What did you expect to learn? It's a trade show.

Gary

Maybe that Musikmesse is more important with respect to arrangers? (to be confirmed in April...)

that's a BIG Maybe....... but I guess we'll see at things like Musikmesse the trend of the future arranger kbs ...don't be surprised if things start to change from what we know now...as the VOID of arrangers at NAMM 2015 has started...I hope not...could the "Party" be Over?......or do we stockpile what we have already. we'll see.

IIRC, Korg usually goes with Messe on arranger announcements.

Lessons from NAMM

-NAMM is not for the arranger market
-Innovation comes from the smaller companies
-Integration between hardware and VSTs made another step
-Analogue synths are making a comeback
-TOTL synth workstation hardware is a thing of the past for both Yamaha and Roland.
-VST software is moving forward, where the hardware is moving backward


I think those where my lessons

Exactly,........Arrangers are on the bottom of the list instead of coming closer together with workstations , Etc, in the music communities though process.......and because of that little by little they will dwindle away and be replaces by what the people want....and NAMM 2015 is a BIG Indication of that. NO matter how much WE love arrangers it could be a losing battle in the future. Why isn't it being embraced more by pros & they realize what a powerful music tool it is?
that's the big question? I personally think it's because musicians rather CREATE Music on workstations from scratch the way they want it interpreted vs playing some repetitive pre made style.....& even though you can still do that on an arranger most have no interest at all..

In the US they are non important

In EU its still a whole different story, however, its hard to get the youth into playing any actuall instrument except guitars and drums... despite the fact that for musical education at many schools they use arrangers these days.

Overhere in europe we deffinately need a charm offensive from two or three rockstars using arrangers to create music...to pull in the youth, but in general arrangers are still big buiseness and still outsell organs/synths/workstations.

Arrangers seem to sell better in certain areas...here in Canada, the province of Quebec is one of the biggest markets...it is also where Yamaha sells the largest number of custom finished grand pianos.

Ian

at least I'm not alone in my thinking that's just the way it is. many players I talk to consider an arranger keyboard as a lazy man's tool. Versus a workstation.

I guess I look at this a bit differently when it comes to arrangers. Keep in mind, though, that I'm NOT a musician - I'm an entertainer. I look at an arranger as among the most versatile music tools available today. And, I'm constantly amazed at the number of musicians that come up to me and tell me how great the keyboard sounds.

One of the things I often wonder to myself is how much more can the manufacturers create in an arranger keyboard? Granted, some folks will never be pleased unless the manufacturers make the keyboard exactly the way THEY want it, but generally speaking, the arranger keyboard, in it's present form, is absolutely incredible.

AS for the keys, I agree with DNJ. Give me those light touch keys every day. I tried using a fully weighted controller for a couple hours and thought my wrists would break off. Toward the end it felt as if I needed a ballpean hammer to press the keys. When you perform 6 to 7 days a week, often twice a day, those lightweight keys are a Godsent.

Now I know that I only have a few more years of being a performer left in me at best. I sincerely believe that I can do any musical entertainment job, restaurant, nite club, bar, Nursing Home, assisted living center, retirement community and private party using the S-950 and my current sound system. I don't need tilt, touch screens, weighted keys, cast iron case, larger keys, different color case, more than the 700 voices already in the keyboard, or a cocktail dispenser on the keyboard to be a better entertainer or put on a better show.

As for an arranger being a lazy man's tool, not by any means. In fact, I feel just the opposite. An arranger requires a lot more work than any guitar I've ever played. Not only do you have to tune the instrment, but in addition, you must program the music finder and registrations so you will be ready to perform any song requested. You have to remember which songs you put into the registrations and MFD. You have to set up every aspect of every song, and for many of us, establish an interface with a netbook or laptop PC. Some of us even go to the trouble of creating custom styles or modifying styles to fit a particular song. All of this takes months of preparation to get it right. So, anyone that considers an arranger as a lazy man's music tool obviously doesn't have a clue what he or she is talking about.

