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#402114 - 05/07/15 03:33 PM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: ]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5520
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
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The BK-9 is a great arranger in many respects, but marketed dismally. The two screens are a put off until you bother to read the manual to understand that they act in concert to one another in making changes much faster than menu based buttons.
The only peeve I have is that Roland was too lazy or cheap to hone their sounds, unlike Yamaha e.g. that has polished their OOTB sounds.
It is definitely a keeper IMO, but takes a bit of work.
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact
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#402138 - 05/08/15 08:01 AM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: ]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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I have a suspicion Roland is getting out of the Arranger Keyboard market, maybe for good...maybe not, but I feel it's the former.
I thought the BK-9 was already an extraordinary bargain...76 keys, nice action, terrific organ (with drawbar control) and very decent Leslie sim, and good strong basic sounds like acoustic piano, Rhodes, guitars, strings etc., not to mention the relatively large style library.
They certainly have the basics for an exceptionally good top-line arranger, especially if they borrow from their synthesizer line.
Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#402158 - 05/08/15 09:57 AM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: TedS]
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Senior Member
Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
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Start up the rumor mill... I can think of at least two other explanations:
(A) We're seeing the caboose at the end of the train: Roland's new management is getting out of the arranger business, leaving the BK-9 an orphan with no further development planned. Think Technics, GEM, etc.
(B) The factory is letting them lower the MAP to clear out the distribution chain in advance of a new model.
IMO it's not a random development. We'll see... The new Roland management is currently placing Roland back on top where innovation is important..... For the young that want to toy with music, they have added the aira range, which is selling very very good For the old time synth fans they created the JD-XA, which combines a real analog synth with digital top sounds.. They are trying to make instruments that are espescially fum to play, and are currently succeeding at that... So whats up next from Roland, a new arranger? Or a new workstation? Or something different? Noboddy knows, but i am quite sure that whatever they bring next is created with the fun of the musician in mind.. I think that Roland will keep surprising us in the time to come, the new management seem to know what musicians want, they stopped selling more of the same, as that was what they did for the last few years.. If they decide to ever make a new totl arranger, it will be spectacular for sure...
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#402206 - 05/09/15 01:30 AM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: ianmcnll]
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Admin
Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6483
Loc: Ventura CA USA
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I have a suspicion Roland is getting out of the Arranger Keyboard market, maybe for good...maybe not, but I feel it's the former.
I thought the BK-9 was already an extraordinary bargain...76 keys, nice action, terrific organ (with drawbar control) and very decent Leslie sim, and good strong basic sounds like acoustic piano, Rhodes, guitars, strings etc., not to mention the relatively large style library.
They certainly have the basics for an exceptionally good top-line arranger, especially if they borrow from their synthesizer line.
Ian I don't understand why manufacturers separate their arranger keyboards from their workstations. We are simply talking about extended software features. All workstations could support arranger keyboard features. All it would require would be how to reassign button functions in arranger vs workstation modes. This aint rocket science. I would welcome a workstation I could switch into arranger mode when I needed it.
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#402207 - 05/09/15 01:45 AM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: Nigel]
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Senior Member
Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
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I have a suspicion Roland is getting out of the Arranger Keyboard market, maybe for good...maybe not, but I feel it's the former.
I thought the BK-9 was already an extraordinary bargain...76 keys, nice action, terrific organ (with drawbar control) and very decent Leslie sim, and good strong basic sounds like acoustic piano, Rhodes, guitars, strings etc., not to mention the relatively large style library.
They certainly have the basics for an exceptionally good top-line arranger, especially if they borrow from their synthesizer line.
Ian I don't understand why manufacturers separate their arranger keyboards from their workstations. We are simply talking about extended software features. All workstations could support arranger keyboard features. All it would require would be how to reassign button functions in arranger vs workstation modes. This aint rocket science. I would welcome a workstation I could switch into arranger mode when I needed it. I agree with you... The TOTL arranger workstation should be a Synth workstation with styles on top of that... just add the style player and then allow players to buy style content sepperately form the allready excisting collections of styles... That way workstation players dont feel like they are playing for contemporary styles they are never going to use... Maybe that is what Roland will do to make both arrangers and workstations fun again... Ome TOTL bith workstation as well as arranger.. This way they could concentrate onproducing a single product instead of two..
