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#397791 - 01/06/15 03:42 AM Re: Another question: Styles and keyboards [Re: ianmcnll]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5392
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
I love using "styles" (Roland coined the term many years ago)...especially since they can be edited to suit my manner of play...using styles also allows the player the freedom to use his own chord substitutions, and, today's arrangers with their excellent chord recognition (including inversions) really give the player very few restrictions.

We've come a long way from the boom-ticky-ticky style engines of yesteryear.

Midi files definitely have their uses, and although I'm not one to use them, they are unquestionably another tool in the arranger's box of tricks.

And, the Arranger Keyboard is just another tool in the keyboard player's kit....I call it the "Swiss Army Knife" of keyboards.

The Arranger Keyboard's biggest detractors and critics are usually players unable, unwilling, or too lazy to adapt to the playing style needed to bring the best out in the instrument.

As I was telling a friend earlier this evening, having done hundreds of clinics and demos I have learned that many competent (and usually well seasoned, and perhaps stuck in their ways) keyboard/piano/organ players can't adapt very well to the system needed to play an arranger in "style" mode...it's a combination of "dumbing down" whereas you have to play all chord types and inversions in a limited space, and "wisening up" in that you really have to know your chord voicings well in order to play anything reasonably complex.

At the same time you have to have the skill/knowledge to pick appropriate voices in the RH and play them with the proper inflections.

Witness musicians like Martin Harris play the arranger like this:



and you quickly see and hear just how much power and expression the instrument is capable of giving the player...and Marty is a PLAYER!

One time the Arranger was basically for hobbyists, but not anymore...lots of pros have wisely adapted to the instrument...I know in my own case, it has brought me all kinds of work, both on stage, and in the studio.

Ian


Hi Ian

Martin is a great player (I first saw him in the early 80s) as your video shows, however give him 2 keyboards and pedals and he just moves up to another level, as he no longer has to rely on the style for backing. (There is no substitute to seeing someone actually play the instrument (Without needing fancy backings) whether it be classics, great bass solos or jazz)

Bill
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English Riviera:
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#397792 - 01/06/15 05:37 AM Re: Another question: Styles and keyboards [Re: abacus]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: abacus


Hi Ian

Martin is a great player (I first saw him in the early 80s) as your video shows, however give him 2 keyboards and pedals and he just moves up to another level, as he no longer has to rely on the style for backing. (There is no substitute to seeing someone actually play the instrument (Without needing fancy backings) whether it be classics, great bass solos or jazz)

Bill


I get your point Bill, as I was once a Yamaha Electone instructor (and course graduate) and played (and demoed) for many years using bass pedals and two manuals (in some cases, three), and yes, it does free up the player to some extent. I have a set of bass pedals (and a digital piano that stands in as a lower manual for my Tyros4) at the studio and sometimes use them when I don't want to work with a style.

However, even with bass pedals, the player is still dealing with, what is essentially, an on-board preset drum machine. Sure, editing is possible, but, if I'm going to be editing in the first place, then using a style is my "go to" method, especially since I can get so much out of them with all the editing tools on-board the instrument (and the plethora of donor styles available). Some of my custom styles have as many as seven variations (as opposed to the standard four-I reprogram the three intros as variations) and often I'll use two or more styles in series (usually when recording) to get even more variety. It is easy to do on today's instruments.

Plus, over the years I have picked up some excellent tips from the company's pro style creators, and the occasional PC based style editing tool, so, I guess, what I'm saying, especially in my case, is that it comes down to personal preference.

So, styles are generally my preferred way of recording/performing...I don't use them to color my songs, I create songs by using styles... they're a crucial part of what I do ... I don't, and have never, considered styles a crutch (or the easy way out) ... they're part of the art.

Ian
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#397798 - 01/06/15 08:09 AM Re: Another question: Styles and keyboards [Re: ianmcnll]
guitpic1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/16/14
Posts: 1950
Loc: Missouri
Wow...interesting responses to my thread.

A couple of thoughts.

First, I was really after finding out if other types of keyboards(other than arrangers and keyboards like the Clavanova) played styles. I think Don did give me an answer there.

I really like what Ian has to say here...very true.

Some "pros" aren't even advanced players, but, due to a combination of "entertainer" skills, and, either being able to play enough good basic chords in one key (and use the transposer), or use SMF for most of the performance, they certainly manage to get paid (and sometimes very well) for their work and are quite successful.


If there's one thing I've learned helping to manage/book for our Dalton Opera house is that the one skill a pro really needs is the ability to entertain folks. The folks that we booked, that brought the biggest ticket sales/at the highest prices were folks that could really 'entertain' the crowd and most just used Karoke..and no one cared.

Re: keyboard skills. I'm one of those basic players that Ian mentioned...most folks I know have more skills than me. I'm a basic chord person.

Here's the interesting thing to me. I get more jobs playing the Tyros with my basic skills than I do playing mandolin and/or guitar. And I've been playing those two instruments most of my life.

I know the difference between a skilled keyboard player and a rookie. My brother has been playing piano as a teacher since he was a kid and now he is in his 60's. He does perform with his choirs but isn't interested in playing to other types of crowds...he can play circles around me.

