Nevermind which keyboard..instruments etc...

Tonight we hosted Allen Edwards...very enjoyable entertainer. He used 'canned' music managed through a laptop.

None of the 200 some silver hairs in attendance cared a hoot that the music was canned...everyone had a great time.

The last three concerts or so have all been some sort of preprogrammed music. The silver hairs don't care...they enjoy the entertainment.

I'm not a fan of preprogrammed music...too restricting and the concert then has to be programmed...not very flexible. But I have to say...it sure seems to work...for the silver hairs and the folks that entertain them anyway.

Yes, I'm afraid that appears to be the way things are going...you don't have to be a "player", or even have a keyboard, as long as you can sing some tunes.

And, you don't even need a great singing voice, just as long as you know the right tunes and you possess some degree of "entertainer" talent.

It's happening here too, so it's not restricted to your area.

Most people are content to be "entertained"....kind of sad, but kind of true.

Makes me kind of glad I retired and don't need to gig for a living.

Ian

The same goes for arranger OMB players... Most people think its canned music anyway...

You get paid to entertain people, and entertaining is much much more then just singing.. I am a lousy singer and medicore musician.. But still i would make a great entertainer, i can make people laugh and smile or cry ... And i dont even need music to do so... Music only adds to the mix...


Its not about the wrap.... Its all about the content, and if the content is fun, emotional and sounds great, who cares...


I think only the musician himself cares about creating true music... Not the publicum.

And creating that so called "Canned Music" isn't musical talent?

We have a local duo (two attractive young ladies) who use a PSR-3000 for their backup tracks. They are both fine singers, and quite charismatic, and the audience really likes them a lot.

One does the "keyboard" duties (and sings) while the other just sings.

What makes it rather interesting, is that the "keyboard player" (if you could call her that) who has no real knowledge of actually playing one, simply loads in a full commercial midi file (minus the vocal guide track, of course) presses "PLAY" and away they go.

To add to the "entertainment", the girl in front of the keyboard, actually mimics playing along with the tune on the keys, the keyboard itself being de-activated by using the local-off midi function, and some are heard to exclaim after one of their shows, what a nice little keyboard player she is.

Pretty amusing, eh?

They are booked pretty much every weekend and get top dollar.

Ian

Ian what I am talking about is recording, arranging & playing all musical parts to achieve custom Vocal backing tracks that could never be done live on any arranger KB due multiple track part limitations ...
especially over and over again each night where you always want the arrangement to sound exactly the same,...including all parts, & breaks.. This is where the real musicianship happens in the studio and then be able to present that work on stage successfully. It has been done like this and is the standard for thousands of
Live venues & Tv shows, commercials, & major Movie background music worldwide. There are some super talented Musicians working in studios everywhere creating the coordinated background tracks for Broadway shows, Disneyland shows, etc,. etc, .......IMO Live style play using an arranger doesn't exactly fit into these applications.
There is a place for an arranger KB use,....and then there's many other musical venues that do not require the use of an arranger its as simple as that,.....musical creation in ANY shape or form and the enjoyment of those who listen have NO Bounds and day after day more new way to create are invented and that is exciting for the future of Music.

So who is going to notice if you played all those tracks yourself, or just copied pasted them from the interwens?

None but yourself, would be my answer....

Dont get me wrong, for me personally that would meke a big difference, but for the crowds, why would they care as long as they are having a good time..

Exactly, Bachus! Commercial or home made SMF makes no difference, perhaps only to the ones using the instruments, or, who are familiar with them.

When I learn that an act is using SMF or MP3 (exclusively, mind you) I usually don't bother to go hear them.

One or two is okay, but when the majority of the act's background is pretty much Karaoke, I'd rather pass on it.

And, that's my choice...most times the public don't care how it's done.

Ian

Watching a performance with one person,.....playing one instrument,......producing one sound, piano ...Guitar, Accordion, Violin, Harp, etc, ....... is all a listener sees and hears to be sensible to them in their mind.....

With that said..and you can try to twist it all you want using an arranger kb which in its own right is technologically Alien to the layman, which produces countless sounds,rhythms, etc, etc, over whelms the listeners senses and in turn you become some sort of automated karaokeish electronic device operator in their minds and who can blame them when they see one thing that produces so many things sound wise? Nothing wrong with it but call a spade a spade I say.

