I don't know if I understood your answer bill . How do you create original pieces of music ? Do you acquire sequences and loops from the net or do you actually create your own original music ? Actually playing into the instrument or daw your your own beats sequences ? What is your process in making original music ? Do you have any examples you could share ?

I accept your point that a workstation is more advanced than an arranger workstation , that's never been the issue . Whether your controller keyboard has 8 plus 8 real time assignable knobs and mine just has 8 or you have access to many thousands of loops on the net (I do too by the way ) is really irrelevant to the point I am making about similarity .

Certainly your assumption about using an arranger to mimic big band music does not accord with what I do on mine .

In a few weeks I will have the authority to post up clips from my choirs DVD "praise is what we do 2 " and there is not a big band arrangement in sight 😀 (but you have given me an idea !) .

I pasted a clip of the Kronos tutorial done by a korg demonstrator using the onboard sequencer . The only element I would not be able to replicate on my ten year old arranger was audio recording and karma . Now before you say it I know that he was just scratching the surface of the Kronos workstation , yes that's true but similarly ( there's that word again ) I would be just scratching the surface of my korg arranger sequencer . He could have used the assignable knobs for additional functions etc (so could I on my korg pa ) He could have gone on to show how the assignable knobs could be used in the mixer to pan instruments , control master effects per track etc (as can my korg pa ) but in the basic demo he was showing the ease of use of the kronos sequencer . The process or work flow was very similar to my own . The true reason these demos are not done on an a arranger keyboard and only certain aspects of the arranger keyboard are emphasised is to keep the market segmented to increase profits .

HI Spalding

I have 1000s of sequence tracks (Not complete sequences) that I have played in and stored over the years, therefore to actually require something new is rare as I have done it all before. The part about the web etc. was that for new users you do not have to start everything from scratch (Which can be difficult when you are learning how to transfer what is in your head to the sequence) until you become more experienced.

When creating a sequence I either play or drag and drop what I want in the order that I want, and if necessary modify part of the sequence by using the punch in and out in overwrite mode. (All done using physical buttons on the controller) (The tracks are assigned to physical buttons on the controller)
Then I choose the sounds (Track by track) from lists and modify the parameters (Including any effects) using the rotary and sliders on the controller. (In real time without having to resort to menus or different screens)
All the tracks volume & pan are then assigned to the rotary and slider controls (A single button press) to get the balance ok.
Finally all the global effects are assigned to the rotary knobs and sliders (Again 1 button press) to finish off.
NOTE: During all this I have only used 1 screen and the real time controls, plus a few mouse clicks.

The file is then transferred to the mobile and plugged into the keyboard Midi, where I make the final adjustments (Using factory or user sounds if required) as the file is played, and then I save any changes required in pre-sets for live play. (I do not need any external memory as I have upped the default user pre-set number to 5000. (The total numbers that can be stored in the keyboard are only limited by disc size, so if I did want more pre-set slots it is easy to up the default number)

The above is why for creating original music the Workstation/DAW is spot on, and the arranger is not, (It does not have enough real time control forcing you to jump through hoops to get things done) l if on the other hand you want to create something of a specific genre then the arranger is better as the basis of what you want is probably already built in.

Bill

Thanks for engaging in a discussion with me Bill . I am going to see what things I can control in real time in my sequencer using the 8 physical assignable sliders on my pa1x on the sequencer . I will get back to you with what I find . I have not explored everything on my keyboard so this is good for me .

Just so we are clear , can you do all the things you described above just using your controller keyboard or did you have to connect it to your daw ? And are you talking about the screen on your keyboard or computer ? I am not comparing my arranger or any workstation with daw .

Arrangers were considered toys in the late 90's and early 2000's but things have drastically changed for the better since then. The Technics KN7000 started to shake things up and then shortly thereafter the Tyros arrived on the scene and quite frankly it sounded as good, if not better, than some of the workstations at the time. Arrangers continue to get better and the features are in many cases cutting edge and highly functional. You don't find lyric scroll on workstations or certain other features like songbook, etc. On the other hand, arrangers usually won't have a *real* Sampler or professional sounding drum kits for that matter. Although the drum kits on the latest high-end arrangers have improved quite a bit, including those on the Tyros 5.

I owned the original Tyros as most people on this forum already know and I enjoyed it immensely but I ended up selling it after I purchased my Roland Fantom G7 (76 keys). Looking back I wish I had kept the Tyros but hindsight is always 20/20 they say. Arrangers are great composing tools and make great sketch pads for getting song ideas and the auto-accompaniment feature(s) come in very handy for that very purpose.

Arrangers are live performance keyboards and even though workstations can and are used for live performance they are also great in the studio and have certain features such as *real* samplers and multi-track recording which is something most arrangers don't offer. Workstations usually have professional quality sounds while mid-range and some high-end arrangers are usually a few notches down in quality by comparison. But the gap is shrinking and that's encouraging.

