

But, MAN, I wish I had the talent to play with those guys - and gals - last night ...

And I can't wait to hear "Take Five Cha Cha Cha" ...

I remember why I don't hang out at Jazz or Piano player forums, they wouldn't like what I do!
And I know all six jazz songs!

I can play piano and organ too (including pedals) but prefer an AK. I learn SO MUCH from playing with/between the style elements and making the song my very own. There is such a thing as listening and learning, but if you have a closed mind, well......... As an educational tool, AKs have incredible resources. As a money maker, ditto.

I look forward to that cha cha also In fact, the 3x has a hellavu style. Maybe I'll throw my version out!

Uh Zuki, that was a joke. 'take five/one take', get it? Seems like Russ was the only one that did (I heard from him a bit ago). But it's okay. We all start to lose some of our cognitive processes (along with our sense of humor) as we age.

chas

Uh, Chas, surprised that you would include yourself in your last sentence.

"Spalding, guys like Marco Parisi can play the heck out of anything with keys. The Arranger doesn't make him sound good, he makes the Arranger sound good.....there's a difference. You continue to trot out how an arranger is this amazing tool, and you're right....it CAN be. But what we're talking about here is not the instrument itself but the way it is used by some to delude people, including sometimes themselves, into thinking they are better musicians than they really are. Every guy you named is a top flight musician and would be still, even if there were no such thing as an arranger keyboard. That's why they were hired in the first place."

Chas it is only you that believes people are deluding others or themselves about their musical abilities . I know great performances when I have heard it and so do you . None of us here claim to be musical geniuses on the level of marco parisi or the others . And if you went on the korg forum or motifator forum or roland forum you would find a similar bunch of musicians encouraging less than record label performances because we are all striving to get better and that's what decent people do .

But you have already nailed the issue in your post . Talent is what makes the instrument sound good . The instrument by itself won't sound good unless all you do is trigger the impressive intro and then immediately press the ending button and that gets old real quick .It's the stuff you play in between that makes the instrument sound good and it's the talent you bring to the table that makes the performance stand out . Same as any instrument . Why do you always choose to define the musical worth of an arranger by the worst examples of people playing it ? In no other context have I ever heard a musical instruments status or value defined solely by the abilities or lack thereof by the worst player of that instrument .

That simply makes no earthly sense !

I assumed everybody got it Chas!
I sent to see Dave B when I was in college in the early 60's. I think Take Five was a moderate hit at the time. The arena was packed but I don't think there were too many who really appreciated what was going on, and when the response wasn't up to par, the guys in the group seemed to lose interest too. I still remember a song where they each took extended solos though. I was in awe!

Hi all,

Everywhere we perform, I announce Monica as our singer & myself as our button pusher. That says it all & I no longer feel guilty about anything.

I any case, the art of pushing the correct button at the correct time is an skill by itself. I do not feel humiliated in the least!

Cheers all,

Henni

Henni, you're absolutely correct. I resisted becoming a disc jockey (in addition to playing live) for years because I thought it would be downgrading myself to an "entry level" position in the entertainment industry. I soon learned the same..."the art of pushing the correct button at the correct time is a skill by itself." And, same here...."I do not feel humiliated in the least!"

Mark

Chas....I give you credit for "going against the tide" and being one of the few to comment on that. And you couldn't have said it any better than you did....brilliant and candid.

I haven't followed my own post here that close, but reading some of the responses tonight to what you wrote is prompting me to make my own comments. I don't know the general mood of this thread, but I thought it was a perfect time to say the same thing and go "against the tide" myself.

There have been many fine performances presented here, but also some NOT so fine! And it was more than obvious! Yet it's the same old scripted accolades, not to mention the "clapping hands" emoticon that always seems to appear.

I go to a Spiritual group meeting once a week. Last week the topic was "how do you make the world a better place?" Everyone began with the "you enlighten yourself to be the best person you could be" "you develop patience and understanding with people" "learn to respect others and where they're coming from" etc

My response was quite different and shocking: "You make the world a better place by "telling people off....call a spade a spade....tell it like it is, and not tell people what they like to hear." Another way of saying: Let the world make ITSELF a better place by making people "aware" of their (obvious) shortcomings and negatives and where they can improve themselves!

Let's bring it back to this group. How does a musician improve (assuming he wants to) if every time he posts something, he gets the familiar "clapping hands" icon? And even those who want to critique, do so "gently."

I'm sure I said this before, but I'll say it again anyway. When I play for a listener, I'd prefer that he tell it like it is. I don't need to hear positive remarks. I want to hear what I'm doing wrong and how can I improve myself? I'd rather be a masochist and take in any comments that could help me to be the best I can be rather than look at the world (my performances) through rose-colored glasses, and remain..........musically stagnant!

As Vaughan Monroe said/sang: "There I've Said It Again!"

Mark

You are just tooooo naughty Ian ha ha !

