When Ray Kurzweil sampled the 1st acoustic instrument, what was his goal ? IMO opinion the answer has always been authenticity.

Wikipedia says this about Kurzweil " The company launched the K250 synthesizer/sampler in 1984: while limited by today's standards and quite expensive, it was considered to be the first really successful attempt to emulate the complex sound of a grand piano."

Emulate the sound of the acoustic piano was the objective.

Roland, Yamaha, Korg and all other manufacturers was after authenticity. Personally Ketron is the sound I wanted.

How well do you think the manufacturers have done with reproducing authentic sounds ?

Well, Ray cared about the sounds being as good (Athentic) as possible and the Kurzweils still have that going for them.
Not so much with others....
Even today, I can go play a TOTL arranger and fins many sounds not correctly done.
I had a PA2XPRO and that is one main reason I sold it. The sounds (many) had problems,

There are many different sound design issues you hear.....very complicated to cover here.

IF you play only fast, dance type music then it is not near as much of a big deal...BUT if you like symphonic, musical theatre, standards, movies music etc...then the sounds need to be great quality...as there is no singing, no loud drum tracks, no distortion guitars etc. to cover up the poor sound quality of the instrument.

One example I can remember on the Korg was the Sax's.....if you played up/down the keyboard you could hear the problems with the samples. Another example is on violins...the upper end of the instruments range often has a digital noise instead of the beautiful sound of a quality violin.

All that said...they do have a LOT of really good sounds too.

I think Kurzweil is still the best...and I wish they made an arranger keyboard using those sounds.

Kurzweil/MidJay could be a nice combo.....

The Kurzweil romplers of the mid 1980s were really light years ahead of the competition, their samples of 1985 sounded considerably better than those of a Yamaha SY99 in 1993.
By now, I think the difference in authenticity between the competitors has decreased strongly. IMO it really depends on the single instrument sampled which of the competitors is most authentic. Kurzweil doesn't seem to have changed much since the late 1990s, so they are in danger of losing their edge (some say their samples sound old already, I don't necessarily agree).
Korg is often criticized, but I have a very good impression of some of the Korg M3 XP expansion sounds. The Korg brass and woodwind expansions that came with the M3 Xpanded had some of the best solo trumpets, saxophones, French horns etc. I ever played, better than those from Integra and Motif. In contrast, a lot of the preset sounds of the Krome lack authenticity. I don't know exactly if any of the great expansion sounds are implemented in the Korg arrangers. So it depends!

I think when it comes to hardware and authentic sounding acoustic instruments my Yamaha Tyros 5 is as good as it gets... However, the Acoustic piano sounds are underperforming. I like most Tyros 5 SA2 accoustic sounds better then Rolands naturall acoustic sounds, which also are quite good...

Korg has some nice guitars and piano sounds, but very weak on brass wood and other accoustics
Ketron really misses the nuances that Yamaha allows to create authentic sounds, but still as plain sampled instruments they sound great
Kurzweil never got much deeper with their VAST architecture
Nord, doesnt do much accoustic sounds except for pianos
Etc etc etc...

If you want really authentic sounding acoustic instruments, then you are better of using Software VSTs.. Just try the string ensembles in LASS(kontakt library), or the pianos in Pianoteq and the many other virtuall instruments and you realise that some virtuall instruments currently sound better and more authentic then some of the less stellar cheaper orriginalls.

I absolutely disagree with respect to the M3 brass/woodwinds expansion.
https://soundcloud.com/korg/s008-f-horn-heroics-ex1?in=korg/sets/m3-xpanded-demos
https://soundcloud.com/korg/s012-trumpetations-ex1?in=korg/sets/m3-xpanded-demos
https://soundcloud.com/korg/s013-albondigas-ex1?in=korg/sets/m3-xpanded-demos
https://soundcloud.com/korg/s015-clarinet-moods-ex2-by?in=korg/sets/m3-xpanded-demos

I shouldn't have listened to these demos again, now I regret having sold the M3 again...

This is a demo, in which I used the wonderful tongue-attack solo trumpet from the M3 expansion:
https://soundcloud.com/rorosetree/h-ndel-wassermusik-suite-d-dur

I agree. I suggest it also depends very much on the player and how well he can emulate the nuances of each instrument.

No matter how good the sample (including VST's), a good part of the perceived realism still depends on the player's skill, and, although great strides have been made in achieving authentic articulation (SA/SA2, DNC, SuperNatural etc.), a trumpet sound, for example, will not be realistic if the performer doesn't allow for breathing and doesn't play in the proper range.

My biggest disappointment with the latest Yamaha Tyros instruments (and CVP as well) are the SA pianos...I'm still using Live!Grand Piano as my basic, "go to", piano sound...the SA pianos are very weak (lifeless)in the mid-range.

