Are there other keyboards, other than arrangers, that can play styles? I know full size keyboards such as Clavinova's can. But what about synthesizers...workstations etc?
Again, this is just a question of curiosity.
Tx
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#397764 - 01/05/1503:52 PMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: guitpic1]
DonM
Senior Member
Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Well, by definition (I think) Arrangers are keyboards that play styles--real-time backgrounds that let you "arrange" songs on the fly. If a synth or workstation plays styles, it is also an arranger. Clavinovas are arrangers in big cabinets. A lot of the distinction is just the terminology used. You can, of course, use an arranger module such as Roland BK7 or Ketron Audya 5 or Midjay, and control them with any midi-capable keyboard.
#397766 - 01/05/1504:35 PMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: guitpic1]
abacus
Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5392
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Although they weren’t called styles back then, it all started in the late 60s/early 70s when manufactures started adding auto accompaniment features to their organs, eventually the arranger keyboard developed which gave you all the easy play features of the organ in a light and cheap keyboard package.
Styles are in essence just Midi Loops so can be included on any electronic keyboard instrument, however because of the limited capabilities of arrangers (Just one keyboard with minimal real time controls) styles have become paramount to get a decent sounding performance out of them. (Manufactures have always designed arrangers for the Home Hobby Market rather than pro musicians, as it allows them to sound great with minimal effort)
Hope this helps
Bill
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#397768 - 01/05/1506:03 PMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: guitpic1]
travlin'easy
Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Bill, doesn't everyone want to sound great with minimal effort? And, as I've stated many times in the past, what exactly defines a pro musician? I mean, the last time I checked I was still getting paid more than anyone in my region for playing music and singing. So, whether I use a guitar, fiddle, harmonica, or a kazoo, if I get paid, I'm a pro musician/entertainer. If I did this for fun and didn't get paid, I guess I would not be a pro, but what the Hell do I know? I've only been making my full time living at this for just over 20 years.
I sincerely believe manufacturers design arranger keyboards for the largest and most diverse audiences - not some tiny fragment of the music playing world. If they didn't, they would not be in business very long. The percentage of so-called pro musicians that purchase ALL musical instruments is so infinitesimally small that no one in their right mind would bother to target that consumer group. Take a close look at guitars. Walk into any music store and the vast majority of consumers purchasing guitars are young people ranging 15 to 45 years of age - not pro guitar players who probably average 65 years of age. I would venture a guess that the percentage of pro guitar players that purchases guitars in a music shop would be less than 1 in 1,000, and that's being conservative. Same goes for drums, saxophones, trumpets, pianos, you name it - it's all the same. And, those so called pros always seem to be looking for some sort of discounted price. Who in their right mind would cater to them?
In reality, all arranger keyboards that are played by someone for money are pro keyboards. It's not rocket science - it's a fact. Whether or not the keyboard is red, black, green or bright orange has no bearing on anything. Neither does it make a bit of difference if it weighs 200 pounds or just 20 pounds. Who really cares if it has built-in speakers or not? No one in the audiences, that's for sure, and the audiences are the folks who essentially pay the tab. So, there really is no such thing as a pro arranger keyboard, anymore than there is a pro organ, trumpet, cello, tuba, harmonica, etc... It all depends upon the player, which has always been the case. And, we all want to sound fantastic with the least amount of effort - at least I would like to sound better than Uncle Dave or Don Mason, but that ain't gonna happen. Well, at least I'm prettier than they are.;)
Gary
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#397772 - 01/05/1506:18 PMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: guitpic1]
ianmcnll
Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I love using "styles" (Roland coined the term many years ago)...especially since they can be edited to suit my manner of play...using styles also allows the player the freedom to use his own chord substitutions, and, today's arrangers with their excellent chord recognition (including inversions) really give the player very few restrictions.
We've come a long way from the boom-ticky-ticky style engines of yesteryear.
Midi files definitely have their uses, and although I'm not one to use them, they are unquestionably another tool in the arranger's box of tricks.