In many ways, MOTL and TOTL arrangers are a lot like work stations. They can perform many of the same tasks, plus provide you with a lot more latitude in creating a song. There was a guy down here in the keys two years ago with an MO8 that absolutely loved to play my PSR-3000. We performed together on Saturday nights for about three months, and the night before he left for the Bahamas his wife came up to me and said "I would like to buy your keyboard if you are willing to sell it. When you play, there are lots of people up dancing. My husband notices this as well. He was really having a ball when he played your keyboard and I would love to buy yours and give it to him for his birthday next month." I had to turn her down for a number of reasons and she offered me full retail for the board. Ken now owns an S950 and rarely plays his MO8. Ken is a pro musician and played with a symphony orchestra in Texas before retiring to the cruising life aboard his 50-foot sailing catamaran.

I suspect some folks here will consider my statements of a raving, old codger that is on his way out, and they may be right. But, that's my story and I'm stickin to it!

Gary

I think an arranger is as much a "lazy man's tool" as a snow blower is to a shovel !!! ... If it makes a musician's life easier to deliver the final product, that's great IMHO ...

PS... when it comes to a snow blower or a shovel, I take it a step further and pay someone else to do it ! ... but the KB, I play myself ...
in fact I will be doing that today while the plow guy takes care of the drive way ... another 8" to 12" expected on top to the 16' we had last week ... and MORE TO COME ON THURSDAY !!!

Hop on a plane, Tony, 76 here today. And, I'm playing tonight at Cabana Breezes. I'm confident that Lydia would love the change in climate, fresh caught lobster and key lime pie.

Cheers,

Gary

Enjoy, Gary ... but that warm water lobster is no match for Maine, or even RI, cold water "lobstah !!!

I know some of you will disagree on the "lazy mans" reference but the facts are the facts, ......otherwise many more pros would be using them vs workstations & synths in bands, in studio and on stage where you rarely see an arranger Kb in live national acts venues, etc , etc, ...it's just the way it is...
will it ever change? i doubt it too late for that ....you cant create original music using someone elses
pre programmed styles, or midi files, you have to Create your OWN music track by track, if your talented enough to do that vs an automatic operated arranger style unit. & if you play in a band who needs styles just play Your parts on whatever Kb's you desire.... Nothing lasts for ever.

PS DITTO on the lobstah reference! Yum!

Tony and Donny, they have both down here, and you can select which one you prefer, clawless or Maine lobster. Hey, this is Paradise, you can get any kind of food you want in nearly every restaurant here. Additionally, you can get fresh caught grouper, snapper, king mackerel, blackfin tuna, yellowfin tuna, and lots of other, neat, local goodies including fresh caught gulf shrimp right off the boat.

Gary

We use the Tyros4 in the studio, not because we are lazy (although, we are )...we use it because we get results very quickly, and in the studio, time is money.

I can lay down a truly great bass line and drum track in just the amount of time it takes to play it through....can't do that with a workstation.

As far as pre-programmed styles? We rarely use the factory styles unedited, although, we could get away with it in most cases, especially for the more commercial type tunes we are recording.

I like to edit styles mainly to add stop/fills/intros/endings that are more appropriate for the tune in question.

And speaking of those tunes, we are generally fleshing out ideas by local singer/songwriters, or, recording singers who want to make a CD for their friends or family, and most of the tunes are commercial.

I've used Workstations, and just find the arranger far more intuitive and, as I said earlier, far quicker.

Many of the post retirement clinics I do are to show PSR/Tyros users how to edit styles so their music could have their own stamp on it...also, many of them were then able to make their own midi files to play/perform/sing over, rather than use the same old commercially made files every one else used...sometimes the devil is in the details. I know our Donny has mentioned that he often makes his own midi files, and I'm sure that it adds a nice touch and gives him his own élan on usually same old-same old tunes.

I'd take an arranger keyboard over a workstation any day, and, like any other electronic instrument or keyboard, it really depends on the skill and creativity of the player to make the most of it.

But, most of all, I love my Arranger because it lets me sit down and just “play” a tune "live" with a deluxe sounding band behind me...a band that can vary from just a drummer and bass player, to the whole orchestra...and anything in between.

Ian

Regarding the lobster...I like it boiled, and then shelled and sautéed in butter...totally decadent!

LOL! on the lobster thing. I can't even look one of those in the eye. Spoken like a true prairie boy.

Well said, Ian.

