Last Saturday I played a job where my niece sang with me. She lives in Nashville, where she got a degree in music business management, is an amazing talent and very knowledgeable about the industry.
However, she was totally amazed watching me make music with the arranger. She had no idea anything like that existed. When she works alone she uses pre-recorded tracks (karaoke really) that she has either had custom made or has purchased and edited. She didn't know this option existed. She told me that in Nashville, you saw either 4-6 piece bands, or guys playing guitar and singing alone.
Last night, there was an almost equally-talent young lady, about 25, playing electric piano and singing in the lounge, while I was playing in the dining room.
She took a break and walked in to listen to me. She told me she works in a recording studio during the daytime and has been performing as a "single" for about a year, having grown up singing and playing piano in her church. Anyway, like my niece she was totally amazed at the arranger technology. She wanted to know how the background was generated, how the vocal harmony worked, etc.
She watched me for quite a while and finally said she still didn't understand all of it, but she wanted one.
My point is that I believe very few people, musicians or otherwise, have any idea of what modern arrangers are, or that they even exist. Many who see us playing the keyboard, assume we are playing along with tracks of some sort.
Also many remember the earlier cheesy Casios and Yamahas of 20 years ago, with one-finger chords and 4-note polyphony. Toys really. But they don't equate them with what we have now.
Question is are we a dying breed, or are we cutting edge technologists? Answer may be yes to both.

I find what your saying in the ignorance of the audiences and other fellow musicians who know nothing to what an Arranger KB can do & you can't blame them. Why should they know about Arranger KB's in the first place other then "WOW all that music comes out of that thing?" It is an art form to a degree using cutting edge technology.
But it's the "Talent" playing one that sets us apart. There is a place for the Arranger KB in dwindling live situations although the majority of live performance music is so branched out and with so many ways of making music today using so many means just be happy there is a small slice for us arranger KB players in the right situations. Where ever it goes I'm happy I was there in the very beginning after 20 years in bands playing keyboards/organs /etc.. discovering & playing arrangers in the early 80's up till today with an Arranger KB.
If they never made another model I'd be happy with what we have now..

The arranger, in my case, a Yamaha Tyros4, has been an indispensable tool in the recording studio where I can lay down a complete and high quality bed track in the time it takes to play through the tune...it's like a secret weapon or Swiss Army Knife.

Using the arranger "live" has literally guaranteed me work in places that are looking for something a little bit more than simply solo piano or guitar.

Like Donny, if they never made another model I'd be happy with what I have now.

Ian

Arrangers are great when used as a tool, not a prop or excuse for lack of ability.

I use them when appropriate, but there's something fulfilling about "going it alone", especially at high visibility venues.


R.

Don

I think its a catch 22 situation. There are very few arranger players out there so other musicians are not exposed to them. For the majority its have a totally live band, or part of a band with tracks, or do a solo with tracks. Everyone seems to follow the same path. I've educated a few players here about Arranger and have had the same reponses you had.
I'm falling in line too with the backing tracks but hopefully I'm still doing enough with Styles and playing live with SMF's as well as singing to keep it at a higher level.

Yes Russ I agree, going it alone is very nice but opprotunities to do so are few and far between.

I asked the owner of the venue where I work most why he was hiring more guitar player/vocalists now. He told me that there just wasn't anyone else around like me! He can't justify a full band, so one or sometimes two pieces will have to do. The good side is that he is one of the handful of upper classes venues that even have live music five nights a week.
There is a photo on the wall of four of us "one-man bands" sitting together. My friend HankB, Bill Bush, Billy Ledbetter and me. I'm the only one still alive. Last man standing.
It is necessary to a wide variety of music there, standards, blues, oldies, country, etc. The younger artists tend to specialize in one area.
There are about three or four high-end restaurants that have piano bars, five casinos and one honky-tonk night club and that's it.
Of course you can find a "jam night" to go to just about any night of the week. If you want to play for free and pay for your own drinks. And don't get me started on the karaoke places. Again, come and sing for free and spend money.
No thanks.