So am I a professional keyboard player? If you count making money with it...maybe yes? In my mind I'm not a pro but my audiences sure don't seem to care.

What I have always been able to do(I believe anyway)is entertain and that's what gets you jobs in my book.

Recently I was asked to play a gig. I told the folks that I would be playing keyboard. They hesitated. "That's fine", I heard over the phone. "However, we want entertainment and singing". "We get all kinds of folks who just play keyboard".

So, in my book, regardless of instrument played or skill level, the pro's are the ones who are very skilled at entertaining.

Thanks for the thoughts.

smile
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#397801 - 01/06/15 08:57 AM Re: Another question: Styles and keyboards [Re: guitpic1]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Originally Posted By: guitpic1
the pro's are the ones who are very skilled at entertaining.



Now your making sense!... keys cool2


Edited by Dnj (01/06/15 08:58 AM)

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#397802 - 01/06/15 09:20 AM Re: Another question: Styles and keyboards [Re: guitpic1]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By: guitpic1
So, in my book, regardless of instrument played or skill level, the pro's are the ones who are very skilled at entertaining.

smile


Pro what? Pro entertainer, maybe. A Pro, at least in my mind, is someone who has mastered a skill to a level generally considered above the 'amateur' level. Too often I hear people use the reasoning that "if I make money doing it, I'm a Pro". Or, that if I'm able to 'entertain' an audience while sitting behind a keyboard I can barely play, that makes me a 'pro' musician. That is such BULL. That's just a way of deluding oneself while filing a void that most REAL pro's have absolutely no interest in. Most self-proclaimed "pro's" are able to accomplish this because they mostly perform in a non-competitive environment (ie. not competing against true professional musicians) in (less musically demanding) venues not courted by most professional musicians who are more interested in THE ART than how people might view them.

Down in our hearts, we all know what a true professional musician is (and you won't find very many playing arranger keyboards). Marco Parisi is a professional musician; Cory Henry is a professional musician; and there are literally THOUSANDS of others out there who play at that level. Few here play at that level. A housewife can walk into a bar and strip, and all the men will be highly appreciative and hugely entertained, but that doesn't make her a professional stripper (even if they toss her a couple of bucks).

Since you were interested in other people's thoughts and opinions, I thought I'd share mine.

chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#397804 - 01/06/15 09:25 AM Re: Another question: Styles and keyboards [Re: guitpic1]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Professional - (of a person) engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime."a professional boxer" synonyms: paid, salaried "a professional rugby player"



Edited by travlin'easy (01/06/15 09:26 AM)
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K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#397814 - 01/06/15 10:01 AM Re: Another question: Styles and keyboards [Re: guitpic1]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
This guy, Alan McPike, has always impressed me with his bass pedal work and lovely arrangements...he has some other great tunes on his site.

He is both an "advanced player" (highly skilled) and a "professional performer/player" (he gets paid for it).

This also illustrates that having the latest keyboard isn't necessary, as he's using instruments that are far from current.


_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#397817 - 01/06/15 10:10 AM Re: Another question: Styles and keyboards [Re: cgiles]
guitpic1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/16/14
Posts: 1950
Loc: Missouri
Pro what? Pro entertainer, maybe. A Pro, at least in my mind, is someone who has mastered a skill to a level generally considered above the 'amateur' level.

Since you were interested in other people's thoughts and opinions, I thought I'd share mine.

chas


Actually what I was first after was to find out if other types of keyboards supported styles. smile

That said, the question is, what are we discussing here? If the goal is to make $$$ entertaining in music, then the best entertainers seem to have the best business.

Is the goal to become an accomplished musician in whatever endeavor? Then the skilled person is the pro.

However, most audiences I have played to over the past 50 years or so, can recognize a good entertainer but couldn't tell you if the person had average, good or excellent playing skills...and for the most part didn't care. Audiences are more interested in being entertained.

smile


Edited by guitpic1 (01/06/15 10:11 AM)
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#397821 - 01/06/15 10:26 AM Re: Another question: Styles and keyboards [Re: guitpic1]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Originally Posted By: guitpic1
[b]
However, most audiences I have played to over the past 50 years or so, can recognize a good entertainer but couldn't tell you if the person had average, good or excellent playing skills...and for the most part didn't care. Audiences are more interested in being entertained.

smile


Ditto!
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#397822 - 01/06/15 10:26 AM Re: Another question: Styles and keyboards [Re: guitpic1]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Gary, for the record, I DO consider you a true 'professional' in the sense that this is what you do for a living (and you have been successful at it). However, being a professional entertainer and PLAYING (a musical instrument) AT A PROFESSIONAL LEVEL are two totally different things. That is not to say that they have to be mutually exclusive. But, to call oneself a professional MUSICIAN implies that one does or could make a living solely as a musician because of his mastery of some phase of music (singers are a grey area and I would tend to refer to them as professional singers). But here is the thing; I believe that with your entertainment skills, you could make an equally good living doing exactly the same thing WITHOUT the use of a keyboard prop (even if that 'prop' is musically employed). I believe this has been shown time and time again through posts right here on SZ. Again, JMO.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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