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#402208 - 05/09/15 01:48 AM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: Bachus]
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Admin
Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6483
Loc: Ventura CA USA
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I have a suspicion Roland is getting out of the Arranger Keyboard market, maybe for good...maybe not, but I feel it's the former.
I thought the BK-9 was already an extraordinary bargain...76 keys, nice action, terrific organ (with drawbar control) and very decent Leslie sim, and good strong basic sounds like acoustic piano, Rhodes, guitars, strings etc., not to mention the relatively large style library.
They certainly have the basics for an exceptionally good top-line arranger, especially if they borrow from their synthesizer line.
Ian I don't understand why manufacturers separate their arranger keyboards from their workstations. We are simply talking about extended software features. All workstations could support arranger keyboard features. All it would require would be how to reassign button functions in arranger vs workstation modes. This aint rocket science. I would welcome a workstation I could switch into arranger mode when I needed it. I agree with you... The TOTL arranger workstation should be a Synth workstation with styles on top of that... just add the style player and then allow players to buy style content sepperately form the allready excisting collections of styles... That way workstation players dont feel like they are playing for contemporary styles they are never going to use... Maybe that is what Roland will do to make both arrangers and workstations fun again... Ome TOTL bith workstation as well as arranger.. This way they could concentrate onproducing a single product instead of two.. Exactly !!!! Really hope Yamaha, Korg and Roland read this thread and realize this is the future of workstations with style support. Whoever does this will be a winner. Workstation users will love the extended functionality and arranger users will love the workstation features ... everyone wins. It will increase sales in workstations that will more than cover not having separate arranger sales.
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#402210 - 05/09/15 03:33 AM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: ]
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Senior Member
Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1162
Loc: Oradea, RO
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While all this will make sense, from the perspective of a few, like some of us here, still most of the users will prefer either synth/workstation or arranger instruments. The market is specialized and a very narrow slice will really benefit of the combination. It just so happens that we are in that slice...
Those that use an arranger will use just few of the deep synth editing, just as the reverse is true, many synth players will have no or limited use for auto-accompaniment features.
I think this "bring together" can be done in the realm of software instruments, once one of the major players will finally introduce a completely software based arranger, like Dan's vArranger.
In my view, that will be the next major milestone. A software arranger, with sounds included, with all the editing tools needed for both arranger specifics (styles, pads, performances) and synth specific (deep editing, grooves, arrpegios, step sequencers, all that.) And that could be indeed modular, so you will only get what you need/want.
All this controlled through the convenient touchscreen interfaces and a simple MIDI controller.
There are many steps that were done already by various, but until it comes from a big name I don't see it becoming a serious alternative. Not because of lack of quality or features, but simply because of the trust that people need to gain in this. Nowadays harware can very well provide the bases for such a development - we'll see how long it will take to see it in reality.
On the other hand, obviously it will not be impossible at all to add to an arranger keyboard some of the features found in synth workstation, like arrps, we all know even some cheap Yamaha keyboards have that already. Hence my conclusion - it is not a profitable/wise move to unify these two, from the manufacturer point of view.
Again, we are only a narrow slice of the market... It will take a brave move from anyone big who will do this, and probably will take an innovative spirit, not a rational market decission.
I am thinking Roland... It seems they wouldn't have much to loose. They could play this big card and why not, turn upside down all the market.
_________________________
Yamaha S770, Studio One 3, EMU 0404USB, ESI, ATH, Dell. And others.
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#402211 - 05/09/15 05:58 AM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: adimatis]
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Senior Member
Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
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While all this will make sense, from the perspective of a few, like some of us here, still most of the users will prefer either synth/workstation or arranger instruments. The market is specialized and a very narrow slice will really benefit of the combination. It just so happens that we are in that slice...