Arrangers have always been designed for the home market and are basically all the easy play features of organs that have been expanded, and combined in a compact package. (They are designed so it’s easy to just sit down, press a button and play)

That you can do a lot with them is not disputed, just that with their limited programmable real-time controls (And if you want something unique you first have to take off all the effects that the manufacture has added before you can start programming) makes it slower to make something unique. (Which if you’re paying for a studio, time is money)

If you look at 99.9% of arranger owners, if they want to learn a new song, they go onto a forum or club and ask if anybody has got a style for it rather than modify one for themselves. In the UK however this seems to be changing as more and more arranger owners are adding pedals and an extra keyboard to effectively turn them back into an organ, so that they can learn to play the backing without having to rely on a style. (Playing along to someone else’s backing, rather than creating or playing your own is where the lazy sticker comes from)

Bill

Donny... as I was reading your post, I was formulating a response, but then saw that you answered it yourself ... we don't see AKs in bands, because they are not needed - the other 'arranger parts' are played by other band members ...
and perhaps some 'pros' ARE using an AK in a studio setting, like Russ, Ian, and others ... we don't know because we can't see what they are using ...
And of course there are those who have the ability and desire to create their own styles with a workstation - more power to them ...
I will use on board styles - edited for MY purpose - and if that's 'lazy', so be it ...

Tony, I always say the Arranger Keyboard is the "Swiss Army Knife" of instruments.

It's also made me lots of money, both in the studio, and out playing "live", as well as being the perfect musical companion at home if I just want to sit down and play for my own enjoyment.

Ian

This is it... We have a swiss army knife or even better, a multitool with a tool for every job, compared to workstations, we have everything a workstation has and styles on top of that.

The best part of arrangers is that every button slider or knob ontheee is created for real time use... And thats another pro they have over a workstation like the Motif,where part of the motif is designed for studio integration which takes away some of the design phillossophy from live use...

Anyway, if you are an OMB an arranger is the only wise choice, as it can do it all... Unless you are a piano player, because if you are a piano player you should be sad that there is no stage piano with build in arranger...

Plus, as Billy says above, you can always add bass pedals (which I do, sometimes), an extra manual (ditto), and even VST's to the instrument...so an Arranger is not only an excellent instrument on its own, but a great foundation for a growing setup.

Korg made a really nice 88-note weighted action arranger, the PA-588, that was pretty much a fairly portable stage piano, although I think it may be discontinued.

Ian

"HOME MARKET" yes a big part of the non pro element way of thinking,..... before the 80's I never heard of an arranger kb because simply there were none & quite honestly if I was still in a band I wouldn't use an arranger at all, started using one out of necessity as a duo & later a solo act for the last 18 years successfully may I add,......before that I played for 20 years as a keyboard player in bands with out an arranger kb, creating tracks on workstations, playing all kinds of parts in the songs we did on some really big venues,.... I stacked 2 or sometimes 3 kbs E.Piano, Synth, Moog, etc, on top of a Hammond B3 for every gig,....
we made music and it sounded fantastic....

BTW I watched the Grammy Awards last night, ......Hmmmmmm? didn't see one arranger KB on that stage all night did you?.....
did I miss anything? or?

I rest my case.....

... and I rest mine ...

And even if Arranger Kbs are regarded by some as a "Swiss Army Knife" of sorts.. there is a reason you don't see them on stages worldwide & to get back to the OP NAMM 2015 has enforced this also is my point. Just sayin'

I really don't care if I ever see one on stage, although mine has been seen (and used), on them many times.

Pros that use arrangers aren't plentiful, as shown by SZ and other forums, like Keyboard Corner, but who really gives a shit?

I certainly don't.

It's only necessary that it works for my needs.

'Nuff said!

Ian

Ian that's all well and god ....as I do the same with an arranger KB also BUT,.....what I wanna know by this thread topic is why hasn't the use of arranger KB's been more plentifully embraced by mainstream players vs workstations/synths, etc,.....it's oddly unbalanced and there must be a good reason. Is it ignorance ....marketing....home player vs pro.....non availability in music stores.....a bad home organ aura reputation?? as the real reasons will effect the future of Arranger KB's IMO.

The thing about a 'Swiss Army Knife' is that it doesn't do anything well. Remember the old saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none". In music, as in life, there are no shortcuts; someone (Gary?) said "it can take months to prepare an arranger keyboard for a gig" - well guess what; it takes YEARS to prepare an acoustic piano for a gig. So yeah, there may be a 'lazy' aspect to it. Just sayin'.

