Punning on a recent thread here... On the occasion of today's Day in commemoration of the dead (in the German protestant church), I recorded an excerpt of Adagio for Strings (Barber), played live with a complex string ensemble of the Roland Integra-7 (containing supernatural solo strings and various sections from two Roland expansions SRX 04 and 06).
(Youtube content control caught me right away with copyright, so now there is a not-so-nice advertisement in it.)

http://youtu.be/PmhJsKOaKQ8

There are very, very few string samples that might be superior to this larger Integra string section. A Tyros can only compete with its small strings (quartet of solo voices), the "live strings" etc.are much more artificial. The Kronos preset strings sound very artificial, too. IMO only some specific Kronos or Motif XF external string libraries cam beat this.

The demanding thing playing this is to play a good legato without using a sustain pedal. Sustain pedal doesn't work for string sections, too many tones loudly sustained.

What I am not yet happy about is dynamics: there should be more differentiation between piano and forte, that was not due to my playing, but the voices should react more clearly to soft playing.

That's my point of view about Roland Integra strings. (I've heard a lot of real strings when I played the trombone in the symphonic orchestra of a university, so I guess I know what real string sections sound like).

Hi Rosetree,

I really enjoy your videos, and was wondering which external sound libraries for the Motif XF you consider better than the Integra's strings.

Also, on many of your videos, you write that you use Garritan and Moxf strings. Do you think they sound better together, or is using just the Garritan strings better?

Thanks!

To get proper strings you need to use VST instruments, which leave all the hardware versions way behind.

I quite like this one though

Enjoy

Bill

Thank you, Bill.

However, I prefer to have the best strings and orchestral sounds hardware has to offer. Unfortunately, I don't have the brains or inclination to use software.

Any suggestions would be of great help.

Mike

By the way, the video you posted sounds good and lush, but perhaps the Integra-7 sounds a little more realistic to my ears.

@Bill: The strings of your example sound soft, but artificial to me. The Integra's sound much more realistic to me. However the player makes nice, long pauses, which give the piece good depth. It's clear that VST strings are best. I just don' t like playing VST live, e.g. during a funeral service I would use the Integra.

@Mike: So far, I haven't found clearly better strings in the Motif libraries. But I still haven't tried the Motif XS Symphonic strings (400MB). The Garritan section has a good depth, but has a slightly strange vibrato in the upper range and a synthetic touch in some low keys. I get best results combining them with the Motif section strings. But the Integra's are still better all in all.

I am thinking about making a second version just with the Roland SRX 06 Big Strings, which are the lushest strings I know.
Here is an example of them, compared to the Motif large strings:
https://soundcloud.com/rorosetree/roland-srx-06-big-strings.

Rosetree, thanks for your detailed answer. As always, I look forward to your demos.

P.S. Here are two videos of the same piece, one using the Integra-7, and the other using a Kurzweil PC3K. Which do you think is better? (Keep in mind that the Integra-7 version has 16 instrument sounds, whereas the Kurzweil has only 7).

YouTube SoundCloud

Mike

#2 Sound Cloud seems a bit more live to my ears...

no comment...

Sorry, I misunderstood Donny's post, I thought he referred to my Soundcloud comparison SRX 06 vs. Motif.

Regarding the Integra - Kurzweil comparison: I know Kurzweil is simply the best hardware instrument for strings. However, I would have expected more realism from Kurzweil than what I hear in this example. But the Integra doesn't sound too realistic either here (although the sequencer work is very good (!), I had already heard it in the Facebook Integra group). I think it's a draw in terms of realism.
However, Synth O'man has, for some reason, not used the best Integra strings from expansion SRX 04 for this work, only strings from SRX 06, which date from the late 90s.
But I heard some brilliant Kurzweil strings, I think Kurzweil is probably still ahead of all competitors in this field.

I think I agree with your assessment, Rosetree.

From all the demos I've heard so far, Kurzweil seems to be the best for strings (and orchestral - woodwinds, orch. brass...).

Rolf,

Nice !! I also like some of your other performances using the Interga + Motif setup too. IMHO a bit more of reverb would give it a nice ambience. For hardware, not much choice for me I own S950 and an SD-2 I like layering Studio and Concert Strings with reverb and dsp settings on my S950. For software string sounds, I like the sounds of a more lush orchestra. The preset combi called "Huge Orchestra and choir" found on Garritan`s "Instant Orchestra" is great to quickly get a huge orchestra feel.