With the constant chorus of 'attaboys' we get on this board, no matter how amateurish the performance, it's no wonder we love our arrangers so much. Where else in the world is there where we can do no wrong. Let's face it boys, this is 'warm fuzzy' heaven.

Chas, I cannot agree with you on this aspect. When I post something on the zone I hope for comments that can help me improve my performance of that song. If you look at many of the my previous song post, there's not a chorus of attaboys, but instead helpful tips from a number of long-time entertainers that I've been able to utilize and put into effect in those songs.

Gary

Really,,,,,,, All the over 50's here,, can't play a tune on the piano after 50 years of practice,,,,, Mmmm,,, Man,,, Chas,, Think about what you said,,,,,Arrangers playing by themselves,,,, who's playing the chords??? After reading your post, seem to me you have a very narrow mind of arranger musicians or musicians in general. Sorry ,, but,,, don't be so general,,,,,,,, you can't put anyone who uses an arranger as a misguided fool ... People who post their tunes here ,,, are not looking for Emmy Nominations,, Just to share some music with someone else in some other part of the world,,, and , of course get some constructive criticism and whatever. Your comments indicate that you are above the rest,,, so,,, What have you got to say for your self?????? Oh,,,yeah I like ARRANGERS to,,

Ian

I am self appointed headmaster chas and don't you forget it.

Chas- Isn't this am arranger keyboard forum ???????? What do you expect so see and hear??? Piano concertos?? I don't remember filling out an application as to my specific playing ability and being accepted or rejected on that premise, or auditioning for the right to belong here.. You want to set the bar for yourself fine- but you have no business doing it for others. Perhaps you could start a non arranger keyboard forum somewhere else and remove yourself from here- then you wouldn't be so upset at what you see. This kink of judgmental stuff pisses me off. This is not "Keyboard Idol". Just when I was getting back to posting after other narcissistic guys were spouting the same stuff not so long ago. You can have it back.

sparky ... with Nigel's comment, and the 'mysterious disappearance' of chas' more recent post, I may be wrong, but I have a feeling you won't have to be concerned about him 'judging' anyone's musical contributions for a while, or telling us how we use 'self-playing' keyboards ...
I think it's too bad because he would often have some insight on things from a different perspective ...
Anyway, we make our bed ... and don't be afraid about posting any of your work ... we would love to hear it ...

Right now I'm working on converting 100's of song lyric docs to plain text to load into the pa600. Recording projects have to wait though I have some from the full band. Only recorded with an ikey stereo recorder at the time so individual parts not well balanced. I will post something when it gets nearer the top of my priority list. When are you coming back to NJ?

Sparky, there's an easy way to do those conversions all at once. If you remember those old DOS commands you can batch convert them.

Gary

Tony, I don't think Nigel has banned Chas, but instead gave him a warning/reprimand of sorts.

I agree that Chas has some great insights and a different perspective, and I respect his point of view.

This place is however, primarily an "arranger" forum and should be viewed as such, although there is certainly nothing wrong with "off topic" posts.

Personally, I have attempted to adopt a "live and let live" policy, and try to stay off people's toes while still offering my own views on whatever arranger topic is on the go.

Ian

PS...I am really pleased to see more members sharing their music.

I agree totally, Ian ...

Unfortunately, no dates set right now, but I will let you know where and when ... hmmm ... sounds like there is a song in there ...

Ian, I LIKE the new way you're approaching things.

I try to do the same.

Here's a question: In my opinion, there have been a few posts here recently that were plain AWFUL!

What's the right thing to do, in light of the request by the poster to comment?

I start off by thinking that if this person doesn't know that he/she can't play or sing, they should keep it to themselves.

Then, I think, "hey, this is a good guy (or girl). Maybe I should just say nothing".

That's what I usually do, but a few of the recent posts were really sad!

What do you think?


Russ

PS: If you really new Chas, you'd understand that he's not
afraid to discuss a controversial subject. He's also not trying to hurt anyone's feelings.

And, in my opinion, he's right more often than he's wrong.

SZ is peaceful and enjoyable to come to lately with everyone posting songs talking shop etc, ...it's not a question of good or bad its all about sharing musicianship, constructive criticism,
& learning from each other.Russ why not post a few tunes get in the mix, that's what it's all about. "Keeping it to yourself" doesn't help anyone IMO. we're all here to have fun and enjoy arranger KB's..

Donny, I don't have fun listening to bad music. I'm in the studio over 40 hours a week recording film scores, tracks for live performances, etc. Sadly, I haven't recorded anything for just fun in many years. I'm too far behind on promised projects. My clients are all Fortune 200 Companies.

And, other than really rough score concepts, I never record with an arranger.

I have posted 2 spec film score projects and one solo guitar effort here. None actually belonged here, since arrangers weren't used. They do, however, give an indication of my involvement and level of music production.

I kind of wish I had the time to just play for fun.

Sadly, everything is deadline work, and I'm also writing scripts, editing and even doing V/O's...all under tight deadlines...many times, keeping at it for 30 plus hours, with just bathroom breaks.