Those that use an arranger will use just few of the deep synth editing, just as the reverse is true, many synth players will have no or limited use for auto-accompaniment features.
I think this "bring together" can be done in the realm of software instruments, once one of the major players will finally introduce a completely software based arranger, like Dan's vArranger.
In my view, that will be the next major milestone. A software arranger, with sounds included, with all the editing tools needed for both arranger specifics (styles, pads, performances) and synth specific (deep editing, grooves, arrpegios, step sequencers, all that.) And that could be indeed modular, so you will only get what you need/want.
All this controlled through the convenient touchscreen interfaces and a simple MIDI controller.
There are many steps that were done already by various, but until it comes from a big name I don't see it becoming a serious alternative. Not because of lack of quality or features, but simply because of the trust that people need to gain in this. Nowadays harware can very well provide the bases for such a development - we'll see how long it will take to see it in reality.
On the other hand, obviously it will not be impossible at all to add to an arranger keyboard some of the features found in synth workstation, like arrps, we all know even some cheap Yamaha keyboards have that already. Hence my conclusion - it is not a profitable/wise move to unify these two, from the manufacturer point of view.
Again, we are only a narrow slice of the market... It will take a brave move from anyone big who will do this, and probably will take an innovative spirit, not a rational market decission.
I am thinking Roland... It seems they wouldn't have much to loose. They could play this big card and why not, turn upside down all the market. True, But developing a single instrument is so much more cheaper then developing two or three different ones.... And thats something both musicians as well as developers will have something to win.. Stating that you dont want to pay for something you dontbuse will not hold true, if in the end the product with all those more features will be the cheaper one.
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#402213 - 05/09/15 06:39 AM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: adimatis]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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The market is specialized and a very narrow slice will really benefit of the combination. It just so happens that we are in that slice...
Hence my conclusion - it is not a profitable/wise move to unify these two, from the manufacturer point of view.
Excellent observation. We are seeing a tiny bit of exploration into Arranger/Synthesizer combination with some companies (mainly Yamaha and Casio) adding features like arps and real-time ADSR controls to their entry level instruments. I had a Yamaha PSR-E443 for evaluation, and I was very impressed at the surprisingly rich tones I could get out of it with the two (assignable)real-time control knobs that let me filter and adjust the sound just like an analog synthesizer, including being able to get the filter to self oscillate. I'd hoped to see these features (with more advanced control) on the mid-line and top-end Arrangers, but so far, only entry level for some reason...again, I think it's to test the market. Baby steps, I suppose. Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#402218 - 05/09/15 07:36 AM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: ]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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OK, all of those that do extensive editing raise your hands. C'mon, don't be bashful, raise your hands. WOW! That many, huh.  Gary 
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#402222 - 05/09/15 07:45 AM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: ]
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rosetree
Unregistered
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#402225 - 05/09/15 07:59 AM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: ]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
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.....and then there is the physical thing. What kind of platform would house this super combo board? The organ-leaning types would want 'waterfall' keys with an organ-type touch, while the pianist in the group would definitely want 'weighted' keybeds with a full '88, while the synth player would probably want non-weighted or semi-weighted keys. The OMB's and older players (often one and the same  ) are concerned about weight; the home player or studio owner, much less so. 25, 49, 61, 73, 76, 88; hmmmm. The point is, even if a board had every functional feature for everyone, the physical platform would still present insurmountable problems, all of which brings us back to exactly where we are RIGHT NOW; a different instrument for different players needs. Also, it stops a lot of 'overbuying'. If you think we only explore 10% of our instrument's potential now, what do think it would be on our new 'super board'. How soon after purchase would Cassp have his back on the market . Again, JMO. chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
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#402227 - 05/09/15 08:13 AM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: cgiles]
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Senior Member
Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1314
Loc: london,ontario.canada
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Unfortunatelly things are going the other way that discussed here. Our last TOTL arranger even came out without a sound editor. And it took over a year just to get some kind of sound editor which is not even close to lets say Motif sound editor. And most of the people even said hallelujah. Let's face it, majority of arranger players are home amateurs, and they'd rather let instrument play by it self then actually learning to play an instrument. For some reason it's easier to learn all of the combinations for two finger chords than taking the same time and learning actual chords. And "transpose" button came out of heaven .
