Ah Chas, my diligent "standard bearer". And Ian, my man! A great, well thought out analysis of what's going on in the on-going debate about the status of popular music, instruments,, venues, etc.

You both are "right", in my view.

My thing now is, use arrangers as convenient, money generating tools, but, don't use them as crutches to avoid learning how to play. In other words, don't end up looking like a "tool" LOL!.

I'm willing to pay other players out of my share to get to a better place, performance-wise. But, I'm lucky enough to have a little left for myself, and am NOT an ENTERTAINER, so I need the help (even though 2/3 of my work is as a single).

The thing is, PLAY. Play as well as you can, as often as you can.

Set your standards and try like hell to meet them.

And have fun in the process.

Along the way, we may all be lucky enough to have folks like Chas, Ian and our "wounded warrior, Don" as our close friends.

And that's GREAT!


Russ

P.S. I'll be going to Australia this year, with only two instruments: a jazz guitar, and, you guessed an (UGH) arranger. After I get home and cash that check, I'll feel a lot better about the process LOL!

Be well, all!

Spalding, guys like Marco Parisi can play the heck out of anything with keys. The Arranger doesn't make him sound good, he makes the Arranger sound good.....there's a difference. You continue to trot out how an arranger is this amazing tool, and you're right....it CAN be. But what we're talking about here is not the instrument itself but the way it is used by some to delude people, including sometimes themselves, into thinking they are better musicians than they really are. Every guy you named is a top flight musician and would be still, even if there were no such thing as an arranger keyboard. That's why they were hired in the first place. But they are not your typical arranger players or arranger buyers.

It bothers me not the least to see someone like Russ or Rory play an arranger kb. That's because when I want to see how a talented, well-seasoned, tasteful jazz guitarist tackles ballad accompaniment, I pull out Russ' video of 'What are you doing the rest of my life' (which I listen to at least a couple times a month) or a Country-leaning musician like Rory accompanying a jazz vocalist on acoustic piano. What that means is that these guys are NOT using an arranger as a crutch for not being able to play at a 'pro' level.

There is absolutely no reason not to enjoy the pleasures that a $5000.00 self-playing instrument can bring, but I always get the feeling of a prostitute telling you how 'good' you are and how much she loves you. With the constant chorus of 'attaboys' we get on this board, no matter how amateurish the performance, it's no wonder we love our arrangers so much. Where else in the world is there where we can do no wrong. Let's face it boys, this is 'warm fuzzy' heaven. Hey, who needs reality when the alternative is so, so sweet. Anyhoo, let me get back to my studio and crank up my trusty Tyros 2 (hasn't been turned on in about a year). I want to see how 'Take Five' sounds as a cha-cha. I'm gonna do it in one take, too.



chas

I am out of town, but cannot WAIT to call my wife and ask her when my "self-playing" keyboard turned itself on, and I can find out what it "self-played" ...

I think I can understand chas' apparent resentment towards AK players (not to put words in his mouth because he certainly can speak for himself - but that's the feeling I get), because here are a lot of us - some with little formal music education - out playing, entertaining people and making some money, while a lot of really talented jazz players are playing for themselves, or for no one at all... and SERIOUSLY, I thought about this last night when I went into this 'Louisiana Style' restaurant next to the hotel and here was this 17 piece band playing some of the BEST big band jazz and funk you would want to hear. ... during a break I spoke with the PIANO player and found out they all do this as 'rehearsal night' ... they do not get paid, but get dinner and a few beers ... I really thought it was a shame ...

Another thought I have that some people might not quite understand, is that when we compliment someone's performance it is within the context of what it is ... we are not measuring it against the best musical performances in history ...
Case in point: I played a gig a couple of weeks ago where people were listening to me for upwards of three hours - playing bossa to Buffett, old time RnR, Great American Standards etc., etc. ... when I finished, I received countless compliments including "you are a very talented individual" and some even asked if I had CDs they could buy ... when I went home, I didn't think "boy that performance was worth a Grammy, or should have been a concert in front of tens of thousands of people", but I used my God given talent to the best level that I could and I was proud of what I had done ...

If someone thinks I am wrong for feeling that way, that's on them ...

But, MAN, I wish I had the talent to play with those guys - and gals - last night ...

And I can't wait to hear "Take Five Cha Cha Cha" ...

I remember why I don't hang out at Jazz or Piano player forums, they wouldn't like what I do!
And I know all six jazz songs!

I can play piano and organ too (including pedals) but prefer an AK. I learn SO MUCH from playing with/between the style elements and making the song my very own. There is such a thing as listening and learning, but if you have a closed mind, well......... As an educational tool, AKs have incredible resources. As a money maker, ditto.

I look forward to that cha cha also In fact, the 3x has a hellavu style. Maybe I'll throw my version out!

Uh Zuki, that was a joke. 'take five/one take', get it? Seems like Russ was the only one that did (I heard from him a bit ago). But it's okay. We all start to lose some of our cognitive processes (along with our sense of humor) as we age.

chas

Uh, Chas, surprised that you would include yourself in your last sentence.

"Spalding, guys like Marco Parisi can play the heck out of anything with keys. The Arranger doesn't make him sound good, he makes the Arranger sound good.....there's a difference. You continue to trot out how an arranger is this amazing tool, and you're right....it CAN be. But what we're talking about here is not the instrument itself but the way it is used by some to delude people, including sometimes themselves, into thinking they are better musicians than they really are. Every guy you named is a top flight musician and would be still, even if there were no such thing as an arranger keyboard. That's why they were hired in the first place."

Chas it is only you that believes people are deluding others or themselves about their musical abilities . I know great performances when I have heard it and so do you . None of us here claim to be musical geniuses on the level of marco parisi or the others . And if you went on the korg forum or motifator forum or roland forum you would find a similar bunch of musicians encouraging less than record label performances because we are all striving to get better and that's what decent people do .

But you have already nailed the issue in your post . Talent is what makes the instrument sound good . The instrument by itself won't sound good unless all you do is trigger the impressive intro and then immediately press the ending button and that gets old real quick .It's the stuff you play in between that makes the instrument sound good and it's the talent you bring to the table that makes the performance stand out . Same as any instrument . Why do you always choose to define the musical worth of an arranger by the worst examples of people playing it ? In no other context have I ever heard a musical instruments status or value defined solely by the abilities or lack thereof by the worst player of that instrument .

That simply makes no earthly sense !

I assumed everybody got it Chas!
I sent to see Dave B when I was in college in the early 60's. I think Take Five was a moderate hit at the time. The arena was packed but I don't think there were too many who really appreciated what was going on, and when the response wasn't up to par, the guys in the group seemed to lose interest too. I still remember a song where they each took extended solos though. I was in awe!

Hi all,

Everywhere we perform, I announce Monica as our singer & myself as our button pusher. That says it all & I no longer feel guilty about anything.

I any case, the art of pushing the correct button at the correct time is an skill by itself. I do not feel humiliated in the least!

Cheers all,

Henni