Anything I post might interest a few, but would not show arranger work. And, the work is so specific to what's going on in the film(s) that is sometimes does not stand alone as music very well.

I just struggle with bad work, and don't know if just letting it stand does anybody any good.


Russ

Russ, I usually respond in a general way if the tune is missing some chords or could be polished up a bit.

If I feel the person posting is really interested in helpful criticism or suggestions on how the music can be made better, I most always Private Message them first and give them a heads up on what I might be posting in regards to their tune.

I ask is it okay for me to post what I've planned on posting.

If it is, then I go ahead and post in the forum...if it isn't, I'll more than likely not post anything.

Not everyone handles criticism well, no matter how constructive or diplomatically worded, and that goes for pros and amateurs alike.

If it is something minor, like a volume/balance issue (voice or lead sound too loud or too soft), I will usually go ahead and post without the above procedure.

For some players here on SZ, this may be their first time posting music on a public forum, so I try not to post in such a way that may discourage them from even trying again and perhaps take away any opportunity for them to get more comfortable with future suggestions and/or criticisms.

If the poster is a seasoned performer or someone who has been playing a long time, I usually PM them first.

I was a Yamaha teacher for quite a few years, and, I learned how poorly worded criticism, especially in front of others (especially their peers), can cause far more harm than good.

Criticism is like castor oil...easy to give, but hard to take, so I feel I best deliver it in the right amount, at the right time, and perhaps with a bit of sweetener to take off the bad taste.

On the other hand, I have a friend who can take several castor oil capsules and chew them up before swallowing.

People like that are rare, probably as rare as those who can handle point-blank criticism.

How am I doing so far?

Ian

Russ ... allowing a poor performance to go with no criticism may not be the right thing to do, but I don't think any of us here wants to be the one to say or HEAR "That was not good" ... hopefully we can give/take some constructive criticism without it being too harsh, yet helpful ...

As far as YOUR music is concerned, I would LOVE it if at one of your gigs with your son and grandson you could just set up a digital recorder and turn it on while you are performing ...

yea Russ that seems easy enough,.... would love to hear it also or one of the b3 gigs you do.....just sayin'

I'll try, Tony. My grandson is really shy about recording, now, because he thinks he hasn't learned all the material perfectly. And, while I think he's coming along, when I have a really high profile job, I bring in a fellow from Cincinnati. I actually have lots of jobs recorded of the "Lay's", but little guy made me promise not to post it anywhere.

I do have a 1/2 hour of just me on a grand piano, recorded at a benefit on an old Panasonic digital grand, just into a Zoom H2. It was last September. My son taped it without me knowing.

I'll try to find that, although, again, it's not arranger work. I don't have anything worth sharing recorded on arranger.

Let me restate my conundrum: I don't have a problem with anyone who posts in good faith, just to share.

I have a real problem with bad postings where it's really obvious that the person thinks he/she is much better than he/she is, and brags about it.

I'm talking about the folks who would never dare to even think of getting on a bandstand with someone who obviously had their act together.

In the real world, they, would be laughed off the stage in a heartbeat.

It's rough out there in the real world.

Russ

R.

Russ ... chas has made it quite evident over the years that he is not afraid of controversy, and yes, many times he is right in what he says ... and while he may not be 'trying' to hurt anyone's feelings, I think that one more than one occasion he has talked down about arranger players to the point of being insulting ...
As I said in my response to his post, I am not looking to win any awards, and I know my limitations as a musician, but I am proud of what I do and how I entertain the audiences I play for, and while they may not be as astute and critical as some jazz aficionados, they are not all NH patients who aren't aware of what's going on ...
And my kb isn't "self-playing" ... it accompanies me as I play ...
And I think it is unfortunate if someone puts him/herself in a position to be banned from this forum ...
Hopefully he has not been and will be posting soon ...

Russ, if I posted something on this, or any other forum, that sounded like crap, I would want to know it. However, I would also want to know, from professionals, such as a number of folks here, how to improve it. I want to know what I did right and what I did wrong, and what steps to take in order to bring about perfection to that submission, or bring it as close to perfection as I am capable of doing. IMO, this is a very important aspect of this type of forum.

That said, I've heard some really bad song posted, here and elsewhere. In each and every instance, where I have made a comment, it has been a constructive comment that I feel would be beneficial to that individual. I'm not going to tell someone that has taken the time and trouble to post a song that that song sounds like crap. Instead, I'm going to provide information that will assist that person in achieving his or her goal with that particular song, different style, different balance ratio, tempo, etc..., things I sincerely believe will be helpful. And, when I came to this forum many years ago, that's why I came - to get help from pros such as yourself, Uncle Dave, Donny, Fran, DomM, Eddie Shoemaker, and many others that I have also taken the time to meet personally. Now, if I had known you prior to the job I did in Lexington several years ago, I would have made it a point to meet with you in person as well.