But here's the thing. Those that use them are going to defend them to the death; those that don't are going to pooh-pooh them to the death. Funny thing is, nobody's right and nobody's wrong. If it works for you, as Tony says, "who really gives a shit?".

chas

I think a lot of pro keyboardists in bands want to take much influence on the sounds they play, really be able to edit them in depth and sometimes create completely new sounds in case they are into synthetic, electronic sounds.
Arrangers simply do not provide the editing architecture to do that. Even a Tyros doesn't provide the architecture to go down to the level of individual waveforms and combine them freely to form voices, unless you use the voice editor via computer.
In a MoXF, I can take up to 8 waveforms, let's say trumpet, alto sax, mute trumpet, trombone etc. to form a brass section as a voice - and then I can combine 16 voices to form a performance (or mixing, or studio set, or combination in the terms of Korg). So a performance/mixing/combination can theoretically contain 16 x 8 = 128 elements - just to show how much more flexible a synthesizer is when creating your own individual sounds and clusters.
So, I think as long as arrangers have this simplified architecture (which has its merits, of course, for those who need it simple and fast), pro band players who want to be creative 'sound inventors' won't buy an arranger.

I've actually seen several arranges used on stage with bands, including Harry Belefonte's band when I saw it live in Baltimore many years ago. The player was surrounded by four arrangers and sat upon a drum throne. He was incredible and did an unbelievable solo. Now, I don't know about the bands in central New Jersey, but most of the bands I've seen during the past decade usually consist of a couple guitars, a bass player, a drummer and some vocalists. They rarely have horns or any other instruments. When I was asked to play with the Hubcaps many years ago, I used my keyboard as a piano, sax, trumpet and strings - the other band members loved it. In that band, they have a fantastic keyboard player who utilizes many of the right hand voices - not just the piano voice. And, he has two keyboards stacked on a two tiered stand.

Maybe in NJ they don't have a need for keyboard players in their bands, but they sure do in all the other places I've visited and seen bands performing. As to whether or not it's a pro instrument, who gives a shit! It will always be a pro instrument in the hands of a professional - it's that simple. And, if the younger crowds don't embrace it - well, that's just fine with me.

When you think about it, every instrument is essentially a home instrument. A piano, acoustic guitar, uke, banjo, etc... are all used more by home players than performers. Keep in mind that pro players of any instrument only make up a tiny fraction of those who purchase those instruments. I would venture a guess that of all the pianos sold worldwide, less than 1/1000th of one percent are played professionally by entertaining musicians.

Cheers,

Gary

Mainstream players generally are part of a band, and prefer to work that way...they don't need an arranger because there are people who play the other parts.

One Man Band (arranger) players, like ourselves, obviously embrace the concept of being able to do it all on our own...some were forced into solo work (unavailability of competent reliable players, e.g.), while others simply preferred the independence and control of having an instrument capable of doing all the accompaniment parts...I'm of the latter group.

Also, the whole industry is not only changing...it's expanding. Look at YouTube, for example...not much need to "go out" and perform on stage when you can reach hundreds of viewers (audience) with your living room as your stage.

As far as a concrete reason why mainstream players don't use Arranger Keyboards? It's never even been the remotest concern of mine, so I really can't answer that one...I've been too busy playing and making money with my Arranger Keyboards to stop long enough to analyse the issue. The alleged "stigma" of using auto-accompaniment didn't keep me from being hired or creating and getting lots of studio work, and I'm not that insecure to where it matters to me what someone else thinks of what instrument I play.

I don't believe the Arranger Keyboard will go the way of the Home Organ...it replaced the Home Organ, and until something else comes along to replace what the arranger does (maybe software based arrangers will make some impact?) I think the instrument still has a reasonably bright future.

I also think that the time between new models will be longer, again reflecting the growing umber of alternate ways of making/creating music, especially on the computer.

So yes, Donny, there will quite likely be an S960, just as there will be a Tyros6...however, maybe like me, you may not find the new features on the subsequent model useful enough for your needs to make having one a necessity.

I certainly can't see any reason for replacing my Tyros4, other than its hardware wearing out and not being able to get it fixed.

Ian

UH... chas ... that was IAN, not me ... we may have the same hairdo, but it was Ian ... ...

... and to repeat myself for the 3rd or 4th time - the reason we don't see them on stage is because they ARE NOT NEEDED ON STAGE BECAUSE THE 'ARRANGER' PARTS ARE BEING PLAYED BY OTHER LIVE MUSICIANS !!!

and chas, it doesn't take years to prepare a piano for a gig, just an hour or two to tune it ... BUT, it takes years to prepare a PLAYER for a gig, and that holds true for any instrument ... including an AK ...