It never, ever bothered me that the arranger keyboard was alien to anyone...to me it was just another tool to make music with, and since there were lots of solo piano players and guitarists on the go, what I did was different, and that managed to get me some pretty nice gigs.

Of course, I worked hard at it, always keeping my repertoire fresh, while still remembering the favorites of repeat customers...I managed an 11 year run at a high end restaurant where the longest any other solo performer lasted there was two weekends, so I must have been doing something right.

More than once I explained how the arranger worked to patrons, and other performers, who dropped by, and I never really felt any alienation by either...in fact, some of the piano players I knew, eventually got an arranger. Being a demonstrator with Yamaha really helped force me to keep trying to improve my playing, and also prompted me to learn the arranger keyboard's inner most workings, so I was always coming up with newly edited styles, and different musical arrangements of mainstream tunes as well as the old standards.

To put it more bluntly, I never did give a shit what other players thought about the instrument I used, so the alleged stigma never bothered me in the slightest, and I was always working steady and making a pretty good living at doing what I love...playing music.

I never wanted to be a singer, and I'm not that interested in vocal tunes ( probably why I like fusion and jazz and classical so much) so watching/listening to someone sing mostly over SMF never had much attraction for me...that's not to say it isn't a viable way of entertaining...I just don't find it very interesting.

The business of entertaining is continually changing, and kudos to those who can adapt/modify to keep up with it and still make a living at it. I'm comfortable with being out of the loop, and, other than the occasional wedding supper gig, and, some recording, most of my playing will be for my own entertainment.

I thought I'd miss it more than I do, but I suppose I was ready for retirement...plus, I still play everyday, and that's how it all got started, so I guess it was full circle.

Ian

There is some degree of truth to this thread - as I've stated so many times in the past, "our audiences just want to be entertained." and for the most part, this is the case.

Now, in my part of the world, nearly all the American Legions and VFWs went from live bands and OMBs to DJs and KJs about 5 years ago, and most of them have dropped the DJs entirely about 3 years ago. The KJs tend to draw the larger crowds the American Legions, VFWs and Animal clubs. Some have pretty good followings, mostly folks that want that 15 minutes of fame on stage, while singing their favorite, mostly older songs. In reality, the vast majority couldn't carry a tune in a 5-gallon bucket, but there are a few very talented singers that seem to show up every Friday night.

Now, the KJ guy always hopes that he can get some folks to get out on the dancefloor, but that's often a very difficult task. Mainly because some drunken fool is on stage trying to sing Patsy Cline's Crazy and her voice sounds like the family cat got it's tail caught in a wringer. The KJ guy, for the most part, starts out his night by singing the first few songs himself, especially if he, or she, has a decent singing voice. When the audiences don't respond by heading for the dancefloor, the KJ, similar to the DJs, begins cranking up the volume to near ear-bleed levels, thinking that will put someone on the dancefloor, but it rarely works that way.

The pay scale for the KJs, at least here, is $100 to $150 for a 4-hour job. This is about the same amount that a OMB or duo got at the same locations more than a decade ago, but they don't seem to care about the low wages - they do the KJ jobs on the side and rarely claim the income for tax purposes. They have to put up with drunks, crazies, and people with incredible egos, plus they usually work from 8 to midnight, and get home after 1 a.m.. They can have it! I sure don't want it.

As for competition, not to me. While some have tried in vein to get into the NH circuit, the ADs will NOT hire them around my part of the world. Neither will the high end restaurants and nite clubs, at least not those in the Baltimore metro area. They will hire OMBs, and small bands, but NOT KJs or DJs. I don't know why they will not hire them - I never asked.

Some KJs here are also DJs, and they tend to get a fair number of wedding jobs, but not those extremely high paying jobs that Donny is always touting. For the most part, they feel lucky if they get one wedding a month, and that's if they're really good at what they do. I know a few of these guys, and every one of them has a full-time day job somewhere else so he can eat on a regular basis.