Auto-accompaniment is what makes an arranger an arranger and as such they are different beasts than your typical workstation keyboard. Workstations usually have drum 'beat' backing tracks and also arpeggiators but not full blown accompaniment obviously. Workstations can be more time consuming because of their comprehensive feature set, whereas, arrangers are basically 'grab and go' keyboards and are really fun to play. Keyboard players have different needs but in my opinion everyone should own a top notch arranger. They are great sketch pads for composing songs plus they are 'one man band' instruments and thereby allow a single person to become his or her own band - without the costs associated with a real band and they get to keep all the proceeds.

I'm still debating about getting a Korg Pa-900. I recently saw a Tyros 3 advertised for sale but I'm kind of leaning toward the Pa-900 since it would be brand new, with the latest technology (including after-touch), with a 2 year warranty if I'm not mistaken. Summer NAMM is right around the corner and it will be interesting to see what Korg and Casio have to offer. We already know the Pa4x is coming down the pike and I would really prefer something with 256 note polyphony although I'm not sure whether Korg will step up to the plate. Ketron is floundering but on the other hand Casio is up and coming. Roland is focusing mainly on the masses (as opposed to musicians) since most of their recent product releases haven't been very inspiring in my opinion. The BK-9 has some nice sounds but it also has a few shortcomings. Not the least of which are the two, low resolution, monochrome LCD screens that harken back to the 1950's. The Tyros 5 would be a great option if it didn't cost an arm and a leg. I'm not complaining I'm just critiquing. The best option seems to be the Pa-900 but I'll probably hold off until after summer NAMM. I might even wait until winter NAMM 2015 because the show in Anaheim focuses more on keyboards and by then the Pa4x should be on the market but who knows.

All the best, Mike

Thanks for coming into the discussion Mike. Your contributions been really helpful. Having looked at the YouTube clip of that initially started this thread involving Richie for Formidoni explaining the differences between korg arrangers and korg workstations. Do you agree or disagree that the advanced arrangers such as the Korg PA range are more similar than different to workstations in terms of traditional workstation use? For example sampling ,sound manipulation sequencing editing, composing mastering etc ? I think we are agreed that in terms of styles and live play and instant arrangements ,nothing can really compare to an arranger. But what I'm interested in , is establishing whether or not in your opinion (and I understand completely it's just your opinion,) whether or not arrangers such as the korg pa range can justifiably be considered capable workstations comfortable for studio use and not just a live play instrument . I would love to hear your views and others experience of using your arranger as a workstation .

OkAY, MY 2 CENTS WORTH. First, most people tend to strongly defend what THEY own, because it justifies a decision they've made (althouh few will admit to this bias). To me, 'the proof is in the pudding' and the pudding in this case is the professional (as in high-end, multi-million dollar) recording studio. In most such studios you will always find the following: 1. one or more top-of-the-line acoustic pianos 2. a mint-condition REAL B3/Leslie 3. one or more acoustic drum kits and 4. multiple synth/workstations. Rarely will you find an arranger keyboard, and if you do it will probably NOT be featured on any final-production tracks. Guitarist, BTW, tend to bring their own instruments to the studio.

Since cost is not a factor with these studios, one would have to conclude that the synth/workstation is the keyboard of choice for applications requiring non-acoustic sounds, sound effects, or acoustic simulations, AND where SOUND and FLEXIBILITY is the top priority. Apparently, this also carries over to TOP-OF-THE-LINE, A-LIST, PROFESSIONAL, live performances as well, including touring acts, TV bands, etc.

No one doubts or disputes how good an arranger can sound in the hands of a great player such as Marco Parisi, but let's face it; 1. the average DEDICATED arranger player is NOT a great player, and 2. the 'Marco Parisi's' of this world are more-than-competent players on ANY keyboard, including acoustic piano. Also, we all acknowledge how near-perfect arrangers are for OMB's playing (mostly) the NH circuit but these performers are booked mainly for their VOCALS and ENTERTAINMENT abilities. How many times have you heard arranger players tell stories of equipment malfunctions or the like, and did (or finished) the gig DJ'ing (without any complaints from their audiences). This would NEVER, NEVER, EVER happen in a jazz club or even a rock club (which featured live players). Maybe I'm straying off topic a little, but hopefully you see the point I'm trying to make (with NO animosity towards arranger keyboards or arranger players). Just the facts, mam'n, just the facts.

Okay, gotta go back to listening to Cory Henry (Snarky Puppy), one of the most exciting young players to come along in awhile. Take a listen, although it might make you never touch an arranger (or any other keyboard) again .

chas

thanks Chas. I have listened to Cory for the last 2 yaers now and he just inspires me to want to play more . He's the real deal for sure .

I am not in my corner saying that any arranger is the same as a dedicated workstation. Not at all.