However, Yamaha does redeem itself with the other SA/SA2 instruments, especially the Saxophones and Trumpets (my favs are SA2 Jazz Trumpet and SA2 Jazz Saxophone) and the SA guitars (electric and acoustic), for the most part, are also very well done.

In the non-natural instrument category, the Tyros4's Synth Pads are pretty cool too, especially when stacked in two or even three layers.

Overall, I'm pretty content with my Tyros4.

Ian

Very nice insight Ian.

My first keyboard (PSR4600) had DASS and the roll bar.

So the piano was always the sound every one stressed, but here we are 15 years after the Tyros 1 and the piano sample is still very much the same. What do you think ?



Kurzweil has a very very nice piano sample that sustains without the piano sample getting "thin" after 5 seconds.

To me the Tyros 5 piano still sounds like the older CF3 sample of the main Motif XS piano - it is a bit too bright and sounds like a pop piano. Obviously the more wooden S6 piano sample of the Motif XF (and MoXF) are not implemented in the Tyros.
I especially cannot understand why piano packages such as the free CP1 piano for the Motif + MoXF flash are obviously not offered as a Tyros expansion. And it seems very complicated to get third-party pianos into the Tyros flash (only via PC and voice editor - is it finally available for the T5 at all?)
It seems Yamaha thinks that the average arranger player is satisfied with a rather bright piano that doesn't have a lot of depth.

I think many companies keep "zigging" when we expect them to "zag" and Yamaha is no exception.

Thankfully, the Live!GrandPiano responds well to editing...even something as simple as rolling down the filter Brightness to -12 mellows it out quite nicely for Jazz Ballads (sounds almost Steinway-esque)...it actually sounds better (to my ears) than the Live!WarmGrand panel voice.

A friend of mine bought a brand new CVP-609 last year and was very disappointed in the SA Pianos...in fact, he phoned me wondering if he had to reset the piano in case the EQ was out of whack.

He eventually calmed down and settled for the Live!GrandPiano, although he was still very disenchanted in such a high priced "piano" instrument having literally no advancement in the piano sound since his previous CVP-109!

When I was working for the company, I complained vigorously about the SA Pianos, and I was not alone...however, it obviously had no effect.

In fact, the relatively inexpensive Yamaha P-85 we used in the studio as an 88-note weighted action controller had a better piano sound than the CVP's featured pianos.

In my case, "piano" is only one of the many sounds I use (although it is used a lot), so having a full range sound isn't that critical...on a piano-based arranger instrument, a lame sounding piano is unforgivable.

Ian

I'm more then happy with what instrument facsimile technology has given us today, more then close enough to the real thing,I don't see what all the hub bub is?........on top of that you can easily manipulate the KB sounds to what ever you want to sound like in so many ways...IMO forget the sound, arps, and styles, sequences, etc,.. & concentrate on better features, navigation, design, utilities,
that players are all asking for to make it easier to play, create, and enjoy. And do it before we're all gone please!!

Ian, over the years I've found that all Yamaha instruments responded well to editing, but the best ones, at least from my experience, to edit were the old midi pianos - now they really can be tuned to become a fantastic sounding piano. The one I posted at PSR Tutorial has been downloaded thousands of times.

Gary

A piano alone is one thing but a piano in an arranger KB mix really is not appreciated regarding it's nuances...

So what about authentic styles ? Drums - Guitar Emulation - etc..

It looks to me that audio tracks are the thing manufacturers are going for. Agreed ? Audya - Korg - Yamaha

I've been digging the PSRS950 a bunch. I like using the guitar strum offered with the multipads with styles.

Gary, I'm more than happy with the basic Live!GrandPiano, which goes back to the PSR-3000 (and the even earlier 9000Pro and PSR-2100), I believe.

Like you, I get a lot of mileage out of it with a bit of simple editing, mainly in the Filter section. With appropriate "adjustments", that piano works well for all genres...from brightly bangin' out old Rock and Roll to softly sensuous jazz and classical ballads...and everything in between. It's a real work horse.

I tried loading in some allegedly "great" third party piano samples in my Tyros4, but I still go back to the versatile Live!GrandPiano and my simple edits.

Ian

So much of a piano sound is in what you like to hear. There are vast differences in the way real pianos sound. Yamahas sound different from Stienways, Busendorfers still different, grands sound different from uprights, etc.
I tend to get used to whatever piano sound my latest arranger has and then when I get a different one, it sounds strange for a while.
I actually like the grand pianos on Yamaha arrangers. They are bright and cut through the style as solo instrument.

I've no complaints with the all midi styles in my Tyros4, although I tend to heavily edit them to suit my manner of play. The biggest advance, in my opinion, and in regards to Yamaha's styles, was the introduction of Mega Voices in the style engine...and, with the Tyros4, one can also use SA/SA2 voices in the styles...pretty cool, and very realistic sounding. Also, the style engine has been recently updated and offers even more realistic guitar strums and arpeggios.