As for people thinking the keyboard is nothing more than a canned music device, Donny is right. In that light, I set about educating my audiences several years ago. It was one of the smartest things I did as an OMB entertainer. At least once a month, I put on a demonstration of the arranger keyboard by explaining that nothing is automatic and you must be able to play the instrument. I demonstrate this by first firing up the keyboard and using it as a piano (which I'm not very good at), and begin playing "As Time Goes By" or another popular song everyone seems to know. Then, while playing, I begin singing the song, and tell them that now I'm going to be adding some of the more than 700 instruments that are in the keyboard. I hit the accompaniment button, but keep everything muted, then activate the style parts one at a time, telling them which instrument I will be adding. The audience is absolutely fascinated by this demonstration, and many, after the performance, come up to me and tell me that they never knew it was me actually playing the keyboard. Many thought it was nothing more than a CD player with lots of buttons. I even demonstrate the vocal harmony system, which equally amazes them. They love this technology, and for the most part, are fascinated by what can be done with an arranger keyboard. Several asked how much the keyboard cost, and where they could buy them. I usually send them to the local GC. I would not want to inflict the barrage of questions they would have on Frankieve.

So, I guess the KJs, and DJs are competition for someone out there, but not for those of us that work the senior circuits, high end restaurants, nite clubs, etc... From my standpoint, they can have all those $150 a night jobs where they put up with drunks and crazies - for me, it's just not worth it.

That's just my take on this, but keep in mind I'm an old fart, and we don't know anything - just ask a kid!

Cheers,

Gary

Gary...IMO this is a very "GREY" area as it still doesn't explain the difference between someone playing a solo Piano alone,....vs someone "OPERATING" an Automatic Computerized music playing machine as that is what they are hearing. It's nice to try to explain to the audience once in a while what your doing, ....I myself have done Seminars for Musical appreciation Societies many times but I always tell and demonstrate to them how I "Control" the Arranger KB automatic sounds and styles via the keys & chord changes,...
it's not rocket science but that way they understand more of what is actually going on when they hear all the rhythms and instruments playing by one person.This also takes up time from the 1hr show which I try not to do unless it's a longer time on stage.

carry on

It stills makes me a bit annoyed when I see entertainers faking it by pretending to play and hitting transport buttons on an SMF playback. I am also being reminded here that the audience doesn't know or care.

Except for my own honor and satisfaction, why in hell have I worked to improve my playing all these years, to end up being no more appreciated than them?

Sad state of affairs.

Really sad.

Gary, I like they idea of your demonstration. If you could ever make a video of it, I'd love to see it. Groove on.

I agree that would be a kool video demo.

I've heard your music, Bernie, and you are what I call, an "honest" player...your stuff is well done, and is a reflection of your passion for playing music.

Ian

Thank you Ian. You are a friend and a gentleman. These, of coarse, are just starters.

I sometimes do a sort of demo also. I just turn on the drums and start "introducing" the band. I bring in the bass man, then a guitar strum, then I play a piano riff, then a ride on sax and/or guitar or organ. It generally goes over quite well. At least they know I'm in control because the "band"
just comps while I talk and I even throw in a mistake or two and tell them that it's on purpose because someone is always looking for something wrong and I want to please everyone.
This works best is smaller, more intimate, settings, where people are actually listening in the first place.

I had a lot of fun like that at clinics, Don...I'd intentionally play the acoustic guitar out of tune, and then abruptly stop the song, admonish the guitar player, and then "tune" it using the pitch wheel and some well chosen notes. It always got a laugh.

The arranger is quite a palette of sounds and a great source of ideas.

Ian

I'll be more than glad to do a video the next time I have someone with me that can shoot the video. Maybe Monday night when I do the restaurant job.