A small take using the above combi => Test sample Garritan Instant Orchestra


Thanks again for sharing. I enjoy your demos.

@Jez: Thanks for your interest in my demos. The Garritan orchestral combi sounds very nice. I also like the Garritan GPO Lite strings I have in my MoXF flash. All in all, they have a good depth, probably it is quite perfect to mix them with various Integra strings.

I just recorded an alternative version, the lushest strings I could compose in the Integra, consisting of SRX 06 'Big Strings' and SRX 04 'Full Section' and lots of reverb. It's really a 'vast' string section.
http://youtu.be/wL_YHXDOfa0

Rosetree, there is a big difference between this recording and your previous one of Adagio for Strings. This newer version sounds more like Kurzweil's strings. I like it a lot. Thanks for posting your videos.

@Rolf: Superb !! Lush indeed

This tune almost gives the feeling that the notes are climbing a spiralling staircase. Although there have been quite a few pieces which Samuel Barber composed, many remember him for this piece.

Samuel Barber would have been tired of being praised for this tune everywhere he went ... In an interview he said: "I wish you'd hear some new ones. Everyone always plays that."

I don't know if you've seen this video, but I think it sounds very good! Would you believe the Brandenburg Concert no.2 by Bach played on a Yamaha PSR-S910? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr44xwsrFrM

That was excellent, considering was basically played "live", and even more impressive, on a mid-line keyboard, mind you, one with a few really nice SuperArticulated sounds.

I have that same style, BaroqueConcerto on the Tyros4...he certainly makes the most of it, plus he's a good player to begin with.

Good find, Mike.

Ian

Thanks again!
Regarding the Brandenburg demo, I am really surprised it is so close to a Baroque ensemble, and very well played with the right hand of course. I don't like the strings, but as they don't dominate here and the harpsichord and other voices play a great role, the overall sound is close to original.
The only thing I noticed is, from 1:20 onwards, there are counter melodies (such as an oboe counter movement simultaneous to the trumpet voice) which the player does not play live and which cannot be part of the style either (as they don't "jump" with harmony changes), so they have to have been pre-recorded/programmed.

Thank you, Ian. I'm glad you like it.

I wonder if other arrangers have Baroque or Classical styles like the Yamahas. I don't recall hearing anything like this on a Roland BK-7m, or a Korg Pa series.

Does anyone know?

Yes, BK-7m has some similar styles, I remember there is a symphonic musical style which is used for Webber's "That's all I ask of you" in the Music Asssistant. But I normally detest using styles for baroque/classical music, if possible I prefer fully using both hands to play voices myself. But in the demo of Brandenburg #2 it really works well up to 1:20 (as I said, from then I hear additional voices dubbed over or pre-recorded).

Thanks for the info, Rosetree.

It makes sense to use both hands yourself to play baroque, however not everyone can do this (like me), that's why I'd love to get an arranger to supplement my Motif XF.

I'll look into these kinds of styles in arrangers.

I would love to hear demos of arrangers playing Baroque/Classical music. They're hard to find.

That is a terrific style, and as far as I know the player did no overdubs...he might have been using a multipad, but in Variation D of the style there are both trumpet (in PHR1) and orchestral oboe (in PHR2) playing counter melodies.

What impressed me most, Mike, was that the performer was doing the tune basically "live", although style play does provide much of the background, and the skill involved, more or less, consists of hitting the proper chords at exactly the right time whilst changing registration and adding or turning off style parts. So it's a definite skill set.

And, for a mid-range arranger, the S910 sounded very good, indeed. Sometimes people get caught up in the quality (or not) of the actual sounds...I'm more impressed by an overall performance.

Ian

Yes, Ian, the performer is very good, and he makes it look easy.

As far as quality sounds go, most would agree that the Tyros series is tops with its Super Articulation voices, but I've heard many demos where the performers did not have a good ear for music, hence making the Tyros sound awful.

