Hi,

I just read somewhere that Yamaha has put out a patent for the ability to also be able to handle audio in a new form of midi. Not too long ago, I would have been seriously exited by this.

However, having both the Audya & the S950, and having spent much time with each of them, I honestly no longer notice the difference between good midi & real audio. I never thought I would say this, but after spending serious time with the S950 & tweaking it as much as I could, the Audya is starting to sound rather dull. Also, I'm beginning to notice the same audio loops in some different sections of the various styles. And this is against the S950 & not even against the Tyros5! The ONLY thing that will improve that would be better styles that would be able to compete with those of Yamaha. The Audya is an AWESOME machine, but seriously lacks the versatility of the thousands of very good Yamaha styles.

It's ALL about good styles. a GOOD midi only style can do just about everything that audio can, and in this department Yamaha is the absolute current leader - PERIOD! And what Yamaha lacks in ordinary midi, they make up for with their enhanced Mega, Cool, Sa1, Sa2 & other similar midi voices. This is totally another concept than audio, but it yields nearly the same results. Then they spend the rest of their efforts in creating extra ordinary styles, with intros & endings to match the quality of the style. And they stretch their Mega guitar technology to the limits where it is present in the majority of their styles. And boy, what a difference it makes for...

In any case, just my two cents worth on this subject. And I always put down proof of every statement I make. If you do not agree with me, lay down some of your personal, live, one take performances on the "Why I like my brand..." topic so that we can compare.

I don't want to post this over there as it would turn it into another "mine is better than yours" thread & this will take out all sincere & objective perspective from it.

Henni

Hi again,

I personally think that the real dilemma when one starts to play with pure audio is the cost to create these loops against the cost to just use Mega technology to update any ordinary midi loop. Hence Yamaha has thousands of good Mega midi guitars present in their styles. It does not take real musicians & a studio recording for any new variation.

So starting off by using pure audio has a serious future cost impact and this might cause it to loose out against the competition over a period of time.

I think whatever Yamaha is currently developing, is the way to go forward to stay competitive in this business of arrangers. If Ketron would mix something similar to Mega voices with their current audio technology, it opens up the doors for all sorts of improvements cost wise for the future.

Henni

Hi again,

The outstanding thing about the Audya is the ability to simply browse in audio or midi loops into any part of any style. This is unique to an ordinary arranger. The only problem is that this novelty starts to wear off after hearing some of these over & over in the various styles over a period of time. It's almost like being able to browse a very high quality multipad anywhere into any Yamaha style which of course cannot be done.

Hearing that the SD7 might also have multipads shortly, is also another step in the right direction. So, the possibilities are there. To bad not as many individuals are laying down free style modification software & updated & modified styles as is the case with Yamaha. One thing in favor of any arranger manufacturer is the ability to be able to share improvements amongst the end users themselves which hardly is the case with Ketron users, mostly due to a lack of tools & styles copy protected to the specific arranger as per serial number..

Also, I think that if 3rd party Ketron style programmers let go the un-required need to specifically have new audio drums or guitars for any new styles, that many new exiting styles might just suddenly become available for it.

Okay, I'm no expert on anything & the above simply is my personal take on this matter.

Henni

Hi Henni

You have come around to what most have been saying since the Audya came out, in that Midi is more flexible than Audio and when combined with VSTs the sound is just as good.

There is nothing wrong with Audio (It is used regularly in the professional scene, however it is fully editable just like Midi) but requires good hardware and software to make the most of it, unfortunately hardware arrangers use hardware that is so old it is just not up to the job, but after having said that, if the arranger manufactures used standard audio files (As are used in all professional Studios etc.) rather than their own format, then all the editing work could be done externally with the finished article loaded back in to the arranger.

Yamaha styles

For me personally I find them to be the least realistic of any manufacture (They also make it difficult to edit or change the Mega/SA voices) as they are overblown, with everything overemphasized, which while sounding great in isolation (Which is ideal for the home player market for which they have always been designed), but if you listen regularly to live bands you soon realise just how unrealistic and artificial the styles are. (Other manufactures are much better at giving a more realistic backing sound; however it requires more understanding of music to play them as you have to think as if you are part of a band, rather than solo)

Intros and endings are great for impressing the neighbours (At least for the first few styles) but are not used by professionals as they are unchanging and lead you into their way of doing things, rather developing you own style of play. (If you listen to 10 different professional musicians playing the same tune they will all have their own individual style, however if you listen to 10 arranger players doing the same then they will all sound the same, as they are following the style rather than doing their own thing)

As Gary has said many times though, if it’s just solo entertainment you want, then deep routed skills would just get in the way, (Unless you were playing to musicians of course) so canned styles do have their place.

