I think a lot of pro keyboardists in bands want to take much influence on the sounds they play, really be able to edit them in depth and sometimes create completely new sounds in case they are into synthetic, electronic sounds.
Arrangers simply do not provide the editing architecture to do that. Even a Tyros doesn't provide the architecture to go down to the level of individual waveforms and combine them freely to form voices, unless you use the voice editor via computer.
In a MoXF, I can take up to 8 waveforms, let's say trumpet, alto sax, mute trumpet, trombone etc. to form a brass section as a voice - and then I can combine 16 voices to form a performance (or mixing, or studio set, or combination in the terms of Korg). So a performance/mixing/combination can theoretically contain 16 x 8 = 128 elements - just to show how much more flexible a synthesizer is when creating your own individual sounds and clusters.
So, I think as long as arrangers have this simplified architecture (which has its merits, of course, for those who need it simple and fast), pro band players who want to be creative 'sound inventors' won't buy an arranger.

I've actually seen several arranges used on stage with bands, including Harry Belefonte's band when I saw it live in Baltimore many years ago. The player was surrounded by four arrangers and sat upon a drum throne. He was incredible and did an unbelievable solo. Now, I don't know about the bands in central New Jersey, but most of the bands I've seen during the past decade usually consist of a couple guitars, a bass player, a drummer and some vocalists. They rarely have horns or any other instruments. When I was asked to play with the Hubcaps many years ago, I used my keyboard as a piano, sax, trumpet and strings - the other band members loved it. In that band, they have a fantastic keyboard player who utilizes many of the right hand voices - not just the piano voice. And, he has two keyboards stacked on a two tiered stand.

Maybe in NJ they don't have a need for keyboard players in their bands, but they sure do in all the other places I've visited and seen bands performing. As to whether or not it's a pro instrument, who gives a shit! It will always be a pro instrument in the hands of a professional - it's that simple. And, if the younger crowds don't embrace it - well, that's just fine with me.

When you think about it, every instrument is essentially a home instrument. A piano, acoustic guitar, uke, banjo, etc... are all used more by home players than performers. Keep in mind that pro players of any instrument only make up a tiny fraction of those who purchase those instruments. I would venture a guess that of all the pianos sold worldwide, less than 1/1000th of one percent are played professionally by entertaining musicians.

Cheers,

Gary

Mainstream players generally are part of a band, and prefer to work that way...they don't need an arranger because there are people who play the other parts.

One Man Band (arranger) players, like ourselves, obviously embrace the concept of being able to do it all on our own...some were forced into solo work (unavailability of competent reliable players, e.g.), while others simply preferred the independence and control of having an instrument capable of doing all the accompaniment parts...I'm of the latter group.

Also, the whole industry is not only changing...it's expanding. Look at YouTube, for example...not much need to "go out" and perform on stage when you can reach hundreds of viewers (audience) with your living room as your stage.

As far as a concrete reason why mainstream players don't use Arranger Keyboards? It's never even been the remotest concern of mine, so I really can't answer that one...I've been too busy playing and making money with my Arranger Keyboards to stop long enough to analyse the issue. The alleged "stigma" of using auto-accompaniment didn't keep me from being hired or creating and getting lots of studio work, and I'm not that insecure to where it matters to me what someone else thinks of what instrument I play.

I don't believe the Arranger Keyboard will go the way of the Home Organ...it replaced the Home Organ, and until something else comes along to replace what the arranger does (maybe software based arrangers will make some impact?) I think the instrument still has a reasonably bright future.

I also think that the time between new models will be longer, again reflecting the growing umber of alternate ways of making/creating music, especially on the computer.

So yes, Donny, there will quite likely be an S960, just as there will be a Tyros6...however, maybe like me, you may not find the new features on the subsequent model useful enough for your needs to make having one a necessity.

I certainly can't see any reason for replacing my Tyros4, other than its hardware wearing out and not being able to get it fixed.

Ian

UH... chas ... that was IAN, not me ... we may have the same hairdo, but it was Ian ... ...

... and to repeat myself for the 3rd or 4th time - the reason we don't see them on stage is because they ARE NOT NEEDED ON STAGE BECAUSE THE 'ARRANGER' PARTS ARE BEING PLAYED BY OTHER LIVE MUSICIANS !!!

and chas, it doesn't take years to prepare a piano for a gig, just an hour or two to tune it ... BUT, it takes years to prepare a PLAYER for a gig, and that holds true for any instrument ... including an AK ...

BUT WAIT ... I HAVE seen arranger KBs being used by bands at weddings and in clubs and they often are being used to play backing tracks to supplement the live band ... much like mp3 players might be used ... now one might question the 'pro' level of these groups, but some are busy enough that this is how they earn their living ... but, I do not expect to see top groups using one for the reason I have already stated ... and when THEY are using backing tracks they are doing so with far more sophisticated equipment ...

Tony, as I said on an earlier thread, the Arranger Keyboard's biggest detractors and critics are usually players unable, unwilling, or too lazy to adapt to the playing style needed to bring the best out of the instrument.

Having done hundreds of clinics and demos, I have learned that many competent (and usually well seasoned, and perhaps stuck in their ways) keyboard/piano/organ players can't adapt very well to the system needed to play an arranger in "style" mode (which is the instrument's primary forte)...it's a combination of "dumbing down" whereas you have to play all chord types and inversions in a limited space, and "wisening up" in that you really have to know your chord voicings very well in order to play anything reasonably complex.

Plus there are creative arranger players just like there are creative organ/piano players...it's all how one uses the tools they have chosen to create with...a "Swiss Army Knife" in skilled hands can do far more than an ordinary pocket knife in equally competent hands.

Again, its hardly an instrument we should have to defend...it does what WE want...who could ask for anything more?

Ian

Tony, in the context of being a "lazy man's tool", I'm sure you got the gist of what I meant. While you're at it, maybe you can explain why arranger players get so darn defensive and downright angry if anyone says anything that's not downright glowering about the thing. "Thou dost protest too much" comes to mind. Lots of people tell me the 'Hammond' sound is dated; I could care less; I like it. Quit trotting out the same old tired arguments about how much money you've made with your AK, or how much your audiences "love" your sound - compared to what? So dumb to take these things so personally. Even the much-loved DNJ can't make a true statement about these things without getting hammered .

Play on, baby, it's all music - more or less.

chas

The same "old tired arguments" only seem to appear after the same old tired criticisms by the same old tired critics.

'Round and 'round they go...

Ian

As I said before.Arrangers are necessary evil. I like them, but if I have a chance not to use them and play with real musicians I will take it every single time.

At least two to three times a month I have that exquisite pleasure, made all the more enjoyable by the splendid '63 Hammond B-3 I have the honor to play.

Ian

Which, of course, YOU never, ever contribute to. Must be wonderful to be so pure and so innocent ALL the time. Maybe you should give a clinic on how to accomplish that. You wouldn't even need a T4, just a BS meter.

chas