During the past few weeks, the forum has really taken made a comeback, IMO. It has returned to a member friendly organization of individuals who willingly share not only their songs, but additionally other helpful information that will help the membership be more successful in the business aspects of music as well as improving their playing skills. And, we seem to be having more fun in that quest for knowledge.

Cheers,

Gary

Russ ... I would never ask a grandfather to betray a trust, so ONLY if your grandson agrees ...
Would love to hear your piano work or as Donny suggested, your B3 work ...
This may be primarily an arranger forum, but I don't think anyone is going to complain if you post music that wasn't played on an arranger ...

And as for letting your thoughts about a performance be known, as Ian said, there is always the PM method ...

Probably should have kept my mouth shut. All involved are friends...even the ones who posted the material I was referring to.

I'm probably way to serious about music...almost to the point where it's not always fun.

I'd really have to think hard about posting an extemporaneous live performance, in light of the way I finesse my work in the studio.

I'd find too much wrong wit it, and if I'm not proud of something I'm not going to make anyone else listen to it.


But, that's just me!


Russ

C'mon, Russ ... lighten up ! ... ... you're playing for family here, man ...

Bottom line guys, is that this is a General Arranger Keyboard Forum, which appears to mean that members here use arranger keyboards to accomplish their goals in music. That can be from playing all instrumentals, playing and singing over a midi file or a style, but the primary operative words are ARRANGER KEYBOARD.

Nothing wrong with off topic threads, but I was always under the impression that the main reason we were banded here is because the instruments we have chosen to use to make and/produce our music are "Arrangers".

So, at least in my case, I prefer to listen to music played on the instrument this forum is named after...there are lots of "Vocalist" forums, and "Piano" forums...even some Hammond B-3 sites.

By all means, post whatever you think is relevant, including off topic material, but, the more arranger generated (and related) material we post, the more we learn about this very special "Swiss Army Knife" of keyboard instruments.

What I find hard to understand, is that if a person doesn't enjoy using an arranger, feels it's somehow beneath them to be caught or heard playing one, and fails to see the value and the wonder many of us here do see in this instrument, what would such a person find valuable or interesting about an arranger forum?

Ian

It clearly makes no sense Ian

I think if people want to post their music good or bad let them . If you don't like their music just skip the post . There is no compulsion for anyone comment on the musical contribution being offered and if you can't say something that can help then don't say anything at all .

The synthzone is becoming a much less toxic place and as far as I am concerned the necessary culling that has taken place over the last few weeks was well overdue . Hopefully now we can get back on track and this forum can be about what it says on the label .

I totally agree, if someone can't offer constructive advice then it is better not to comment at all. I don't want to see us return to the situation where everyone becomes afraid of posting their musical performances.

My personal opinion:

The arranger keyboard was always designed by manufactures as primarily an instrument for the home user; (There basically all the easy play features of an organ in one box with more sounds added) therefore to try and prove otherwise is quite fruitless.

The only people who look down on arrangers are other musicians, which as they account for less than 1% of an audience you might as well just ignore them and concentrate on the rest of your audience who couldn’t care less what instrument you are playing.

Constructive criticism of a performance is the best feedback any musician can have (You don’t have to be able to play an instrument to provide constructive criticism) and can only make the performer improve further.

Calling a performance c***, or praising a poor performance serves no useful purpose as it will either cause the individual to give up, or make them think they is better than they are, which will always be counterproductive.

As mentioned above the audience couldn’t care less what instrument you are playing they are just there for the music, so just produce your best and enjoy yourself, that way everybody goes home happy.


One of the biggest annoyances for me when listening to arranger play, are the same into/endings, style variations etc. being used by a lot of arranger players, as when I go out to listen to music I want to hear the performer not the machine, (The machine should be secondary to the performer, not the other way round) thus the use of all singing all dancing styles are a big turn off for me, however keep the backing instruments to a minimum (Or create your own personal Midi backing) and really play your heart out using all the limbs available to you is what for me makes a great performance. (One of the biggest performance increases any arranger player can do is to add a set of bass pedals and expression pedal, then use them to their full potential, as it really adds life to the performance as well as looking great)

Remember a good performer is recognisable by their style of playing, not the instrument they are playing.

Some will agree and some will disagree with the above, which is why I say it is purely my personal opinion.

Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

Hi Guy's

I have been reading this post with great interest, as one who posts quite often and according to some contributors to this post probably more than I should, I would like to add in my halfpenny worth.

I started my musical career on guitar as many of us did in the 50's and 60's and progressing from 3 chords I played guitar as a semi-pro for many years never really achieving the level I would have liked. I then drifted into playing bass eventually converting to fretless bass as part of a jazz quartet which lasted approx. 25 years. I always considered myself relatively proficient on bass but "always looked enviously at the pianist".

Before my spell on bass I was part of a quite successful semi-pro trio consisting of guitar, bass, drums and three part harmony. I was the low harmony but always was always "envious of the lead singer". Forgot to mention I also got involved for a time with a "Country Band" on bass and again singing the low harmony.