And, the Arranger Keyboard is just another tool in the keyboard player's kit....I call it the "Swiss Army Knife" of keyboards.
The Arranger Keyboard's biggest detractors and critics are usually players unable, unwilling, or too lazy to adapt to the playing style needed to bring the best out in the instrument.
As I was telling a friend earlier this evening, having done hundreds of clinics and demos I have learned that many competent (and usually well seasoned, and perhaps stuck in their ways) keyboard/piano/organ players can't adapt very well to the system needed to play an arranger in "style" mode...it's a combination of "dumbing down" whereas you have to play all chord types and inversions in a limited space, and "wisening up" in that you really have to know your chord voicings well in order to play anything reasonably complex.
At the same time you have to have the skill/knowledge to pick appropriate voices in the RH and play them with the proper inflections.
Witness musicians like Martin Harris play the arranger like this:
and you quickly see and hear just how much power and expression the instrument is capable of giving the player...and Marty is a PLAYER!
One time the Arranger was basically for hobbyists, but not anymore...lots of pros have wisely adapted to the instrument...I know in my own case, it has brought me all kinds of work, both on stage, and in the studio.
#397773 - 01/05/1507:06 PMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: guitpic1]
Ketron_AJ Moderator
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3602
Loc: Middletown, DE
Well written.
Today's arrangers are not as redundant as yesterdays, and in the hands of Martin above in full arranger play mode or partial arranger play mode as below with manual bass ....
... you can quickly see how home players or professionals can benefit from this amazing instrument.
Here is an example of a style that was designed around a specific song but flexible enough for use in other 6/8 style formatted songs ... being used in a studio by professionals:-
#397775 - 01/05/1507:32 PMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: guitpic1]
ianmcnll
Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Instead of "pro" and "amateur" (or "Home player"), I've always categorized players as "advanced", "beginner", or somewhere in between.
The term "pro", as Gary says above, simply means a person (or player) who is paid for his performance.
Some "pros" aren't even advanced players, but, due to a combination of "entertainer" skills, and, either being able to play enough good basic chords in one key (and use the transposer), or use SMF for most of the performance, they certainly manage to get paid (and sometimes very well) for their work and are quite successful.
I also know many "home players" who are incredibly talented and are monster players, but just don't want to perform in public or make performing their means of making money.
#397790 - 01/06/1503:31 AMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: travlin'easy]
abacus
Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5392
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By: travlin'easy
Bill, doesn't everyone want to sound great with minimal effort? And, as I've stated many times in the past, what exactly defines a pro musician? I mean, the last time I checked I was still getting paid more than anyone in my region for playing music and singing. So, whether I use a guitar, fiddle, harmonica, or a kazoo, if I get paid, I'm a pro musician/entertainer. If I did this for fun and didn't get paid, I guess I would not be a pro, but what the Hell do I know? I've only been making my full time living at this for just over 20 years.
I sincerely believe manufacturers design arranger keyboards for the largest and most diverse audiences - not some tiny fragment of the music playing world. If they didn't, they would not be in business very long. The percentage of so-called pro musicians that purchase ALL musical instruments is so infinitesimally small that no one in their right mind would bother to target that consumer group. Take a close look at guitars. Walk into any music store and the vast majority of consumers purchasing guitars are young people ranging 15 to 45 years of age - not pro guitar players who probably average 65 years of age. I would venture a guess that the percentage of pro guitar players that purchases guitars in a music shop would be less than 1 in 1,000, and that's being conservative. Same goes for drums, saxophones, trumpets, pianos, you name it - it's all the same. And, those so called pros always seem to be looking for some sort of discounted price. Who in their right mind would cater to them?