Like many of the forum members here, I began performing with an instrument other than an arranger keyboard. I kicked off with a guitar, a six string acoustic that I purchased for $20 in a pawn shop right after I got out of the Navy. At the same location I purchased a 100-watt amp, a beat up Shure mic, and a mic stand. I played some of the local blood and guts saloons, made hundreds of dollars a year, sometimes I managed to get a band job and split the same amount with four other guys - it was an amazing time in my life. I WAS A STAR! Well, kinda.

Then one day, while in a local music store buying some new guitar strings, the owner, who is still a good friend, showed me a Roland drum machine - WOW! This thing was incredible, and the owners of the bars I performed at said it really added to the performances. A few years later, I was in the same music store, and the owner introduced me to an arranger keyboard. He said, "You're gonna love this thing." He was right. It was a 61 key arranger, had 12 styles, and six voices. I was blown away, I used it in conjunction with the guitar and the audiences all responded favorably.

I don't remember the year, but the same store brought in some newer keyboards, one of which was a PSR-500. WOW! This thing was incredible. Then I purchased a big Apex stand, a triple decker, and placed a Roland G-800 on the bottom tier. It was a monster, really sounded good, but really heavy. I had that Roland for about a year when the PSR-5700 became available. It too was pretty heavy, about 51 pounds, sounded great and there were loads of styles available for it from a British guy, whom I believe still sells style files.

As the years progressed, I continued to upgrade arrangers and sound systems till I'm where I am now. I believe DonM is correct in that we were cutting edge technologists and still are. When I head south next month, I'm fairly confident that there were be a lot of have guitar will travels guys there, and if it is like the last time I was there, I'll likely be the only keyboard player on Marathon Key. Come to think of it, I didn't see any arranger keyboards in Key West either. There were a couple bands that had Motifs, but no arrangers, and no OMB arranger entertainers either. Are we a dying breed? I hope not, but only time will tell.

Cheers,

Gary

The reason most pros don’t know about arrangers is that they are not marketed to pro musicians and studios by the manufactures, as they are not (And never have been) designed for professional use, but for the home hobby player who wants to play music with minimum effort and at a reasonable price. (A task to which they are entirely suited for)

If you look at the professional pro musicians then they always seek out all possible options that may give them an edge in song creation, (Some songs have even used a stylephone) and these musicians you will find do know about arrangers, and while they may not use them in anger or final production, (Other equipment being far more suitable) as a scratchpad they are a brilliant piece of kit, thus giving these musicians the edge over others.

Technology wise arrangers are antique compared to the professional equipment out there, but they are all that is required for the job they are designed for.

Bill

Its not about the why now...

Its about what will be...

Personally i can see the best parts of arrangers being morphed into the ToTl workstations.... For example Yamaha might add things like SA2 voices, organ mode, styles play, ensemble play to the upcomming motif replacement..... Combined with other new things like internal Karma, yamaha mobile sequencer, the return of other synthesis forms and VST integration, Yamaha might be ready to convince the pro players that they can have a whole studio on the stage or in the home...

I hear Korg has something in the works like that.

I'm in no rush just wait and see....and get your wallets ready....what ever it is ain't gonna be cheap!!
just sayin'

Hi Don: I did not take the time to read all the replies you received on this topic... but I've noticed the same phenomenon about lack of understanding (or even the existence) of Arranger Keyboards by so many in the music industry.

I'll sneak back in tomorrow after my chess session down on the square here and read the thoughts of the other participants.

Thanks for bringing this up. If enough people understood what an arranger can do... who knows how many would be coming down the assembly lines at Korg, Yamaha, Roland and the others.

I'm guessing that you are gaining your strength back. Let's hope so.