Along came my first arranger, now disappearing into my quiet space, I could try to play the keys and sing to my hearts content without offending anyone. After a while I started to play and sing with a mate on guitar mainly Pop and Country, and then wait for it, someone heard us practicing and ask us to play for them, whoopee, a chance to perform on the arranger.

This lasted about 2 years but sadly ended about 18 months ago, ahh well back to the studio. I then started to become more serious about recording, I still do a few live gigs but only by myself with the G70 and always for charity.

Somewhere along the way I discovered SZ, here was somewhere to post my efforts and see what other folks thought about my music, but it took a long time to pluck up the courage to post my first attempt. Since then I feel strongly that I have benefited from the comments I have received and I don't mean the back slapping.

I would never class myself as competent either as a vocalist or a musician on any instrument but I love my music and would be completely lost without it.

I have, over the last few years derived a great amount of pleasure from my involvement on this forum and would like to think I have gained a few good friends, albeit long distance ones (Thank God for the Internet).

To any others lurking in the shadows wondering whether or not to post their music I would say this, be-damned to the so called professionals who criticize but don't post, ask for constructive criticism and the descent chap's on here will respond, you may not always like what they say (Someone even had the nerve to suggest that I took some singing lessons, the cheek of it ) but most have been around for ever and you will find their opinions helpful.

If you wish to improve, and I think most of us would love to, the regular guy's on this forum can and will help, don't be put off by a few nasty comments, even some who are no longer with us certainly gave some good advice at times, just give it a try. I look back at some of my old and not so old recordings and I fairly cringe.I am, though some folks may not believe it, constantly trying new things always with the object of improving my performance.

I am now a complete amateur in the sense that I no longer get paid to perform but that doesn't stop me trying to achieve as near a profession performance as I can.

If you want to know if your performance sounds professional who better to ask than a bunch of, in the main, kindly experienced (OLD) professionals.

All the very best

Col

Well said, guys...I agree wholeheartedly.

I like the way the forum is going, especially the more relaxed feeling that keeps getting better.

Nigel, I don't envy your job as moderator, because I know you are softhearted and some of the decisions you have been forced to make weren't easy.

Thanks again for providing this great forum for us "renegades" of the keyboard world...ha ha!

Ian

Wow...it looks like I opened a Pandora's box here!

I don’t have the time to post much anymore, but I couldn’t stand by here without commenting once again.

Interesting, controversial, unconventional, educational, informative, rebellious, confrontational, provocative, stimulating, challenging, etc are some of the words I would use to describe Chas’s postings in this thread. I definitely would not throw in the words pompous, demeaning, insulting, etc.

Chas was making a point that I feel a few of you missed, particularly DMAC. I went back and read his comments here word by word 2x, and found nothing that he wrote was out of line. What WAS out of line was misinterpretation of what he was actually saying by some of the readers. And definitely a lack of appreciation for his candidness and “out of the box” thinking. The kind of thinking that great inventors, great scientists, great writers, great artists and great MUSICIANS have used to advance civilization and society over the years to greater levels.

As I see it, he was addressing the lack of desire of players to improve themselves and the delusional self-image of those who choose to stay in Arranger Keyboard Heaven. He didn’t condemn anyone for it. He didn’t chastise anyone. He simply brought it to the attention of those who refuse to face reality. That there are arranger players who fool themselves into thinking they are the best thing since sliced bread and refuse to recognize, for one thing, that, for lack of better words they are ½ a musician. And that by staying in “arranger land” they don’t have to come out of that mode and put in the effort a pianist does in becoming a more complete musician.

Now I’m not talking about the real pro’s who play professional piano but use arrangers by choice. And I’m not talking about those who prefer an arranger for the full orchestra/band sound it puts out over a piano.

I’m meaning arranger players who make their “full productions” by depending on auto-playing to do most of the background work, while they....SING. Have not any of you noticed there are very few these days who can play a whole song as an instrumentalist only? In fact, there are very few who can even play 16 bars of melody in between their vocals. Even fewer who remember to use their “break” option. It’s....let the machine just run by itself while I sing to it!

I was listening to the organ part of Santana’s Oye Como Va in the supermarket the other day and the butcher and I both commented you’ll never hear playing like that again in those pre-arranger days. You’ll never hear talent like that again, because, as I’ve already said….the machines do it all for us now. No need any longer to study your craft. Just set the gimmicks and gadgets running, turn your video camera on yourself, and bingo!....you’re ready to go on Youtube for your 15 minutes of fame!


As for Nigel’s “elimination” of Chas’s rebuttal post to DMAC (I happened to catch it before it “disappeared”) I agree Nigel did the right thing. It was extremely disruptive to the somewhat even flow of the thread. But...while the anger WAS upsetting, to me it was understandable. Let’s face it, we’re musicians. We’re emotional people or we wouldn’t be playing music...”emotion” being one of the main requirements.