No doubt he is both skilled in playing and perfectly managing all the buttons at the right point of time.
What I stumbled over was the slow oboe counter melody from 1:23 on (and later again), not the fast counter movements, which are part of the style and based on the chords played. After watching it again more closely, I see him playing both trumpet and counter melody oboe with the right hand. To realize this, it is necessary to set the oboe to only sound for the lower of two keys pressed and the trumpet to only sound for the upper of two keys pressed simultaneously. Is this possible with the S910?

Rosetree, perhaps you could contact the performer for that video clip of the S910 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvRDxVLogHRDaQMlKQAoplA and he could give you the details?

I don't have access to an S910 to experiment with the RH keyboard section being split into two sections, although I'm pretty sure that it is possible...it's also possible to set each RH voice to mono individually with different portamento rates/octaves/effects etc., but I'm sure the competitor's arrangers also have similar features..

I very nearly bought my demo S910 (I liked it more than the subsequent model, the S950), but I was offered a great deal on a Tyros4 upon my retirement, so, of course, I took it immediately. The S910 is a very powerful arranger, which, unfortunately (through my experience as a former clinician) is rarely used to its full potential by most users.

Of course, we might say that about arranger users of all brands, not just Yamaha. In any case, it pays to dig in and learn the instrument's full potential, rather than trading up every two to three years just for a few new features and perhaps some newer styles.

Ian

Ian, I'm curious to know why you preferred the PSR-S910 more than the PSR-S950?

Here's a very beautiful and inspiring demo of Handel's Largo played with a Kurzweil PC88.

Here are more Strings and orchestral demos by various players:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE6eYVRj8t4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE6eYVRj8t4 (orchestral starts at 3:19)

http://fr.audiofanzine.com/rack-numerique/roland/integra-7/forums/t.506149,commentaires-sur-la-news-roland-integra-7,post.7034268.html
(Roland SRX-06 vs. East West Symphonic Orchestra)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vYWmN7ySXA&list=UUFnuH95hBZs-u837hQLK1yw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=o5y0Y-KIMAQ#at=38

How about Bach's "Badinerie" played on a Ketron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1dc3ebUPwg

and a Yamaha PSR-S910?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iScSzVSnox0

The Ketron version is outstanding. It shows again how the number of clicks and likes on Youtube has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the performance - some very average Tyros performances get 300,000 views and thousands of likes, this one only gets 4,000 views and a few likes...

The Ketron version does sound more like a Baroque period piece. The Yamaha has a modern sound to it because of the drum track.

Also keep in mind the the Ketron player often uses parts he prerecords, as he states himself. Here's an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yycFW1_V0U&list=UUZ1VsxhnlrTgzb8Ez7QT_5g

Compare it to the Yamaha Tyros 5 version which, as far as I'm concerned, is just an internal style:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALpBpqrHgws

My remark was a more general one about the hype of a lot of Tyros videos with average performances, compared to someone like this Ketron player, who is really skilled. The Ketron Badinerie demo both has very good sounds AND the player shows good skills in both hands, playing fast movements precisely with the left hand also, no matter if there are pre-recorded tracks in addition. I think pre-recorded tracks are ok as long as you do as much as you can with both hands live.
IMO, the last two links you posted don't show any playing skills, neither in the Ketron nor in the Tyros case. You are right that in these examples the Tyros is more live and uses a style only, but there is absolutely nothing difficult to play here (although from other videos I know that this player is good, too). It's more about the sounds of the instruments, and in this James Last example I prefer the Tyros 5 sounds.

Thank you, Rosetree, for your experienced view point.

I guess the best way to try and decide which keyboard we like best is to try them in a local store (if we find them, that is). However, it certainly helps to get opinions from more knowledgeable players.

Yes, it's important to play it yourself. Luckily, I live in a densely populated region with one of Europe's largest music stores only 50 miles away.
I guess I am experienced as a player in general, but not much regarding arranger keyboards, I've been much more into synthesizers. The only arrangers I've had are/were a Yamaha Electone organ from the 80s, a GEM WS2 and, since 2011, a Roland BK-7m.

Mike, my reasons may not be common for everyone, regarding liking the S910 over the S950 as the latter is a terrific instrument with some decent upgrades (for some, however) over the former.

The S910 felt much the same to me as my Tyros4...just one of those special instruments that had everything I needed, and devoid of relatively less useful features like audio drum based styles which have very limited editing ( I do a lot of style creating/editing) and possessing the most usable sounds.

