It clearly makes no sense Ian

I think if people want to post their music good or bad let them . If you don't like their music just skip the post . There is no compulsion for anyone comment on the musical contribution being offered and if you can't say something that can help then don't say anything at all .

The synthzone is becoming a much less toxic place and as far as I am concerned the necessary culling that has taken place over the last few weeks was well overdue . Hopefully now we can get back on track and this forum can be about what it says on the label .

I totally agree, if someone can't offer constructive advice then it is better not to comment at all. I don't want to see us return to the situation where everyone becomes afraid of posting their musical performances.

My personal opinion:

The arranger keyboard was always designed by manufactures as primarily an instrument for the home user; (There basically all the easy play features of an organ in one box with more sounds added) therefore to try and prove otherwise is quite fruitless.

The only people who look down on arrangers are other musicians, which as they account for less than 1% of an audience you might as well just ignore them and concentrate on the rest of your audience who couldn’t care less what instrument you are playing.

Constructive criticism of a performance is the best feedback any musician can have (You don’t have to be able to play an instrument to provide constructive criticism) and can only make the performer improve further.

Calling a performance c***, or praising a poor performance serves no useful purpose as it will either cause the individual to give up, or make them think they is better than they are, which will always be counterproductive.

As mentioned above the audience couldn’t care less what instrument you are playing they are just there for the music, so just produce your best and enjoy yourself, that way everybody goes home happy.


One of the biggest annoyances for me when listening to arranger play, are the same into/endings, style variations etc. being used by a lot of arranger players, as when I go out to listen to music I want to hear the performer not the machine, (The machine should be secondary to the performer, not the other way round) thus the use of all singing all dancing styles are a big turn off for me, however keep the backing instruments to a minimum (Or create your own personal Midi backing) and really play your heart out using all the limbs available to you is what for me makes a great performance. (One of the biggest performance increases any arranger player can do is to add a set of bass pedals and expression pedal, then use them to their full potential, as it really adds life to the performance as well as looking great)

Remember a good performer is recognisable by their style of playing, not the instrument they are playing.

Some will agree and some will disagree with the above, which is why I say it is purely my personal opinion.

Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

Hi Guy's

I have been reading this post with great interest, as one who posts quite often and according to some contributors to this post probably more than I should, I would like to add in my halfpenny worth.

I started my musical career on guitar as many of us did in the 50's and 60's and progressing from 3 chords I played guitar as a semi-pro for many years never really achieving the level I would have liked. I then drifted into playing bass eventually converting to fretless bass as part of a jazz quartet which lasted approx. 25 years. I always considered myself relatively proficient on bass but "always looked enviously at the pianist".

Before my spell on bass I was part of a quite successful semi-pro trio consisting of guitar, bass, drums and three part harmony. I was the low harmony but always was always "envious of the lead singer". Forgot to mention I also got involved for a time with a "Country Band" on bass and again singing the low harmony.

Along came my first arranger, now disappearing into my quiet space, I could try to play the keys and sing to my hearts content without offending anyone. After a while I started to play and sing with a mate on guitar mainly Pop and Country, and then wait for it, someone heard us practicing and ask us to play for them, whoopee, a chance to perform on the arranger.

This lasted about 2 years but sadly ended about 18 months ago, ahh well back to the studio. I then started to become more serious about recording, I still do a few live gigs but only by myself with the G70 and always for charity.

Somewhere along the way I discovered SZ, here was somewhere to post my efforts and see what other folks thought about my music, but it took a long time to pluck up the courage to post my first attempt. Since then I feel strongly that I have benefited from the comments I have received and I don't mean the back slapping.

I would never class myself as competent either as a vocalist or a musician on any instrument but I love my music and would be completely lost without it.

I have, over the last few years derived a great amount of pleasure from my involvement on this forum and would like to think I have gained a few good friends, albeit long distance ones (Thank God for the Internet).

To any others lurking in the shadows wondering whether or not to post their music I would say this, be-damned to the so called professionals who criticize but don't post, ask for constructive criticism and the descent chap's on here will respond, you may not always like what they say (Someone even had the nerve to suggest that I took some singing lessons, the cheek of it ) but most have been around for ever and you will find their opinions helpful.

If you wish to improve, and I think most of us would love to, the regular guy's on this forum can and will help, don't be put off by a few nasty comments, even some who are no longer with us certainly gave some good advice at times, just give it a try. I look back at some of my old and not so old recordings and I fairly cringe.I am, though some folks may not believe it, constantly trying new things always with the object of improving my performance.