In reality, all arranger keyboards that are played by someone for money are pro keyboards. It's not rocket science - it's a fact. Whether or not the keyboard is red, black, green or bright orange has no bearing on anything. Neither does it make a bit of difference if it weighs 200 pounds or just 20 pounds. Who really cares if it has built-in speakers or not? No one in the audiences, that's for sure, and the audiences are the folks who essentially pay the tab. So, there really is no such thing as a pro arranger keyboard, anymore than there is a pro organ, trumpet, cello, tuba, harmonica, etc... It all depends upon the player, which has always been the case. And, we all want to sound fantastic with the least amount of effort - at least I would like to sound better than Uncle Dave or Don Mason, but that ain't gonna happen. Well, at least I'm prettier than they are.;)
Gary
Hi Gary
I did not say an arranger cannot be used by a pro, just what that they were specifically designed for, (A real pro could get a great performance out of virtually any keyboard)
The main difference between a home hobby player and a pro musician is that, a home hobby player practices until he gets it right (With or without the easy play features) whereas a pro player practices until he can’t get it wrong. (Even if problems occur during the performance)
When your young (And easily impressionable) you usually want to sound like your idol, so you buy whatever he plays thinking you can do the same, however in most cases purchases find they can’t and so it gets put in the cupboard. (Manufactures know this so target this market) Arrangers came from the home hobby organ market and probably about 99% of arrangers sold go to this market, so it is not cost effective to add pro features to them for a 1% market.
The difference between a pro instrument and home instrument is the way they work, with a home unit you press a button and everything is done for you (Exact sound setups, styles, mixer setting etc.) whereas as a synth/workstation gives you high quality basics which you meld to their own style. (Listen to most arranger players and all you here is the same (Your just listening to the keyboard) whereas with a synth/workstation everybody sounds individual)
As usual there are always crossovers, but by and large the above is correct. If you listen to top musicians, they got there by being individual, not copying someone else. (Something that is very difficult (But not impossible) to do with an arranger as you just have one keyboard and minimal real time control)
Bill
_________________________
English Riviera: Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).
#397791 - 01/06/1503:42 AMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: ianmcnll]
abacus
Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5392
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
I love using "styles" (Roland coined the term many years ago)...especially since they can be edited to suit my manner of play...using styles also allows the player the freedom to use his own chord substitutions, and, today's arrangers with their excellent chord recognition (including inversions) really give the player very few restrictions.
We've come a long way from the boom-ticky-ticky style engines of yesteryear.
Midi files definitely have their uses, and although I'm not one to use them, they are unquestionably another tool in the arranger's box of tricks.
And, the Arranger Keyboard is just another tool in the keyboard player's kit....I call it the "Swiss Army Knife" of keyboards.
The Arranger Keyboard's biggest detractors and critics are usually players unable, unwilling, or too lazy to adapt to the playing style needed to bring the best out in the instrument.
As I was telling a friend earlier this evening, having done hundreds of clinics and demos I have learned that many competent (and usually well seasoned, and perhaps stuck in their ways) keyboard/piano/organ players can't adapt very well to the system needed to play an arranger in "style" mode...it's a combination of "dumbing down" whereas you have to play all chord types and inversions in a limited space, and "wisening up" in that you really have to know your chord voicings well in order to play anything reasonably complex.
At the same time you have to have the skill/knowledge to pick appropriate voices in the RH and play them with the proper inflections.
Witness musicians like Martin Harris play the arranger like this:
and you quickly see and hear just how much power and expression the instrument is capable of giving the player...and Marty is a PLAYER!
One time the Arranger was basically for hobbyists, but not anymore...lots of pros have wisely adapted to the instrument...I know in my own case, it has brought me all kinds of work, both on stage, and in the studio.
Ian
Hi Ian
Martin is a great player (I first saw him in the early 80s) as your video shows, however give him 2 keyboards and pedals and he just moves up to another level, as he no longer has to rely on the style for backing. (There is no substitute to seeing someone actually play the instrument (Without needing fancy backings) whether it be classics, great bass solos or jazz)
Bill
_________________________
English Riviera: Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).