The S950 offered only more SA sounds (no SA2) and the SA sounds on the S910 covered all the bases for me. Styles were basically the same as S950 (with the exception of the aforementioned audio drum based styles) and since I only use the Vocal Harmony/mic input for vocoding and as an audio input (for audio recording) for my buddy's electric guitar (or my CS-01 mono synth) the basics were all I needed.

I went to the Tyros4 because of the the more substantial build quality, the FSX keybed (with aftertouch) and the SA2 sounds, which are another whole level (to my ears) above SA voices. Plus, the drawbar organ section and internal rotary were another notch up on the scale, and, since I have the expansion card, I can load in more sounds.

Of course, getting a great deal on the T4's price sure helped.

I suspect the next S-series will address any issues with the present S950 as the S910 did with the earlier S900.

Anyway, that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

Ian

Thank you, Ian, for your helpful and detailed response.

Would you say that the actual SOUND quality is the same, or better on the PSR-S950, compared to the PSR-S910 (without taking into consideration its speakers, because I've heard they're better)?

Mike, I think the S950 sounds a tad sharper, or maybe a little more detailed but the "quality" I would term different rather than better.

I really liked the S910's warmer sound, and of course, its lack of any gimmicks...just an honest little arranger, but still very powerful.

I strive for a warmer sound on my Tyros4 as well, but that's just my preference, and also because of the types of music I play.

What is an absolute bargain, if you don't need Vocal harmony, is the new PSR-S750, which is essentially a PSR-S910 (minus the VH) in the newer style black cabinet, and using the exact same amplification as the S950.

It would have been my next choice if I hadn't been able to get a new S910 or the deal on the Tyros4.

Ian

That's good info to know. Thanks again, Ian!

I just checked Yamaha's website, and compared the two. I'd lean towards the S950 simply because of the 89 extra sounds (24 being Super Articulation voices), and 83 extra styles.

Plus, the color screen on the S950 makes it nicer to look at!

Yes, Mike, the S950 has a great looking screen (the S910's is color and very legible as well), although some people find the viewing angle awkward, and wish it was a tilt/adjustable one.

Also, my biggest disappointment with the S950, aside from the audio drum based styles, was that there were no SA2 voices at all. I suspect they weren't implemented due to the S950's keyboard which has a fairly shallow throw (compared to that of Tyros FSX) and no aftertouch, and SA2 voices work best with a keyboard designed to get the most out of them.

Hopefully we'll see both a new keyboard action and at least a few SA2 voices on the S950's replacement, and perhaps some sort of tilting adjustable screen.

The S950's extra styles weren't much of a concern to me as there are hundreds of Yamaha styles at PSR Tutorial taken from the other models in the line, both new and old, and these are exceptionally well converted to work in the S910.

What keyboard are you using at present? Are you thinking of upgrading?

Ian

Hi, Ian. You seem very knowledgeable about the different keyboards, and I thank you for taking the time to help me!

I have a Yamaha Motif XF6 which I like very much. When I bought it about 2 1/2 years ago, I was convinced I'd get the Tyros 4. However, despite my wife's blessing to go ahead with (for me) a very substantial outlay of cash, I just couldn't justify spending all that money. So instead, I bought the Motif XF (which was exactly half the price of the Tyros 4) thinking that I'd one day get an arranger to go along with it.

I don't consider myself a musician. I only play a little bit, by ear. That's why I always liked the idea of an arranger keyboard, which would not require me to play arpeggios with my left hand (something that I don't know how to do). Plus, I like the idea of a full band or orchestra backing me up, without having to record up to 16 tracks myself on the Motif. Most of the time, I just want to sit and play. However, at times, I really do like the ability to choose the different arpeggios on the Motif.

If only the Motif would also have auto-accompaniment!

These are the things I would love to have:

1) the best acoustic sounds
(either keep my Motif, or get Tyros 5 if my budget will permit, or an Integra-7)

2) the best orchestral sounds
(a Kurzweil or an Integra-7, or a sound library for my Motif, like Garritan Personal Orchestra)

3) an arranger
(a Tyros 5, or the PSR-S950, or Korg PA900, or a BK-7m)

This is where I'm at in my thinking at the moment.