I am now a complete amateur in the sense that I no longer get paid to perform but that doesn't stop me trying to achieve as near a profession performance as I can.

If you want to know if your performance sounds professional who better to ask than a bunch of, in the main, kindly experienced (OLD) professionals.

All the very best

Col

Well said, guys...I agree wholeheartedly.

I like the way the forum is going, especially the more relaxed feeling that keeps getting better.

Nigel, I don't envy your job as moderator, because I know you are softhearted and some of the decisions you have been forced to make weren't easy.

Thanks again for providing this great forum for us "renegades" of the keyboard world...ha ha!

Ian

Wow...it looks like I opened a Pandora's box here!

I don’t have the time to post much anymore, but I couldn’t stand by here without commenting once again.

Interesting, controversial, unconventional, educational, informative, rebellious, confrontational, provocative, stimulating, challenging, etc are some of the words I would use to describe Chas’s postings in this thread. I definitely would not throw in the words pompous, demeaning, insulting, etc.

Chas was making a point that I feel a few of you missed, particularly DMAC. I went back and read his comments here word by word 2x, and found nothing that he wrote was out of line. What WAS out of line was misinterpretation of what he was actually saying by some of the readers. And definitely a lack of appreciation for his candidness and “out of the box” thinking. The kind of thinking that great inventors, great scientists, great writers, great artists and great MUSICIANS have used to advance civilization and society over the years to greater levels.

As I see it, he was addressing the lack of desire of players to improve themselves and the delusional self-image of those who choose to stay in Arranger Keyboard Heaven. He didn’t condemn anyone for it. He didn’t chastise anyone. He simply brought it to the attention of those who refuse to face reality. That there are arranger players who fool themselves into thinking they are the best thing since sliced bread and refuse to recognize, for one thing, that, for lack of better words they are ½ a musician. And that by staying in “arranger land” they don’t have to come out of that mode and put in the effort a pianist does in becoming a more complete musician.

Now I’m not talking about the real pro’s who play professional piano but use arrangers by choice. And I’m not talking about those who prefer an arranger for the full orchestra/band sound it puts out over a piano.

I’m meaning arranger players who make their “full productions” by depending on auto-playing to do most of the background work, while they....SING. Have not any of you noticed there are very few these days who can play a whole song as an instrumentalist only? In fact, there are very few who can even play 16 bars of melody in between their vocals. Even fewer who remember to use their “break” option. It’s....let the machine just run by itself while I sing to it!

I was listening to the organ part of Santana’s Oye Como Va in the supermarket the other day and the butcher and I both commented you’ll never hear playing like that again in those pre-arranger days. You’ll never hear talent like that again, because, as I’ve already said….the machines do it all for us now. No need any longer to study your craft. Just set the gimmicks and gadgets running, turn your video camera on yourself, and bingo!....you’re ready to go on Youtube for your 15 minutes of fame!


As for Nigel’s “elimination” of Chas’s rebuttal post to DMAC (I happened to catch it before it “disappeared”) I agree Nigel did the right thing. It was extremely disruptive to the somewhat even flow of the thread. But...while the anger WAS upsetting, to me it was understandable. Let’s face it, we’re musicians. We’re emotional people or we wouldn’t be playing music...”emotion” being one of the main requirements.

Now, I felt DMAC missed the actual message Chas was spelling out in his post and “disrespected” him and talked down to him. For the record, I consider Chas to be a very wise person (from his writings). So Chas did a “knee-jerk” reaction and wrote back what he did. Now, I feel he should have “cooled off” before writing back, and definitely he should have been more refined in his response, but I refer back to what I said previously: some people just ask to be told off! DMAC challenged Chas, spoke down to a much wiser person (in my opinion), and that was the result.


Russ wrote: “In my opinion, there have been a few posts here recently that were plain AWFUL! What's the right thing to do, in light of the request by the poster to comment?"

Mark is thinking....let the poster make decisions like that easier for us. When you post a song, you also post one of the following:

1) ALL comments are appreciated, both good or bad. I am sincerely looking to improve my playing
2) NO comments please, either good or bad. I’m too thin-skinned to take the chance on negative reviews.
3) I’m just looking to share what I’m doing...don’t care much about improving, so...no comments needed, and....thanks for listening.

There’s a saying in psychology and religious circles: Loathe the sin but love the sinner. Bringing that philosophy to groups like this, it means: What’s the big deal about thinking or saying something like: "that song you did was really awful,but that doesn’t mean you’re not a great person in my book. It just means....”that song you did was really awful!”