BUT WAIT ... I HAVE seen arranger KBs being used by bands at weddings and in clubs and they often are being used to play backing tracks to supplement the live band ... much like mp3 players might be used ... now one might question the 'pro' level of these groups, but some are busy enough that this is how they earn their living ... but, I do not expect to see top groups using one for the reason I have already stated ... and when THEY are using backing tracks they are doing so with far more sophisticated equipment ...

Tony, as I said on an earlier thread, the Arranger Keyboard's biggest detractors and critics are usually players unable, unwilling, or too lazy to adapt to the playing style needed to bring the best out of the instrument.

Having done hundreds of clinics and demos, I have learned that many competent (and usually well seasoned, and perhaps stuck in their ways) keyboard/piano/organ players can't adapt very well to the system needed to play an arranger in "style" mode (which is the instrument's primary forte)...it's a combination of "dumbing down" whereas you have to play all chord types and inversions in a limited space, and "wisening up" in that you really have to know your chord voicings very well in order to play anything reasonably complex.

Plus there are creative arranger players just like there are creative organ/piano players...it's all how one uses the tools they have chosen to create with...a "Swiss Army Knife" in skilled hands can do far more than an ordinary pocket knife in equally competent hands.

Again, its hardly an instrument we should have to defend...it does what WE want...who could ask for anything more?

Ian

Tony, in the context of being a "lazy man's tool", I'm sure you got the gist of what I meant. While you're at it, maybe you can explain why arranger players get so darn defensive and downright angry if anyone says anything that's not downright glowering about the thing. "Thou dost protest too much" comes to mind. Lots of people tell me the 'Hammond' sound is dated; I could care less; I like it. Quit trotting out the same old tired arguments about how much money you've made with your AK, or how much your audiences "love" your sound - compared to what? So dumb to take these things so personally. Even the much-loved DNJ can't make a true statement about these things without getting hammered .

Play on, baby, it's all music - more or less.

chas

The same "old tired arguments" only seem to appear after the same old tired criticisms by the same old tired critics.

'Round and 'round they go...

Ian

As I said before.Arrangers are necessary evil. I like them, but if I have a chance not to use them and play with real musicians I will take it every single time.

At least two to three times a month I have that exquisite pleasure, made all the more enjoyable by the splendid '63 Hammond B-3 I have the honor to play.

Ian

Which, of course, YOU never, ever contribute to. Must be wonderful to be so pure and so innocent ALL the time. Maybe you should give a clinic on how to accomplish that. You wouldn't even need a T4, just a BS meter.

chas

Reading your criticisms Chas is taxing my BS meter to the limit...it went right off the scale.



“Critics are like eunuchs in a harem; they know how it's done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves.”~Brendan Behan

Ian the (Mostly)Pure

Pure BS .

1 2 Cha Cha Cha...

Ian

I think I'll get myself a Gloom & Doom meter for Donny and the others that believe the world of arranger keyboards will quickly be coming to an end unless the manufacturers see things their way.

Another fun day in Paradise,

Gary

Gary, I don't see the eminent demise of the Arranger keyboard as long as there continues to be a strong European market for them, but I do see indications that their popularity and sales may be declining here in America. In fact, America probably doesn't even account for the majority of AK sales.

This could, however, produce a negative spin-off effect for American players though, in that styles and style production could/would become increasingly more European oriented (Schlagers and the like). This would lead to even more alienation by the younger players. Donny made some good points to support this; just because we may not want to hear them doesn't make them any less true.

But not to worry. Given the age of most of us, Arrangers will probably be around long after WE are gone.

chas

chas WHOA ... you have TOTALLY misread me ... and that's not the first time, but I hope it's the last, ...

First, I don't think I've EVER been defensive or angry about AKs ... I have often said that to me they are a 'necessary evil' ... a way for me to make some golf money, and feed my ego by entertaining people ... if I could turn back the clock and be playing gigs with my four best friends again, I would gladly do it ...

Second, I also don't think I've EVER trotted "out the same old tired arguments about how much money you've made with your AK" because as I said, I make enough to pay for my golf ... and if I have said that people "love" my sound, it's only because that's what THEY have said - and I've never asked them "compared to what" ... perhaps next time I will ...