Later,

Dave Rice

To my knowledge, I’m the only arranger player around these parts who plays out live. There are lots of bar bands and student hangouts. My musical buddies, that I’m around all the time, know about my activities, but rarely ask questions about it. That group is comprised of either big band jazz-type players, or pure country players. We drink a lot of coffee and socialize often; however, they’ve not seen my two arrangers, or seem to care. I tell them how great the Tyros 5 sounds and what it will do. I get the feeling they don’t want to know.

I just had another thought...it's starting to get painful btw.
Over the years I've played in some venues where some pretty famous musicians and vocalists have visited.
What I'm going to say now should not be taken as boasting, but as another perspective on the acceptance, or lack thereof, of arranger play.
I used to keep a guitar available for James Burton. He has come to sit in with me often over quite a few years. He just loves to play, and doesn't question what is generating the songs. He just knows it is good enough for him to enjoy picking with it.
Bonnie Owens spent an entire evening singing harmony with me. She became a good friend until her death.
Kix Brooks did 5 or 6 songs with me.
Cole Vosbury and his equally-talented dad, Robin, have both worked with me. And even Cole's grandmother, Nita Lynn, an old-time recording artist, has sung with me.
My good friend Dean Mathis of the Newbeats worked with me for quite a number of years. Still does occasionally. We can re-create "Bread and Butter" almost exactly as it was done in the studio years ago, using arranger technology and vocal harmony processing. I do the high voice with pitch and gender shift. Dean does the vocal unison parts.
Brenda Lee did a song with me.
Willie HIMSELF told me he loved the sound. He looked at my keyboard and said it was great that it sounded so good.
Joe Stampley walked into the club while I was in the middle of doing "All These Things". I nearly swallowed the mic from embarrassment, but he gave me a thumbs up and sat down and listened for a while.
My point is simply this: None of these people had any idea what technology was involved, but they can see I am playing keys and they approve of the result. Would they ever perform this way? Of course not, they don't have to, and anyway they don't know how but they don't look down their noses at me because I do!
I think arranger play is totally valid. Now if you get up there and play one-finger chords and one-note melodies with the wrong styles and then sing badly (by that I mean even worse than I do), the other end of the arranger spectrum is exposed. Just as would a bad guitar player strumming the wrong chords would do to HIS "art".
As several have stated often here, the primary reason that arrangers evolved was for home use, particularly as the popularity of home organ use declined. It wasn't that long ago where the majority of homes had a piano or organ, at least in many parts of the world. Not true now. Arrangers have not only filled that void, but have become an instrument suitable for professional entertainment, at least on some levels.
I don't want to sound like I'm defending arrangers. Shouldn't have to because this IS an arranger forum. Just food for thought I guess. If you have read this far, you must be interested though.
One more thing. . . some of the best use of arrangers by performers that I've seen have been by guys from Mexico. There is a large chain of Mexican restaurants headquartered here and a number of these performers have come up and worked in them. I have yet to hear one that didn't sound really good. Most had really old gear, but they made it sound great. The latest one I heard was this summer. He was playing a PSR2000, and had an ancient Korg synth on to of it for extra sounds. I'm rambling. That's all.

Really? Thats a rumor i have been hearing for a very long time...

I love it when you talk dirty!

Cheers,

Gary

There was discussion of it on the Korg forum by Asena, who I believe helps Korg develop things.
www.korgforums.com/

Certainly nothing definite, but still it's interesting to contemplate what might happen. I don't think I will change again, but . . .??

I play an arranger in ANY appropriate format, regardless of who's listening. It's the quality of the music that matters.

Where arrangers get a bad rap is when really bad players use them in public. Then, they are pegged as less than stellar players and the instrument is criticized.

GUESS WHAT? IT "AIN'T" the instrument. An arranger is like a capo. Mostly, capos are used by low end players to use the few chords they know (finger positions) to get to the key they need.

But, a good player who needs an open bass note (like Vince Gill, for instance) can use one and actually improve his performance.

Since most who use capo's are mediocre players, capo's get a bad rap, as do the people who use them. I don't even own one.
But, I'd be damned if I would question the use of one by someone of Gill's ability and stature.