Gary

Somewhat hesitantly I enter the arena of this topic. I basically agree what Bachus says but there seems to be an element in this discussion being overlooked. An argument I have put forward on several occasions by the way.
I have now played arranger keyboards at home for over 20 years and recorded five or six CDs for friends and acquaintances. Many of you are familiar with some of my home-fried efforts.
As I rarely perform outdoors I have the luxury of concentrating on the arrangements of a song and willing the keyboard to fill in my thoughts on it. As an outdoor live performer you are much more limited cause the crowds ( whatever there number) want to be ENTERTAINED. And entertainment more often that not comes by way of recognizing the song and all the memories that go with it. Hence most keyboard entertainers will probably REPRODUCE the song as close to the original as possible. As such the step to midi files, karaoke files, backing tapes etc. is a very tiny one.
As I did a private gig last year with backing tapes I thought it would be nice to record a CD as such, a "quickie " so to speak.The response of all of those who heard/got it, though favourable was hardly any different than the one that I had gotten on the much laboured CDs in which I had gone to great lenghts to make my own arrangements and often entirely re-arrange a wellknown popsong.
In conclusion therfore I think that performing live these days it will make little or NO difference what entertainers use , as long as one is being entertained professionally. In this respect the arranger keyboard has no future. For those who not only like to fiddle with sounds (synthesizers etc.) but want to make entirely new arrangements of existing songs the challenges remain and the arranger keyboard remains a terrific tool.

regards
John

example of using an ARRANGER keyboard to its full potential:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZvgawOFiB8

example of " why bother with arranger keyboards ", just use backing tapes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFuDN3bHPw&list=UUbaSW7yCrf0Rfpks9L0WvwQ

John nice job as always...enjoyed listening I would also try recording some additional tracks to some of those songs to make them your own..... maybe some String layers, or a Brass section, Vocal Harmony parts, etc, using your arranger..keep them coming !!

Thanks Donny,

The videos included were more meant to illustrate the issue of this thread. I find it hard and not necessary to add stuff to complete commercial backing tracks as they often are pretty much an exact copy of the hit song itself. ( that is if it is a good one). the Streets of London song was recorded way back when in 2004 with my PA80 that sported no vocaliser hence the additional voice tracks sung by yours truly. Using my current PA800 I make more use of its vocaliser though I am not always that impressed by its results. It is also a matter of taste really. Currently as some of you may know I am doing a project via the internet with a musician living in another part of Holland and so far we have completed four songs, two of which can be found on my youtube page under the heading "musical collaboration". Yet another different approach as I am not using backing tapes nor arranger keyboard, but start from scratch with guitar and vocals. Both Carlo and I do use our arranger keyboards later on but oddly enough not the arranger section but sounds to embellish the basics or/and add bass and sometimes percussion. Being enthusiastic about the collaboration as well as inspired I tend to get carried away by it as you can notice for yourselves overhere. I still think that, getting back to the issue of this thread, the audiences in general could not care less where the music is coming from, as long as the performer and sound are up to scratch, as long as they are having a good time and as long as they (preferably instantly) recognize the song being performed

regards,
John

John you make very valid points, after all we are "Musicians"....
and "Creating MUSIC" is what we do!!

As a musician, i really like the first one, the arrangement makes it a John Smies special, and while i know better arrangements, its this arrangement that gives the song your character..

But the average crowd might prefer the orriginal by Ralph McTell i believe, or even th dutch version of Guus Meeuwis

Good thing Karaoke can't do originals!

Here's my latest original recorded under some duress. Think I've got the flu.


https://app.box.com/s/vbw5wqmgm8q2nmk3rcir]

Faithful/ Jazz stylings

God Bless,
Don

Don ... A nice song and well presented - ESPECIALLY if you have the flu! - but, being totally honest, I didn't care all that much for the piano 'comping' in this song ... perhaps the use of an organ voice sustaining the chords would work better? ...
Feel better, friend,
God Bless,

Thanks Tony,

I'm going to take up your suggestion and start working on some organ chops. To be honest the number of organ sounds available kind of intimidates me. I also find the organ sounds really need to be reigned in as they tend to overpower everything. I agree a nice jazz organ probably would have worked. The other thing about the organ sounds is (correct me if I'm wrong!) that I believe most of the time the organ should be played in a higher octave than piano using sparse one handed chords.

Thanks for listening!

God Bless,
Don

Don, you are right that the organ voices can be overpowering, but I think played softly 'in the background' they can add a nice underlying layer of sound ... and I think a 'jazz' organ voice would work well with the style ...

And thank YOU for contributing ...

Thats the difference between making music and creating music...

Amen to that Bachus!

God Bless,
Don