Third, the emphasis I added in that post was to answer the question that had been asked several times as to why we don't see Aks being used by 'pros' or 'big name' groups ... I have given my answer many times ... perhaps you might read it again and see that I'm actually on the same side of the 'argument' as you are ...

Fourth, if AK players do get defensive, perhaps it is because there are some people on this forum who when they speak of AK players, they do so in what appears to be a degrading manner ... while many of us may not be the same caliber players as some of you, I see no reason to degrade what we are doing ...

Fifth, I LOVE the Hammond sound as 'dated' as it might be ...

Sixth, I only take personally things that are said about me or my family ... music is in the ear of the beholder - some people like what I do, some don't ... just like any other art form, and everything else in life ...

Anyone remembers, that i have been a year withouth arranger, playing software instruments and masterkeys...

In the end i came to the conclusion that the most important reason for me to come back to to arrangers was the fact that they are fun to play. I really missed that right out of the box easy set/up thing. and the provided content...

And i still can play piano parts on top of midi files, or anything else... and for creating my very own sounds, i still use the same software on top of my arranger, and a module...


As i said before, for home players and OMB, arranger keys are the smartest solution.

and all those people saying Arrangers are the easy way out.... i dont think so, there is some OMB i know that use workstations and midi files... now thats the easy way out. Midi files.



Personally i think the future for the home market is in pianos with arranger functions for the upper class, because mama wants something that looks good in her living room.

You can also use the arranger as an educational tool, giving yourself access to the inner workings of a multitude of styles and genres, which will certainly increase your value and longevity as a working musician.

In music, especially nowadays, the more versatile you are, the more you work and a good Arranger Keyboard can definitely keep you in the game.

Actually, in most cases, people who hire composers don't care how you come up with the music, as long as you do.

And, let's say a songwriter doesn't know how to program drums or play guitar, or doesn't want to...the arranger can give them the satisfaction of hearing their songs being played by a band without having to call in a drummer or bass player etc.

In short, they can realize their music fully produced without hiring musicians (expensive), renting rehearsal space (also expensive) and booking lots of studio time (even more expensive).

As far as the people who are implying the Arranger is, as you say, "the easy way out", I don’t feel there is anyone on SZ who’s musicianship is of such high caliber, to be in such a position to make those implications.


Yes, it's a lot of fun playing with other musicians, but not everyone has that luxury, and, even if they do, it is often difficult to co-ordinate the schedules of three or four other players to get together for some quality jamming. I'm experiencing such difficulties recently due to some nasty winter weather.

With the Arranger Keyboard, you have the power to decide when the jam starts and ends...you have the control over the choice of genres...you make the decisions on the simplicity (or complexity) of the arrangement.

But most of all, as you have also mentioned, "they (arrangers) are fun to play" and we can all use a bit more fun in our lives.

Ian

how about adding a new type of style called jam session..... You dictate the chords as a player, and your arranger bandbuddies play much more free then before...

Now that would be a great thing...

Tony please, PLEASE trust me on this; That statement was NOT, I repeat, NOT directed at YOU. Please forgive me if my poor phrasing made it seem that way (and I can see how it could). I didn't disassociate it with the previous statement which WAS addressed to you but not in any kind of mean-spirited way - just conversationally. Points out again the problem of trying to converse on the internet. My sincere apologies for riling you up and in the future I'll try to make sure any arrows I might happen to sling hit the right target .

chas

The people who actually do things always suffer the slings and arrows of those who don't.


Ian

Now, that would be cool...maybe also a random chord generator that would keep the chords within a certain range or key?

Maybe a more elaborate version of Yamaha's Music Finder/Repertoire features that would choose a broader range of suggested styles or tunes?

Using the Score feature, it's really cool to be able to analyse bass lines and Phrase parts...a good source of inspiration.

In Style Creator, using a combination of Style Assembly and Groove & Dynamics allows you to take parts from, for example, Swing styles, and use them in Latin or Pop rhythms.

I'm always experimenting with ways to loosen up the styles to give them an even more natural feel.

Anyone who gets bored with their Arranger Keyboard, just isn't trying.

Ian

Yamaha had something like that on the PSR-5700. You just fired up a style and pushed a button. It was neat.

Gary

Ketron has the Riff feature, that is similar.