Again, an arranger used at a tool, not a crutch is a good thing.


Russ

Why are we defending arranger kbs?

Not really defending, but I believe it is relevant to how the future of arrangers might go, and that has to do with how they are perceived by both the public and other musicians.

Its all about how they are marketed thru the last 30 years since there inception...and that has been horrible at best otherwise many more people would be playing them worldwide & be more educated in what they can do,.. ......many more stores would stock all models, arranger companies wouldn't have gone out of business either like Technics, Gem, etc,.., and the live music industry would be using them quite more then it has up to now.
Now with new musical technology being invented every day the chances of arrangers making a comeback resurgence is minimal at best....for arranger KB's sadly it's time has passed.

I was asked to play at a condo meeting. No tables or dance floor, it was a meeting. Things that have been said here are so very true. Knowing this I took 20 minutes of the hour to explain what my Kn7000 was about.

I started with a drum beat and then added the each accompaniment part while explaining.
Last thing I did was to start the rhythm and played C chord; and then I walked away. They were smiling but that did not last too long – a look of question came.

I stepped back to my keyboard and explained to them that without me the keyboard would continue to play just what they were hearing and nothing more. I played the intro to New York New York and began to sing. I received a stand ovation. These people now understood what an arranger keyboard is all about – and they loved it.

I have seen this in malls and flea markets; people listened, they smiled, they were amazed, and many bought one to take home. Yes I agree, people do not know what an arranger can do.

John C.

John, I've been providing a short demo for my audiences for the past decade - smartest damned thing I've ever done, and a great marketing approach.

Thanks,

Gary

I could watch Marco Parisi play a Korg Arranger all day and all night. That's because he's a great musician that is exciting to watch. My problem is that I don't see ANYONE ELSE playing an Arranger KB that way......proving once again that it's the keyboardist, not the keyboard. I'll go out on a limb here and say that I don't believe that the average Arranger player has the same level of musical competence as say, his solo piano playing counterpart. That's because it takes less time and training to produce an acceptable product for public consumption. BUT.....and this is my opinion only, like bread-machine bread and bread made the 'old fashioned' way, there is a difference in quality. Nothing really wrong with the 'bread-machine' bread, it just doesn't hack it for me (and a lot of other people). Compound that by using a pre-packaged bread-machine mix, and now I'm REALLY turned off.

I think Russ has it summed up perfectly, "an arranger used at a tool, not a crutch is a good thing". As an instrument, aside from being grossly overpriced, it's no better or worse than any other. It's HOW it's normally used (and by whom) that draws the criticism. The fact that you see so few in professional venues speaks volumes (as far as what MUSICIANS think of them; audiences, particularly today's audiences, tend to be less critical (conditioned as they have become to 'live music' alternatives).

Just my opinion, of course. Love my BK7m/drum machine for practice, rehearsal, and personal fun. For one thing, it makes you much more disciplined with keeping in time.

chas

It's the style repetition that alienates most musicians with arrangers...

Each year I go to THE Keyboard Festival here in the UK and each year the audience attending gets a year older - no youngsters at all - so maybe some more subtle marketing needed to aid this dying art.
http://www.keyboard-cavalcade.co.uk/inde...ing-spectacular

I don’t know about others. All I know is that I bought my first arranger after being exposed them somewhere. Don’t recall exactly. But, it was some years ago. Some of the analyses here is too deep for me, although interesting reading. I don’t worry about the historical, social, economic relationship of arrangers to other instruments, music in general, or whatever. I play my little gigs and hope that the clients are satisfied with the product. So far, so good. That’s the issue for me---and, to get paid. I don’t get uptight about the need to prove anything or make some kind musical statement to anyone. Most of my patrons could care less (probably) about the past or future of arrangers. They just want to have a good time at the party, or whatever the occasion.