As far as Yamaha's audio drum based styles (Tyros5 and S950), I have mixed feelings, mainly due to their very limited editing and restricted sharing/storing of said edited styles.

I can work with the midi based drum kits much better, but I do see the attraction of the audio based styles, especially in the Audya.

Ian

I really love the sound of those S-950 audio drums, but apparently I'm in the minority with this one.

Gary

I agree with you Gary. Very nice improvements on the 950.

I think the S950 (and Tyros5's) audio drums sound great too, Gary...I'm just disappointed in their limitations as far as editing and storage.

I'm probably in a further minority in that I heavily edit my styles, so my needs are also quite different than most.

Ian

Since drums do not have to respond to chord changes,it is easier to sync audio drums to the pattern.

Ketron did this ( audio drums) and now Yamaha & Korg are following imo. However there are not many styles on the T5 that have the audio tracks.

rosetree,
Yes I like the M3 exp sounds very much. I had a PA2XPRO and many sounds suffered from poor sampling/programming.
Example...you play a nice Sax solo, and some notes now & then have a honk sound instead of the same sound as the others...and sometimes vibrato varies so much note-note that it sounds horrible. OK for fast stuff...NFG for nice orchestral or music with nice slower melody's with feeling. If they are going to do the sampling with vibrato...the speed & depth need to be similar.

The thing is...talking Pianos or any thing...these high end company's know how to do terrific sounds...and they have them ...they sometimes only use older samples or are afraid to put in their best sounds into an arranger because the PRO division does not want the arrangers to sound as good (fighting among the divisions). I do think that has gotten better in recent years...and sharing seems to be better.

I agree, the styles sound good, sure, but they are only audio drums and they dont come close to the audya full audio style technollogy...

I think yamaha opted for the cheap way out when they implemented audio styles this way.

Either they went the "cheap way" or they were being very cautious in fully implementing audio based styles.

Korg has completely shied away from using this technology, as has Roland, although the latter appears to be less involved with arrangers lately, so perhaps Yamaha is just putting their toe in the water before taking the plunge.

Even Ketron hasn't got it perfected yet, being that they need to use midi based sounds to reproduce certain complex chords, although, I must admit, they have done a pretty good job disguising that fact.

As I said before, I'm quite content with my Tyros4's entirely midi based styles, especially since the editing (most important to me) and storage is without issues, and the use of mega voices (and SA/SA2 voices) still gives an extremely realistic representation.

Ian

True, all of the above. And nobody ever came up and said a piano was too bright or muddy or thinned out in the higher octaves. If what you play is within the context of the song, the crowd really don't care too much one way or the other. At least, that's been my experience over the years.

Ol' Jerry Lee never worried about this stuff. Back then you were stuck with whatever happened to be in the hall. And we've all had some doozies, i'll bet.

Now THAT was authenticity.

Yes, obviously there is a considerably split in sample quality between different Korg instruments (maybe arrangers versus high-end synthesizers) and also between presets versus expansions. Those M3 expansions were taken from the OASYS, which had a 7,000€ price tag... In these spheres, it is also insiginificant whether a sample is from 2014 or from 2005, even a sample from the late 1990s can be superior if it was produced thoroughly and with enough megabytes of data.
As you say, there is a problem if vibrato is sampled and there are not enough samples per octave. The vibrato speed varies terribly then. On the other hand, no artificial (edited) LFO vibrato can get as realistic as a sampled one. I hate edited vibrato, you immediately hear that it is not from a real instrument. So one would have to have samples for every single key, and obviously Korg didn't want to spend that much waveROM for saxophones in the PA2X.

Funnily, in the case of Yamaha it is partly vice versa: a lot of the Tyros voices are not part of the pro synthesizer Motif: it doesn't have SA2 voices. But as I said, on the other hand, the Tyros doesn't have the higher-quality pianos the Motif can load into its flash board.

I wish I could get a MOXF sound module with all those expansion sounds you have.
A regular motif module would not have them would it?

No, unfortunately the last rack/module Yamaha released was the Motif XS rack. It doesn't have RAM or flash memory for samples, you cannot load any new samples.
Some hoped for a new Motif XF rack with free sample memory after Roland released the Integra, but nothing happened... I would also swap my MoXF with a module, as you can be more flexible with the choice of the keyboard you use.

I agree with you Ian. With Audya, Ketron bit off more then they could chew and relied on OS upgrades to fix the bugs. Had they refreshed the SD1, Ketron may have had more success.

And where does their marketing & support come into the picture regarding their success thru the years.?

That would be a different thread. Donny

Still Donny hits the nail right on the head... its the main reason Ketron is loosing out on its competitors.. Sure Ajam is great and helpfull, but in arranger land europe the ketron service and their marketing ar lacking big time

its hard to find Ketron resellers these days in Holland, Scandinavia, Germany and the UK