The 5700 was quite an advanced arranger...it had what they called "Super Styles" and "Interactive Accompaniment" which made it a very interesting instrument to play. I would have bought my demo model, but it did not have On-Bass in the fingering modes, so at that time I was using a Roland product for my personal gigs...an E-70 if I recall correctly.

Still, it would be cool if they could bring back those features, especially now with the advancements in technology.

Ian

chas ... apology accepted ... yes, the written word is often misinterpreted ...

Conversationally, as said, I think that some people, when they speak - or in the case of this forum - WRITE - about AKs, they seem to be talking down and demeaning the work of OMB ...
Now, it is true that there are OMB who only use the KB as a glorified midi or mp3 player and just sing over it ... I would agree that some - many?- of these people have not worked to develop their talents the way others have ... however, there are many players/singers/entertainers here who have spent years developing their style and the delivery of their product, and while their audiences may not be the most critical judges of musical talent, these players are providing countless hours of musical entertainment to a wide variety of audiences, and to be 'degraded' for using the modern technology of AKs can become a 'personal' issue ...
For me, I have had the good fortune of playing accordion for many years - yes, I said GOOD FORTUNE of playing accordion - that allowed me to migrate to a Fender Rhodes, and then to an AK, which now allows me to go out, make a few bucks, and feed my ego by entertaining people ... but there are many times that I wish I was playing a gig with other 'live' musicians ... Just last week, I had the blessing of playing a gig with the sax player from our band in NY ... the last time we played together was last year at this same gig, but no one in the audience would have known that ... in fact, when I told one friend who was there, he couldn't believe it - he thought we played together all the time ... but that's what playing for 26 years will do for you ...

But, back to the OT ... I still say we don't see Aks on big stages because they are not needed there ... but there are plenty of stages where they are needed and provide a valuable tool for entertainment as well as a good tool in a studio environment ...

(The fact is, the WHOLE industry has changed, so much of today's music is 'manufactured', not played, recordings are made without the musicians and singers ever even seeing each other, ... like much of life, the personal interaction is getting less and less, and yes, I think that is really sad.)

Stay cool ...

On the subject of a 'jam' style, I really think that would be cool... my KN1000 had what I think was called 'Dynamic Accomp' or something like that, that 'enhanced' the style depending on the velocity of the Right Hand playing ...
Speaking of enhanced styles, I would STILL like to find a KORG Jazz Ballad style that would have a 'Double Time' variation in it ... is that asking too much?!? ...

So with all this talk of the demise of the arranger keyboard, nobody has said what the new alternative is for the keyboardist that wants full sounding backing without a preset backing track. So what will take the place of arranger keyboards ?

VArranger3

If you want to input chords before the gig (Or during the gig t) so as to create something unique, just incorporate Band in a Box into an arranger, and the jobs done.

Bill

It allways wondered me why they havent implemented that feature yet in BiaB... (yes i know why most current styles will not work realtime, because they are designed in such a way that they need to know chords ahead of time to make intlligent chord changes)

Bill,
Do you mean....using a style (or styles for that matter)..have a chord sequence for a particular song already in the arranger so you can just use both hands & play along???

Hi Lee

If you want to do that you can do, however Band in a Box creates a unique style around your chord sequence and playing preferences, (Not just sequencing the boring and repetitive styles that arrangers use) thus the song backing becomes unique to you.

For live play think of the chord sequencer (Actually a loop player) that Roland introduced, you activate and record the chords and when you press stop, instead of just repeating the chords with the pre-set style, (As it is currently done) it creates a jam session that matches you preferences. (You can then play both hands if you wish to take the lead)

Of course if you want to sound like everybody else, then just stick to the current style system, and never stand out from the crowd. (If you look at top arranger performers they don’t use the standard styles, they modify or create them themselves, which is why they have to turn work down as they don’t have the time to meet the demand, whereas those that don’t are assumed by the general punter to just be doing karaoke)

Bill

http://www.pgmusic.com/videos.bbwin.htm

I can't see how a 'JAM' session with random style...works to play any particular song?
It might work for Jaz (don't care for Jaz myself) because there is kind of...'lets all practice'...going on and not really a song most of the time.

Maybe give me an example video??

... it is only after you've listened and listened that you BEGIN to understand a little about what is going on ...

So is it kind of like KARMA? I have seen/heard how that works.
What type of music would it apply to?
Any examples?