Now, I felt DMAC missed the actual message Chas was spelling out in his post and “disrespected” him and talked down to him. For the record, I consider Chas to be a very wise person (from his writings). So Chas did a “knee-jerk” reaction and wrote back what he did. Now, I feel he should have “cooled off” before writing back, and definitely he should have been more refined in his response, but I refer back to what I said previously: some people just ask to be told off! DMAC challenged Chas, spoke down to a much wiser person (in my opinion), and that was the result.


Russ wrote: “In my opinion, there have been a few posts here recently that were plain AWFUL! What's the right thing to do, in light of the request by the poster to comment?"

Mark is thinking....let the poster make decisions like that easier for us. When you post a song, you also post one of the following:

1) ALL comments are appreciated, both good or bad. I am sincerely looking to improve my playing
2) NO comments please, either good or bad. I’m too thin-skinned to take the chance on negative reviews.
3) I’m just looking to share what I’m doing...don’t care much about improving, so...no comments needed, and....thanks for listening.

There’s a saying in psychology and religious circles: Loathe the sin but love the sinner. Bringing that philosophy to groups like this, it means: What’s the big deal about thinking or saying something like: "that song you did was really awful,but that doesn’t mean you’re not a great person in my book. It just means....”that song you did was really awful!”

BTW....the best part of this whole thread was Ian’s response with the “minion” eating the popcorn. Now THAT'S what I call “out of the box” thinking! (Mark uses the "overused "hand clap!" Chas…..you have a long way to go to top that one!

Whewwww! I was full of energy when I started this post. Now I'm out of breath and am going to sleep for the next 7 days....maybe even a week!

Mark

I think the damage has been done,.....and many will go back in their shells after reading all this and never post music because of it. I hope not as I personally enjoy listening to ALL work posted. lets leave the egos at the door and enjoy the magic of playing music on an arranger KB.

Mark, we must have posted about the same time.

I would like to clear up a few things that may be misrepresented in some of the previous posts. For instance:
1. I defy anyone to find a single post of mine that negatively criticized an individual performance or said someone's performance "sounded like crap". Go back as far as you like. Donny is the reighning king of 'dumpster diving', maybe he can find something.

2. I have posted positive comments on a number of performances, including those by Russ (video medley), Rory Hoffman (amazing musician), 124 (a very good and authentic version of Jamblaya), Beachbum (really like his voice), Donny (was pleasantly supprised by the quality of his voice and vocal style), one of our Latin members (can't remember his name) who did an absolutely beautiful guitar simulation on the tune 'Masquerade', The Wolf (his truly hilarious AND musical, presentations), Diki (for doing a very credible job on a very difficult jazz tune - Giant Steps, I believe), Randy the sax guy (a beautiful performance of Autum Leaves), and the guy who used to produce all those lovely soundscapes on the Tyros 4, and probably a few others who I can't immediately recall. In fact, it is performances like these, along with the opportunity to get to know and interact with, people like Russ and a few others with whom I share many other musical and non-musical interests, that I participate in this forum----which brings me to....

3. FOX NEWS - "This is an Arranger forum; if you don't like arrangers why are you here?

FACTS: Aside from the fact that I currently own 4 arrangers (and have owned 7 in all) and will probably buy another sometime in the future (just not for professional use - as is my choice), I would submit that this is more of (or at least as much of) a SINGER'S forum as it is an Arranger forum. I don't think that I'm exaggerating when I say that 90% of the performances posted FEATURE VOCALS with the accompaniment being (more often than not) a very bland, plain vanilla backing triggered by very basic chords........or a SMF. And while this is okay, it hardly shows off the capabilities of a very expensive and feature-laden instrument. Very few SZ performances would convince me to buy one brand of Arranger over another (but I might pick one SINGER over another ). Oh, and BTW, I guess an Arranger forum is the perfect place for 16 pages of posts on THE WEATHER.

4. FOX NEWS: 'I love how this place is so peaceful and welcoming now.' Translation - 'we no longer accept any dissenting opinions, especially if they come from certain people.'

FACTS: Some of our current 'peaceniks' have been some of the biggest agitators and rabble-rousers in the not-so-distant past. How soon we forget.

5. My posts in this thread were in support of the original poster's comments (which, oddly, no one seems to have a problem with). Does make one wonder if it might just be the messenger.

6. As to my 'reprimand', I responded to a PERSONAL attact by a finger-wagging member demanding 'what did I have to say for myself' as though he had some God-given authority over me. Being FAR removed from kindergarden and not having engaged in any PERSONAL attacks myself, I naturally resented this. I'm sorry that Nigel didn't see it that way, but then, that's his perogative. As far as feeling comfortable posting music here, that really is an individual thing and a matter of how you see yourself as a musician. Since I have never negatively commented on ANYONE'S performance, I don't see how you can blame ME for feeling uncomfortable posting. If you see a GENERAL negative comment and decide to apply it to yourself, well then I guess it fits into the "if the shoe fits....." category.