Unfortunately I don't think it will get better, I think it will get worse. We will loose even more features. They will dumb us down even more and we will still like them and we will still buy new keyboards thinking this one will make us a better player.
There is no reason to blame these companies, it's all our fault. Just like with everything else in life.
_________________________
MIKIMIKI
TYROS 5,BEHRINGER X32PRODUCER,YAMAHA DSR112,JBL PRX618s XLF,EV ZLX12p,SENNHEISER E945,....ETC
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#402229 - 05/09/15 08:35 AM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: mirza]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Let's face it, majority of arranger players are home amateurs, and they'd rather let instrument play by it self then actually learning to play an instrument. For some reason it's easier to learn all of the combinations for two finger chords than taking the same time and learning actual chords. And "transpose" button came out of heaven .
Unfortunately I don't think it will get better, I think it will get worse. We will loose even more features. They will dumb us down even more and we will still like them and we will still buy new keyboards thinking this one will make us a better player.
There is no reason to blame these companies, it's all our fault. Just like with everything else in life.
Unfortunetly, much of this is true! In my work as a clinician over the years, it was actually rare to find an arranger owner who knew how to edit styles, even the most basic approach...which is why I spent some of my clinic time showing how relatively easy it is to make your own. Still, the majority of users will prefer to buy new styles (or try to get them free), and many trade up to a new instrument just to get a few new accompaniments...often styles they could have easily made themselves from the existing styles on their previous instrument. Those using the instrument like several of our SZ'ers (playing pro on stage) are the minority...as you say, the arranger buyer is usually a home player, and, therefore, the instrument is designed to be easy to play, with effortless to obtain (and fairly impressive) results...very few will want to customize, and of those who do, the majority won't stay with it for long (and the hard core tweakers will buy a synth). That's why I keep going to jam sessions; to keep up the playing skills that don't get used much on the arranger...it's easy to get lazy and let things slide. However, the arranger (especially one as elaborate as my T4) is still a major tool for my needs...a veritable Swiss Army Knife, in my opinion. Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#402232 - 05/09/15 09:28 AM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: ]
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Senior Member
Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
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I'm quite happy with the current group of arrangers. I could easily use any of the top or middle line from any of the companies. It comes down to features and ease of use. They all sound good. I've always preferred Ketron drums. Korgs are good but can't really sound quite as good as the audio drums of course. No problem with Roland drums, but their arrangers leave out some invaluable features such as simple break/fill. How can they not incorporate that, when it has been a feature of ALL other brands since their inception? I do prefer everything built in: great harmonizer, text and lyrics display, large color touch screen, multitude of styles available and great sounds. I prefer joystick, but wheels are o.k. if they are properly located. User-assignable buttons or sliders are great. Ability to use a multi-switch foot pedal is essential. Other people may have different priorities, but I'm thinking whatever those priorities may be, they are pretty much available these days. They type music I play (and the vast majority of arranger players play) calls for great emulations of traditional instruments ranging from pianos to brass to woodwinds, organs, guitars, even vocal sounds, etc. Few of us are interested in creating or using synth-type exotic sounds, although there are a lot built in to modern arrangers. Other than auditioning them, I've never found a use for one in reality, because I don't play the type of music that calls for them. I think the market for a hybrid keyboard would be very limited, but then there may be a NEW market that could be created that would bring younger people to the fold. Rarely a week goes by that I don't have a musician ask about my keyboard, remarking that they didn't know such technology even existed. Sorry for rambling. Can't wait for the SD7 to arrive! Maybe it will keep me alive a little longer! My boat is 16 years old, my Expedition is 8 years old, my golf clubs are several years old, crap even my young wife is getting older, but the TOOLS of my trade WILL be current and the best available to suit my needs!