The problem is not what it is, but that it isnt.. yet...

Wow!!!......who knew so many people learned so much from Namm 2015 ....just sayin'

Well, there was a lot to learn... But not on arrangers...

This has been an interesting thread and you are all correct in your assumptions. I have a slightly different slant on Arrangers because they are perfect devices for songwriters... and not many songwriters in the States even understand that they exist. Those of you who make a living (or attempt to do so) playing at different venues, clubs, weddings, nursing homes, social events or parties... understand their versatility.

Those of you who enjoy all the variables of VSTs or OMB... or prefer to play an instrument (piano/organ/etc.) for the pure artistry of it... are all correct. It's whatever works best for you to create artistry or to generate new songs... or to simply be able to entertain a crowd with the versatility of a high-end arranger or DAW (no matter the brand)... it is all good.

The real problem is that music is becoming an undervalued commodity. There are too many artists, songwriters, performers, musicians and people associated with the music industry... and too few opportunities to garner even a small segment of that market... no matter the genre... unless you possess a talent of immense proportions... and the drive to make the sacrifices needed to clamber to the top of the pyramid. Don't forget the money involved... and the thousands of doors that are closed to all of us... because the market for music is over-saturated on a broad front.

iTunes will sell you just about anybody's song for .99 cents. In a few years, it will be .50 cents... and Apple will take half, leaving us to accept a future of diminishing returns. Streamig is an even darker scheme and it certainly does not favor the music maker or creator.

I wish all of you well... no matter which method you use to create your music... whether it be "covers" or original songs or compositions. The arranger is not part of the problem and neither are the other instruments or electronic devices and programs available for creating music.

We are all in this together to one degree or another... and until drastic changes occur in which our products are made available to the general public still buying music... we are in trouble. You had better love what you do... because less than 10% of us will ever make a real living in music.

All my best to all of you,

Dave Rice

Wow Dave, nicely said. And it's so refreshing to see a well-thought-out, beautifully articulated, non-bitter, non-bragging, non-bashing, post for a change; one that gets to the REAL problems in the industry.

Dave says, and I quote, " There are too many artists, songwriters, performers, musicians and people associated with the music industry...". What Dave was too polite to say was, "There are too many NON-TALENTED or marginally-talented......" people flooding the industry. Of course this only applies to 'professional' artists or those aspiring to be. Amateurs and home players can do whatever their wallets allow them to do.

One could make the argument that Arranger keyboards, along with 'loops', sequences, samples, BIAB, and other 'third-party helpers' have the potential to exacerbate the problem by giving non-musicians or amateur-level musicians the capability of producing results that are acceptable to an increasingly jaded and non-discriminating public. And although this may create some opportunities for some individuals that didn't exist before, it is, as Dave pointed out, bad for the industry and for true working professionals who have spent years honing their craft.

On the positive side, technology (let's get away from Arranger Keyboards, music creation programs, etc. and call it what it really is - TECHNOLOGY) almost always has the potential to make something good even better. However, a 40 yr old Steinway is still going to sound better than even the best sample played via a keyboard controller. The subtle nuances of a great instrument simply can't be captured with electrons.

Where I may disagree with Dave somewhat, is how it affects songwriters, the REAL music creators. I think good songs will emerge regardless of the process used to create them. Getting them out into the marketplace is another story however, and I'm sure the plethora of material being generated as a result of the new technology, makes it increasingly difficult to distinguish oneself from the crowd. The good news is that genuine talent, as in the past, will always rise to the top.

As usual, JMO.

chas

I think arrangers loops and all that stuff can help a creative person a lot, not as much as a creative tool, but as the means of getting inspiration for a new creation..


And then there is the fact that musicians vallue other things then the publicum..

I have two friends that make their money as an OMB. One is the best musician i have ever met, playing evevrything live on a stage piano and even performing his own songs, but he has an average voice at best... The other one can barely play a chord on his arranger, but has a top knotch voice and is a born entertainer... Now guess who makes the most money on his gigs?


And then there is all those deejays creating their own dance music in their daws, and making millions of dollars with just a simple beat and half a mellody. While a highly educated Jazz pianist with outright skills has a 2nd job as wayter because he cant make enough money from playing music.


Personally i think its not the musicians making the big money anymore, its the singers and the deejays, and the rest is nothing but support...