Feel free to point out anything in this post that you find offensive or untrue.

Peace,

chas

Ian

1) Looking at the OP, as I re-read it, Mark made no reference to arranger keyboards, but to the creation of today's and tomorrow's 'pop music' ...


2) quote: "...and voila', the OMB was re-invented and became the keyboard equivalent of the three-chord teenage Rock guitar player. The difference is, SOME of the guitar players learned a few more chords; most of the arranger players didn't."

quote:"There is absolutely no reason not to enjoy the pleasures that a $5000.00 self-playing instrument can bring, ..."

Perhaps I'm "thin-skinned" but to ME that is demeaning and insulting language ...
and I will repeat myself by saying my KB doesn't play a note that I do not initiate ... the chords may be BASIC, and possibly INCORRECT, but the notes don't play unless I play something ...

My car engine runs fine, but if I don't drive it, it doesn't go anywhere ...

But, enough of this ...


chas, I'm glad you weren't banned ...

Be well, live a happy life ...

IMHO better to be half a musician than no musician at all.

Get your priorities right gent's, I'm just bleeding glad to still be here and able to enjoy what I do, millions in this crappy world don't have that privilege.

Col

BTW ... I've never had a MacDonald's in my life ... and fortunately, my grandkids prefer the REAL stuff ...

... now White Castle is ANOTHER story ...

Tony, I humbly beg you to read Mark's LAST post in which he pretty much supports my position. While you're at it, PLEASE re-read MY last post. Doesn't that count for anything - the part where I've never criticized ANYONE's performance. Hey, I always thought you were 'my guy', a 'peacemaker', 'straight shooter', 'fair and balanced' (ok, that was a little over the top ). So I must say I'm a little surprised that you'd uh, take this position; even more surprised that you'd 'cherry-pick' a couple of phrases, mostly out of context, and ignore the gist of what I was saying. Sounds like that "self-playing" comment really got under your skin; don't know why it should. Anything with a built-in MP3 or WAV or SMF player certainly CAN be a "self-playing" instrument. My VP770 which I love to death, has this capability and can take my creaky voice and replace it with 4 or 5 pretty nice sounding voices. Fun, fun, fun, (2000,00 worth, in fact) but I still won't take it on a gig, why, because it would just sound weird with the type of music I do when playing out. That doesn't mean I hate it. In fact, as a non-singer, it's one of my favorite toys. It makes me sound much better than I actually do.

Hey, we're only talking about a piece of equipment here. To listen to the 'hate' in some of these posts, you'd think I was starting a petition to allow Obama to run for a third term (or join Synthzone). Mark made a post and asked for comments; I commented and he concurred with my comments; others didn't. That's called DISCOURSE or discussion. We need to chill out and not go nutso anytime someone says something that goes against the party line. If I've 'demeaned' anyone it was not intentional. As a third-rate hack musician, I'm not in a position to demean anyone. We make way too much over the little, inconsequential things in life. We'll live a lot longer if we just buy what we want, play what we want, like what we like, and pay less attention to what other people think. Getting stressed out is usually just a reflection of our own insecurities.

So Tony, stop cherry-picking my posts, let's get back to being friends, and put a Big Mac on your bucket list.

Peace,

chas

Thought I was dying a couple times this week. This stuff doesn't mean a thing.
Let's move on.

Good point, Don.

Ian

Yeah Don, that kind of experience does tend to make you put things in perspective. BTW, if we DO get a chance to hang out together, can be bring Russ along? We need someone to pick up the tab .

chas

Of course!

chas ... first, I've never NOT considered you a friend, even 'back in the day' when we had some more serious difference of opinions ...
But I just want to make a couple of points - friend to friend - and please read this knowing I do not have an 'argumentative attitude' as I am writing it ... just normal conversation ...

Mark's OP said nothing about arrangers ... you brought arrangers into the conversation, and in a negative way ...

I 'cherry picked' a couple of comments because someone, somewhere in this far too overly long discourse someone said something to the effect that you never said anything to insult anyone, and quite frankly, I WAS insulted by those remarks so I felt a need to point that out ... and while you say they were taken out of context, I find it hard to think that in context they were anything but far from a compliment to arranger players ...
And perhaps you don't understand why these comments got under my skin (hmmm, there could be a song there ) because you are NOT an arranger player ...
And also, perhaps, if I had YOUR talent (and don't give me that "third rate hack musician" stuff because I have you on my iPOD which proves otherwise ) and played a B3 I might feel about arrangers as you do ...

And yes, we'll live a lot longer if we just buy what we want, play what we want, like what we like, and pay less attention to what other people think, and let others do the same without criticizing them for it, which IMHO your comments were doing ... perhaps you didn't mean to, but from an arranger player's side of the fence it certainly seemed like you were ...

I never said you criticized anyone personally, because I've never seen you do that ...