#397792 - 01/06/1505:37 AMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: abacus]
ianmcnll
Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: abacus
Hi Ian
Martin is a great player (I first saw him in the early 80s) as your video shows, however give him 2 keyboards and pedals and he just moves up to another level, as he no longer has to rely on the style for backing. (There is no substitute to seeing someone actually play the instrument (Without needing fancy backings) whether it be classics, great bass solos or jazz)
Bill
I get your point Bill, as I was once a Yamaha Electone instructor (and course graduate) and played (and demoed) for many years using bass pedals and two manuals (in some cases, three), and yes, it does free up the player to some extent. I have a set of bass pedals (and a digital piano that stands in as a lower manual for my Tyros4) at the studio and sometimes use them when I don't want to work with a style.
However, even with bass pedals, the player is still dealing with, what is essentially, an on-board preset drum machine. Sure, editing is possible, but, if I'm going to be editing in the first place, then using a style is my "go to" method, especially since I can get so much out of them with all the editing tools on-board the instrument (and the plethora of donor styles available). Some of my custom styles have as many as seven variations (as opposed to the standard four-I reprogram the three intros as variations) and often I'll use two or more styles in series (usually when recording) to get even more variety. It is easy to do on today's instruments.
Plus, over the years I have picked up some excellent tips from the company's pro style creators, and the occasional PC based style editing tool, so, I guess, what I'm saying, especially in my case, is that it comes down to personal preference.
So, styles are generally my preferred way of recording/performing...I don't use them to color my songs, I create songs by using styles... they're a crucial part of what I do ... I don't, and have never, considered styles a crutch (or the easy way out) ... they're part of the art.
First, I was really after finding out if other types of keyboards(other than arrangers and keyboards like the Clavanova) played styles. I think Don did give me an answer there.
I really like what Ian has to say here...very true.
Some "pros" aren't even advanced players, but, due to a combination of "entertainer" skills, and, either being able to play enough good basic chords in one key (and use the transposer), or use SMF for most of the performance, they certainly manage to get paid (and sometimes very well) for their work and are quite successful.
If there's one thing I've learned helping to manage/book for our Dalton Opera house is that the one skill a pro really needs is the ability to entertain folks. The folks that we booked, that brought the biggest ticket sales/at the highest prices were folks that could really 'entertain' the crowd and most just used Karoke..and no one cared.
Re: keyboard skills. I'm one of those basic players that Ian mentioned...most folks I know have more skills than me. I'm a basic chord person.
Here's the interesting thing to me. I get more jobs playing the Tyros with my basic skills than I do playing mandolin and/or guitar. And I've been playing those two instruments most of my life.
I know the difference between a skilled keyboard player and a rookie. My brother has been playing piano as a teacher since he was a kid and now he is in his 60's. He does perform with his choirs but isn't interested in playing to other types of crowds...he can play circles around me.
So am I a professional keyboard player? If you count making money with it...maybe yes? In my mind I'm not a pro but my audiences sure don't seem to care.
What I have always been able to do(I believe anyway)is entertain and that's what gets you jobs in my book.
Recently I was asked to play a gig. I told the folks that I would be playing keyboard. They hesitated. "That's fine", I heard over the phone. "However, we want entertainment and singing". "We get all kinds of folks who just play keyboard".
So, in my book, regardless of instrument played or skill level, the pro's are the ones who are very skilled at entertaining.
Thanks for the thoughts.
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#397802 - 01/06/1509:20 AMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: guitpic1]
cgiles
Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By: guitpic1
So, in my book, regardless of instrument played or skill level, the pro's are the ones who are very skilled at entertaining.
Pro what? Pro entertainer, maybe. A Pro, at least in my mind, is someone who has mastered a skill to a level generally considered above the 'amateur' level. Too often I hear people use the reasoning that "if I make money doing it, I'm a Pro". Or, that if I'm able to 'entertain' an audience while sitting behind a keyboard I can barely play, that makes me a 'pro' musician. That is such BULL. That's just a way of deluding oneself while filing a void that most REAL pro's have absolutely no interest in. Most self-proclaimed "pro's" are able to accomplish this because they mostly perform in a non-competitive environment (ie. not competing against true professional musicians) in (less musically demanding) venues not courted by most professional musicians who are more interested in THE ART than how people might view them.