But I am saying that the Korg pa arranger, ( I cant speak for other manaufacturers products) is more similar to a workstation than different. And I say that as someone that uses it 50% as a workstation .

clearly the majority of workstation users are not owners of multimillion dollar studios, they dont play out of the highest fidelity speakers, they dont often get paid and they dont play to the most discerning audiences who have come to hear the pristine sound of their latest aquisition.

Similarly, most multi-million dollar studios do not sequence all the tracks plug-in all the instruments microphones bases guitarists through one keyboard . Presumably because they have dedicated equipment for the specific purpose. But that doesn't stop most workstations and to some extent certain arrangers from having similar functions to these.

Is that fair comment so far ?

I would go further to say that most workstation users are in fact hobbyists and weekend warriors whose full-time job is not making music and so they are not concerned about buying the most expensive equipment or how long it takes them to craft some music for their own enjoyment or for others .

And there may be a few talented and dedicated enthusiasts that really get under the hood of their workstation and who knows, some one might say that 9 synth engines is not enough for their needs ..they need 12 and the Kronos does not cut it anymore. But i gaurantee you that a fair amount of them dont go much deeper into the full functionality of their workstation than some of us with our arrangers.

Nows thats just my personal view Chas and I accept it's not the Gospel truth or the most authoritative opinion . but it is based on my experience of working with keyboard musicians in particular and watching discussion on other keyboard forums and my own experience in making music.I understand you used to own a fantom G (maybe you still do) but i'll bet you have not got under the hood of that beast or your korg PA1X for that matter but it did not stop you from owning them and enjoying them .

Is that fair comment ?

the simple point I am making is that for most functions that a workstation user requires ,1 keyboard covers most (not all) the bases and its an arranger like the Korg PA. But its not marked that way for monetary reasons and not because of lack of features and functions.

Sometimes the tone of my postings doesn't come across very well. I am not trying to be argumentative .and I'm not defending any particular keyboard whether it's my korg PA 1X or my brothers motif Xs or my nephew's fantom x . All of which I have used . I'm just entering i hope in friendly discussion information and hopefully enlightenment about the capabilities of some of these tremendous instruments that we play but rarely fully utilise or are not even aware exist in most cases .

PS I am really pleased to see you posting on the forum every now and again. It's always a treat . I miss Ian and dare I mention the name Dikki too .

Chas, good points. I might add, though, that probably close to 100 percent of people who own or work in recordings studios are 100 percent ignorant regarding arrangers. They wouldn't know one if it bit them in the butt.
I'm betting a good keyboardist that fully understands arrangers could do recordings in the same studio and the public, listening to the finished product, could never tell the difference!
Good to hear from you, btw!

Hi Spalding

A DAW is nothing more than a hardware workstation on a computer, thus they are interchangeable. (The computer just has more capacity) The Kronos is essentially a computer DAW with all the same features (Including its own plug-ins) with the only difference being you have to use what Korg gives you, rather than being able to load in what you want.

I use my computer for main work as it has a nice 24” IPS panel to work with which is easier on the eye then the small 8.4” screen on my keyboard, (Might get round to changing it for a 10” one day) and another reason why Organ/Arrangers are not ideal for production. (Interestingly most arrangers that come out these days have software for the iPad which gets round this problem but adds quite a bit to the spend if you don’t already have one)

As my Wersi is in itself a computer I can also use the controller directly with it if required, however I also have a Korg nano Kontrol (Which can be picked up for about £40) if I want to add a bit more control when finalizing.

Sound/Synth Engines consist of Analogue (Additive & Subtractive), FM, Wavetable, Sampling, Modelling & Effects; if you have all of these in your keyboard/DAW then it covers everything that has ever been made. (Thus 6 engines is all you will ever need, although you can have multiples of them)

Korg Arrangers are dumbed down versions of their pro-line (Hence they are difficult for the layman to get under the hood) so that they could compete in the home market like other manufactures, the other manufactures have made their arrangers primarily for the home market from the start. (Yes I am aware that Korg made an auto accompaniment keyboard in the early 80s, but the line was never continued)

Bill

Hi Mike

I would steer clear of any Yamaha Organ/Arranger if you wish to use it as a controller, as they are very poor in this department, (The Korg will leave any of them for dead with this type of use) however as an expander they are brilliant, as virtually everything on-board can be accessed externally. (Takes a bit of working out as the manuals are not what they could be, but if you have a good understanding of Midi you can work it out)

You will also find Pro Studios have a set of networked Mac computers (Plus a couple of Windows computers) all connected to the hardware they have, in which they also have the best plug-ins available.

Spalding is correct about the vast majority are home studios, but once you have got used to a Workstation/DAW going back to doing everything on even the best arranger is just a pain in the backside. Spalding is also correct when he say for most users an arranger is all they will need, except one, in that they are way more expensive then Workstations and musicians hate spending money. However once you have got stuck into a Workstation/DAW then an Organ/Arranger becomes a pain in the backside.

Bill