And YES, life IS far too short for all this petty crap, and that becomes all too real when we are on a gurney in a hospital ER wondering 'What The *** ' is going on inside my chest ... unfortunately I been there too many times ... but just as unfortunate is the fact that when we get past it, we too often return to the minutiae of everyday life, and the petty becomes a big deal again ...

So, I have said my piece, will move on and if you allow me I will remain your friend, and CONTINUE to be "a 'peacemaker', 'straight shooter', 'fair and balanced' in all things MEANINGFUL in life ...

BUT, a Big Mac will NEVER be on my bucket list ...

I recently had a conversation with someone. I said to them "I enjoy conversation." Then I corrected myself and stated I enjoy "discussion" more than conversation. On the third go-around, I corrected myself again and said: "I take that all back, I enjoy "exploration" more than both "conversation" and "discussion."

Do you get how what I just said relates to this thread? There is very little "exploration" of thoughts and ideas that happens here or anywhere!

Martin Luther King had a "dream" and I had a dream too. My dream was that everyone, everywhere would learn to "discuss" at the very least and "explore" at the very best!

How many of you think the SynthZone (and just about every other group on the planet) would be more productive if "ego's" were checked at the door before you entered the room?

They want to legalize guns in the state I live in. God forbid, everyone's itching for a fight as it is, 24/7. Thank goodness, they don't have guns at their side!

For the record, I stand behind what Chas said 100%. And I, personally, don't feel he needs to apologize to anyone for expressing his views. Every member in here has the right to express himself, if it's done in a civil way, which is what I believe Nigel advocates.

If you don't want to "explore" an idea someone put forth, that's your decision. But don't knock the message and, certainly, don't knock the messenger. The more you do that the less innovative thinking will be introduced to the group and stagnation will rear it's ugly head. Does anyone really want to revert back to the "keyboard A" vs. "keyboard B" topics?

Mark

Mark ... getting back to your original post, I had the occasion to spend a couple of nights in Hartford CT this past week... next door to the hotel was this Louisiana style restaurant that features live music every night ... one night it was a 17 piece jazz/funk band ... there wasn't a player over the age of 45 yrs and I would say that at least 10 of them were under the age of 30 ...
The next night was 'blues jam' night, and while there were a number of 'older' players, there were still a lot of young - less than 30 yrs - players also ...
so there ARE still young people making real music out there, fortunately ... ...can't say what's going to happen in the 'pop' world, though ...

In the town next to ours, Kennesaw, GA, the law REQUIRES that every household has a gun and ammunition. I'm not kidding. Google 'Kennesaw gun law 1982'. As Don King is fond of saying, "Only in America". I say, "only in Georgia" . We also have 'Stand your Ground', along with the right to carry concealed weapons in churches, bars, and college campuses. Guess you can't be too careful (sarcasm intended).

chas

I'm on the road a lot in March. And, I need a break.

Probably see you in April.


Be well, all,


Russ

Russ ... be well my friend ... safe travels ...

Russ, if 'on the road' includes Atlanta, let me know.

chas

chas ... if Russ says he's going to Georgia, he probably means the COUNTRY ...

Russ if not recordings at least take pictures for us?

You always make me laugh chas How about u guys pick up the tab for Russ for a change? Russ sure deserves a free meal.

Russ if you ever make it to Southern California I am taking u out to dinner. You too chas ,Tony ,Don, Gary, Ian, Donny and Mark. In fact I will take any of the Synth Zone forum members out for dinner, it would be my pleasure. Just let me know if you are in the Los Angeles area and we can get together. It would be a blast to meet you face to face.

Nah, Russ has wayyyyyy too much money, and we're just trying to help him dispose of it .

Seriously, Russ is a terrific human being and does a lot of good stuff that most people don't even know about, including numerous charities, providing a lot of help to "the least of these" in his community, Habitat for Humanity (NOLA - Musicians Village), and major involvement in Nursing Home reform in his state. He's also loyal to a fault to his friends, an admirable quality indeed, and aside from his formidable talents as a musician, these are the qualities that makes him one of my heroes. Now if only I could 'rescue' him from the Republican party......oh well, nobody's perfect .

chas

Now comes the unicycling- more back-peddling than at the circus. I'll try again in a few months,..

I've missed most of this discussion (might be a good thing), but I wanted to say that I listen to all of the musical submissions I have time for.

I rarely offer criticism or advice, but I do leave a (usually) inane little comment just to show the artist that I took the time to listen to his or her work, and that I appreciate him or her sharing it. Not leaving some sort of comment is like sitting in an audience and refusing to clap (even politely), imo.

Take care,
Dan

Nothing new, Sparky...same old same old, but amusing to watch all the same.

Care for some popcorn?

sparky ... stay with us ... where else can you have so much fun ...
my wife got tired of watching tv soap operas ... I told here "log onto S-Z" ...

But I LOVE this place ... no, REALLY, I LOVE this place ...

One two cha cha cha!