+1

Of course the level of proficiency is of utmost importance. But the vast majority of non-arranger musicians have no idea the technology even exists. I think some of us are assuming most musicians look down on arrangers. I disagree. Most musicians are totally ignorant about high-end arrangers and don't have an opinion. My original point was that they don't know what they are hearing. It either sounds like good music or it doesn't. Your level of expertise determines what they hear. If it sounds rinky-dink, then you need to learn to play better and/or examine the capabilities of your gear.
In past years I would often have drummers or bass players mention that I was costing them a job. I've got news for them; if they were any good they wouldn't be worried about my taking their job. Most all my jobs have been in venues where they wouldn't have live music at all if they had to pay a really good 4 or 5 piece band. But I don't hear that anymore. They are now used to hearing background tracks, Ka####e, etc.
Years ago, before arrangers were invented, when I was playing just organ, using foot pedals, later adding a drum machine, it was easy to find work. By today's standard that would sound hokey and old-fashioned.
There are thousands of piano or guitar players using pre-recorded tracks to do one-man acts. The arranger lets us have so much more flexibility. I can changes songs on the fly without missing a beat, extend a song as long as I want, turn it into a medley of songs, make a song into a totally different genre, etc. Just like a five-piece band could, except I don't have to teach everyone else in the band.
I think I'm just about the last person in this entire area to do a successful arranger act at a professional level.
It's interesting that none of the guitar or piano singles can take my jobs, and the ones that hear me, without fail, want me to explain the technology. I am glad to oblige, but I make it look very hard.
I can pick up their guitar or sit at their keyboard and pretty much do what they do. They CAN'T do what I do.
As DNJ says, why am I defending arrangers? I hope nobody else around here ever discovers their true capabilities.
This forum and a few others are the only places where I can go to discuss arrangers with informed users.
I understand that in many European and other countries, arrangers have much more wide-spread use and acceptance, but in the U.S. this little niche in the entertainment world has kept me from having to get a REAL JOB for many, many years and I will continue to embrace the technology for a few more years. I hope.

By the way, none of what I said above has anything to do with venues that feature, for instance, jazz groups, where people got to see and appreciate the interaction and expertise of accomplished groups of players. There have been a number of these established around here. None has lasted though, and it's a shame, but it's not what the majority of people appreciate.
There are a couple of blues jam type places that are semi-successful. Again, I would be out of place in those venues, except if just sat in and played organ or a single instrument there.
I WOULD drive to Atlanta or Lexington to hear Russ and Chas jam together though!! Maybe they would let me take one ride, if the song were simple enough.

SHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

If there is any one player here who would be welcome on my bandstand, it would be my friend Don.

He'd not miss a beat. Good looking, talented and humble, too!

It'd be like Mutt and Jeff in a duo (LOL).

Good guy on ALL levels!

Russ

I have always made a point of playing with the very best players I could convince to play with me. One reason was to learn from them, but the other more dominant reason was to 'ride their coattails', to use THEIR superior talents to cover up my own musical deficiencies. So, in that regard, I am doing exactly the same thing as many arranger players. One difference, though, is that you have to bring enough to the table to get them to perform with you whereas an arranger KB is much more tolerant about who can play with it. You need only shell out a few grand to Guitar Center, sneak it past the wife, plug it in, select 'one-finger mode', and voilà', you're off to the races, baby; an instant 'pro'.

As far as Arrangers and Jazz, strange as it seems, I think 'Big Band Jazz' is one of the things Arrangers do best (in Style mode). The problem, though, is how many Big Band type numbers can you do before they all start sounding the same. Of course you can then switch to other (less effective) styles but by then the bloom is off the rose. Exceptional vocals, however, can make most of these negatives go away but how many exceptional vocalist do we have here playing arranger KB? I count maybe 5-6 here on SZ, speaking of which, hope Joe Ayala is recuperating well; he's one of the best.

Now as far as DonM driving to Atlanta to hear me play, I would definitely advise him to donate that gas money to charity (preferably Vets); Lexington, yes; Atlanta, no.