_________________________
DonM
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#402239 - 05/09/15 11:16 AM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: ]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
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Since we're always trying to bring 'young people' into the arranger market, we have to assume that most of us agree that it's and 'ol' folks' machine. But here's the thing. Most seniors haven't figured out their smartphones yet, despite their having been on the market for at least ten years (Boo is still using the last known flip phone ). And if you think that's bad, wait until we all switch over to the SmartWatch. Most seniors will have a nervous breakdown just trying to figure out what time it is . A few car manufacturers produced cars with automatic transmissions that could be manually shifted, but how popular are they and how many of the people that you know personally, have one. Not even the Swiss like the Swiss Army knife (only Boy Scouts.....and they grow out of it as soon as they mature). But hey, maybe some visionary company (Technics, General Music, Silvertone (Sears)), will build the Super SynthArrangerWorkstation. Donny and DonM will buy one; Russ will buy one but probably won't open the box for a couple of years . chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
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#402240 - 05/09/15 11:37 AM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: DonM]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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I'm quite happy with the current group of arrangers. I could easily use any of the top or middle line from any of the companies.
That's pretty much it for me...my older Tyros4 will keep me going for many years and I don't see replacing it unless there are eventual hardware parts that wear out and are no longer available. However, I can understand your interest in the SD-7, especially since you Have used Ketron in the past...having a new set of styles and sounds sometimes is refreshing..."a change is as good as a rest", so to speak. I personally don't see the need for anything additional other than what my present TOTL arranger gives me...I'm still exploring and coming up with some new things...now it's stacking up to three of the Tyros4's synth and pad voices, changing their panning, filtering, and effects and using them in soundtracks for a buddy who is doing voice over CD's. Some of these combinations rival what we were getting in the studio using several midi'd synths, both analog and digital. There's lots of life in the old beast yet.  Sadly, Don, there those who have purchased high end arrangers who will never fully appreciate the power and versatility of these instruments. Their loss, I suppose.  Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#402247 - 05/09/15 01:44 PM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: tony mads usa]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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A few car manufacturers produced cars with automatic transmissions that could be manually shifted, but how popular are they and how many of the people that you know personally, have one.
chas  2003 BMW 325ci ragtop ... I use the 'manual' shift whenever I am on local roads. which is about 40% of the time ... Cleaned it up yesterday, and been 'scootin' around most of the day ... I don't mean to hijack the thread, but chas asked ...  I use the 4-speed autobox in my Honda Accord manually as well, especially in the winter whereas I can have the transmission start in 2nd gear on ice by selecting "2". I also like shifting between D4 and D3 when I'm on curvy roads to utilize engine braking. They wouldn't have put these positions on the selector quadrant if'n they didn't want people to use them...mmmm? Of course, Tony, we arranger players are very progressive and adventurous, are we not?  Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#402248 - 05/09/15 01:44 PM
Re: Dramatic price drop of Roland BK-9
[Re: cgiles]
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Senior Member
Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
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Since we're always trying to bring 'young people' into the arranger market, we have to assume that most of us agree that it's and 'ol' folks' machine. But here's the thing. Most seniors haven't figured out their smartphones yet, despite their having been on the market for at least ten years (Boo is still using the last known flip phone ). And if you think that's bad, wait until we all switch over to the SmartWatch. Most seniors will have a nervous breakdown just trying to figure out what time it is . A few car manufacturers produced cars with automatic transmissions that could be manually shifted, but how popular are they and how many of the people that you know personally, have one. Not even the Swiss like the Swiss Army knife (only Boy Scouts.....and they grow out of it as soon as they mature). But hey, maybe some visionary company (Technics, General Music, Silvertone (Sears)), will build the Super SynthArrangerWorkstation. Donny and DonM will buy one; Russ will buy one but probably won't open the box for a couple of years . chas Sit down with a MOXF its under €1000 and offers younger players so much more then an arranger... The arps in these workstations make up for the lack of styles, with pattern mode and audio loops, it offers as much or maybe even more fun at the same sound quallity of a tyros.... Same goes for Motif XF or Korg Kronos ( with Karma) i dont think you will ever make these younger people enthousiastic for arrangers, because their workstations allready come close to arrangers.
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