Down in our hearts, we all know what a true professional musician is (and you won't find very many playing arranger keyboards). Marco Parisi is a professional musician; Cory Henry is a professional musician; and there are literally THOUSANDS of others out there who play at that level. Few here play at that level. A housewife can walk into a bar and strip, and all the men will be highly appreciative and hugely entertained, but that doesn't make her a professional stripper (even if they toss her a couple of bucks).
Since you were interested in other people's thoughts and opinions, I thought I'd share mine.
chas
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#397804 - 01/06/1509:25 AMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: guitpic1]
travlin'easy
Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Professional - (of a person) engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime."a professional boxer" synonyms: paid, salaried "a professional rugby player"
Edited by travlin'easy (01/06/1509:26 AM)
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Pro what? Pro entertainer, maybe. A Pro, at least in my mind, is someone who has mastered a skill to a level generally considered above the 'amateur' level.
Since you were interested in other people's thoughts and opinions, I thought I'd share mine.
chas
Actually what I was first after was to find out if other types of keyboards supported styles.
That said, the question is, what are we discussing here? If the goal is to make $$$ entertaining in music, then the best entertainers seem to have the best business.
Is the goal to become an accomplished musician in whatever endeavor? Then the skilled person is the pro.
However, most audiences I have played to over the past 50 years or so, can recognize a good entertainer but couldn't tell you if the person had average, good or excellent playing skills...and for the most part didn't care. Audiences are more interested in being entertained.
Edited by guitpic1 (01/06/1510:11 AM)
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#397821 - 01/06/1510:26 AMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: guitpic1]
travlin'easy
Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Originally Posted By: guitpic1
[b] However, most audiences I have played to over the past 50 years or so, can recognize a good entertainer but couldn't tell you if the person had average, good or excellent playing skills...and for the most part didn't care. Audiences are more interested in being entertained.
Ditto!
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#397822 - 01/06/1510:26 AMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: guitpic1]
cgiles
Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Gary, for the record, I DO consider you a true 'professional' in the sense that this is what you do for a living (and you have been successful at it). However, being a professional entertainer and PLAYING (a musical instrument) AT A PROFESSIONAL LEVEL are two totally different things. That is not to say that they have to be mutually exclusive. But, to call oneself a professional MUSICIAN implies that one does or could make a living solely as a musician because of his mastery of some phase of music (singers are a grey area and I would tend to refer to them as professional singers). But here is the thing; I believe that with your entertainment skills, you could make an equally good living doing exactly the same thing WITHOUT the use of a keyboard prop (even if that 'prop' is musically employed). I believe this has been shown time and time again through posts right here on SZ. Again, JMO.
chas
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#397823 - 01/06/1510:32 AMRe: Another question: Styles and keyboards
[Re: guitpic1]
travlin'easy
Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Chas, that's why I've never touted myself as a musician - just an entertainer. Back when I was strumming a 12 string and singing to the ladies in smoke-filled bars I said the same thing, I'm just an entertainer - not a musician, though several local bands thought I was one Hell of a guitar player at the time. I knew better. At the most, back then, I knew a dozen chords, and that was a struggle for me.
As Clint Eastwood once said "A man's got to know his limitations." I definitely know mine. Ironically, I know a lot of Peabody trained musicians around here and none of them can find a job - they suck as entertainers. I guess that's why it's called Show Biz."
All the best,
Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
And, as I've stated many times in the past, what exactly defines a pro musician? I mean, the last time I checked I was still getting paid more than anyone in my region for playing music and singing. So, whether I use a guitar, fiddle, harmonica, or a kazoo, if I get paid, I'm a pro musician/entertainer. If I did this for fun and didn't get paid, I guess I would not be a pro, but what the Hell do I know? I've only been making my full time living at this for just over 20 years. 
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