BTW....the best part of this whole thread was Ian’s response with the “minion” eating the popcorn. Now THAT'S what I call “out of the box” thinking! (Mark uses the "overused "hand clap!" Chas…..you have a long way to go to top that one!

Whewwww! I was full of energy when I started this post. Now I'm out of breath and am going to sleep for the next 7 days....maybe even a week!

Mark

I think the damage has been done,.....and many will go back in their shells after reading all this and never post music because of it. I hope not as I personally enjoy listening to ALL work posted. lets leave the egos at the door and enjoy the magic of playing music on an arranger KB.

Mark, we must have posted about the same time.

I would like to clear up a few things that may be misrepresented in some of the previous posts. For instance:
1. I defy anyone to find a single post of mine that negatively criticized an individual performance or said someone's performance "sounded like crap". Go back as far as you like. Donny is the reighning king of 'dumpster diving', maybe he can find something.

2. I have posted positive comments on a number of performances, including those by Russ (video medley), Rory Hoffman (amazing musician), 124 (a very good and authentic version of Jamblaya), Beachbum (really like his voice), Donny (was pleasantly supprised by the quality of his voice and vocal style), one of our Latin members (can't remember his name) who did an absolutely beautiful guitar simulation on the tune 'Masquerade', The Wolf (his truly hilarious AND musical, presentations), Diki (for doing a very credible job on a very difficult jazz tune - Giant Steps, I believe), Randy the sax guy (a beautiful performance of Autum Leaves), and the guy who used to produce all those lovely soundscapes on the Tyros 4, and probably a few others who I can't immediately recall. In fact, it is performances like these, along with the opportunity to get to know and interact with, people like Russ and a few others with whom I share many other musical and non-musical interests, that I participate in this forum----which brings me to....

3. FOX NEWS - "This is an Arranger forum; if you don't like arrangers why are you here?

FACTS: Aside from the fact that I currently own 4 arrangers (and have owned 7 in all) and will probably buy another sometime in the future (just not for professional use - as is my choice), I would submit that this is more of (or at least as much of) a SINGER'S forum as it is an Arranger forum. I don't think that I'm exaggerating when I say that 90% of the performances posted FEATURE VOCALS with the accompaniment being (more often than not) a very bland, plain vanilla backing triggered by very basic chords........or a SMF. And while this is okay, it hardly shows off the capabilities of a very expensive and feature-laden instrument. Very few SZ performances would convince me to buy one brand of Arranger over another (but I might pick one SINGER over another ). Oh, and BTW, I guess an Arranger forum is the perfect place for 16 pages of posts on THE WEATHER.

4. FOX NEWS: 'I love how this place is so peaceful and welcoming now.' Translation - 'we no longer accept any dissenting opinions, especially if they come from certain people.'

FACTS: Some of our current 'peaceniks' have been some of the biggest agitators and rabble-rousers in the not-so-distant past. How soon we forget.

5. My posts in this thread were in support of the original poster's comments (which, oddly, no one seems to have a problem with). Does make one wonder if it might just be the messenger.

6. As to my 'reprimand', I responded to a PERSONAL attact by a finger-wagging member demanding 'what did I have to say for myself' as though he had some God-given authority over me. Being FAR removed from kindergarden and not having engaged in any PERSONAL attacks myself, I naturally resented this. I'm sorry that Nigel didn't see it that way, but then, that's his perogative. As far as feeling comfortable posting music here, that really is an individual thing and a matter of how you see yourself as a musician. Since I have never negatively commented on ANYONE'S performance, I don't see how you can blame ME for feeling uncomfortable posting. If you see a GENERAL negative comment and decide to apply it to yourself, well then I guess it fits into the "if the shoe fits....." category.

Feel free to point out anything in this post that you find offensive or untrue.

Peace,

chas

Ian

1) Looking at the OP, as I re-read it, Mark made no reference to arranger keyboards, but to the creation of today's and tomorrow's 'pop music' ...


2) quote: "...and voila', the OMB was re-invented and became the keyboard equivalent of the three-chord teenage Rock guitar player. The difference is, SOME of the guitar players learned a few more chords; most of the arranger players didn't."

quote:"There is absolutely no reason not to enjoy the pleasures that a $5000.00 self-playing instrument can bring, ..."

Perhaps I'm "thin-skinned" but to ME that is demeaning and insulting language ...
and I will repeat myself by saying my KB doesn't play a note that I do not initiate ... the chords may be BASIC, and possibly INCORRECT, but the notes don't play unless I play something ...

My car engine runs fine, but if I don't drive it, it doesn't go anywhere ...

But, enough of this ...


chas, I'm glad you weren't banned ...

Be well, live a happy life ...