Happy holidays, everyone. Drive safely going back and forth to those holiday gigs. Remember, the life you save could be MINE.



chas

Chas, Veterans, St. Jude Hospital and the Shriners are the ONLY charities I support anymore! You and Russ probably spend more for lunch than I make in a week! I do appreciate the contributions and help you both give to so many!
My drive to work is 20 miles, but it's not like driving 20 miles in Atlanta!
Merry Christmas! I figure that even if you don't believe in God, you believe in Santa Claus!!

I LOVE Santa Claus. He'll bring you anything your credit card will cover and you don't even have to be good .

chas

"As far as Arrangers and Jazz, strange as it seems, I think 'Big Band Jazz' is one of the things Arrangers do best (in Style mode). The problem, though, is how many Big Band type numbers can you do before they all start sounding the same. Of course you can then switch to other (less effective) styles but by then the bloom is off the rose. "

You do exactly the same as any other creative musician would do Chas .You start to play different chord substitutions and progressions to take the same song and make it more interesting. How many times have you heard "autumn leaves" but each year some creative type takes the same song and twists it ever so slightly so it does not sound the same each time it played .

Most owners of these keyboards (arranger keyboards ) don't even realise that the style will change according to the chord substitutions they use ,so the same style can have multiple colours in terms of bass lines guitar riffs etc just by playing more exotic chords than just major or minor ones . And if you ever get tired of expanding your chording skills You can change some of the instrumentation, change the drum kit or the bass or rhythm guitar , and when you get tired of that you can start to copy and paste elements of other styles into the old style . Our friend Ian calls the "Frankenstyles " !

You can create many interesting and actually great styles within the same genre by mixing and matching styles . And when you get tired of that you might actually want to try to reprogram bits of the style maybe starting on the bass and drums , and when you get tired of that.........

Learn a new song ! Had my keyboard 10 years and the rose is still blooming and I have not purchased a new style yet from the thousands out there ignoring the thousands of free ones available .

Tomorrow I am taking part in a carol service ,the same service I have been doing for the last 5 years and pretty much the same carols but each year they are done differently . Some times with a full live band , sometimes myself with singers and guitarist , sometimes just my arranger and choir .

It's only our creativity that might be limited . You said correct at the top of this post . It's not the keyboard it's definitely the musician .

In my experience, quite often, very accomplished players of the more traditional keyboard instruments like Acoustic Piano, Rhodes and Organ, buy (or try out) an Arranger Keyboard and have a difficult time adjusting to the different set of skills (especially left hand/chording) required to play an Arranger Keyboard in style play.

Often these accomplished players want to play the arranger, in style play, at or near the same level of proficiency as they already have on their traditional keyboard, or at least at the level of some of the more advanced arranger players here on SZ, but, for some reason, maybe something as simple as being set in their ways, they just don't get around to investing the time and effort needed to acquire these skills.

For some reason, organ players have an easier time adapting, probably due the similarity in the way left hand chords are played...many piano players have a real hard time keeping that left hand from jumping around too much and triggering too many notes, thus confusing the Style Engine.

There is a reason the average Arranger Keyboard has 300-500 styles and several chord recognition modes, as well as buttons to vary the style patterns being played...the instrument's main intended use is style play, whether it be for "live" play, or recording projects, although the instrument's sequencer and sound editing features allow it to play the role of a Workstation Keyboard as well.

So, unless the accomplished player (but novice to Arranger Keyboards) learns these skills, the instrument gets returned, is stuck away in a corner, or, at the very most, is used as an extra keyboard/drum machine/MIDI file player...hardly exploiting its full potential, and becoming more than a bit of a disappointment to the player.

So, as Spalding says above, it's not the keyboard, it's definitely the musician.

And, as far as the alleged "stigma" attached to the Arranger Keyboard...well, all I can say is that it's pretty bad if one would allow the opinions of other people (musicians or otherwise) to dictate what musical instrument they should or should not play.

Ian