Anyway that’s my view and I am sure others will have different views, which is what makes life so interesting.

Regards

Bill

Bill..

That was a nice read....


Ron

Hi again,

I guess my statement on another thread that the Audya was for serious musicians is then correct. To you & other pros, it must then be as close to the real thing as what is currently available as it uses REAL, live recorded audio parts by real & qualified musicians for many sections of it's styles. I'm amazed that more over here do not own Audyas then...

As for me, I like the WOW things more, even if only to impress the neighbors. But then I was never a serious or qualified musician to start off with. All I know I have more fun with my little S950 than I ought to have. And similar to some comments regarding the new SD7, I can truly say that the S950 makes me WANT to play her.

Cheers & tx for your interesting post,

Henni

Henni, I tend to agree with everything you've said. And, having listened to all the demos from ALL the latest and greatest, I'll stick with my S-950.

I guess I must be having too much fun, too,

Gary

Interesting points, all. I guess it all depends on what you want in an arranger.

Wow,quite a quote. Sorry, but I have take issue with some of your remarks. Maybe a little harsh towards Yamaha users. Yes, these modern arrangers are geared mostly towards the home market, but the TOTL versions are becoming so advanced that more pro and semi-pro users are adding them to their home studios and using the full aspects of the arrangers capabilities towards recordings and live performances.

As far as arranger styles are concerned. Yes, the styles are mostly setup and presented for the home market and hobbiest. All the major manufacturers have some styles that are based on a specific popular song. Yamaha TOTL arrangers mostly sets the Intro 2 and 3 for a totally different song and usually obscure enough to use with other songs, especially if you hint your alternative song intro with some right hand melody parts over top the intro play. Some songs work by using the ending part as the intro. So there are flexibility in using the panel styles (Yamaha).

An arranger keyboard is exactly that, a keyboard with arranger capabilities which goes far beyond simply chording your preset styles and sound like you are being accompanied by a live band. You want an arranger with all the tools and realistic voices you can use in your creative process. Styles are only a small part of it and are there to help rearrange, borrow parts, and manipulate to your liking.

On my Tyros 5, all but two of my preset styles have been modified to one extent or another with parts, voices, volumes, parameters, and DSPs changed to suit my needs. I don't feel any limitations whatsoever or boxed in ("canned"). I chose Yamaha for this reason, freedom to create, yet one of the best sounding and realistic TOTL arranger yet (for my needs).

The closest arranger, to me, with overall features, sound and quality compared to the Yamaha Tyros 5 is the Korg PA3x (LE).For me, the more "live feel" presented by the Korg product has more to do with the default DSP settings Korg and Yamaha chooses in their products. We should not be limited to the out-of-the-box characteristics of the arranger or brand, but adjust to our needs or preferences. I tried the Korg, I would be quite happy owning one, but all my time and investment has been spent on mastering the Yamaha O.S., and love the flexibility, availability and quality of the Yamaha style library.

The Tyros 4, has that heavier processed sound (factory default), yet Korg leans towards backing off the master reverb and other DSP effects. This naturally will give you a more "live feel" to the backing styles, yet either brand can be easily altered to give a more drier or processed overall sound. Yamaha has backed off the more processed (CD like) overall sound on the Tyros 5, with some Tyros 4 owners choosing to keep their Tyros 4 because of their preference towards the default level of DSP processing. While I enjoy the high quality Yamaha DSPs, the Tyros 5 has a nice overall balance between the Tyros 4 and the Korg PA3x.

If anything, you want a "live" sound to your style or mix, check out the new "Real Reverb" DSP on the Tyros 5. Realistic ambience control to simulate the (live) sound enviroment, to your style and final mix. The tools the the TOTL arrangers are all there. No excuse to blame a "canned" like sound or style. Yamaha has the best chord tracking I have tried. Chords and chord interpretation must be accurate or your "live" feel disappears with unrealistic style play. The Yamaha Pro and Session styles are a pleasure to modify and play along with.

Sounding "live" also has to do with sounding real with authentic sounding voices and behavior nuances of the voice that minics the actual instrument or drum kit. Enhanced style programming to better facilitate the latest voice technology, with Mega, and SA style voicing, in the case for Yamaha. It is not difficult to change your Mega or SA style voices on the Tyros 5. All style Mega voices are now in the same folder, easy to modify and save your style in Style Creator, plus you hear your changes on-the-fly for the best suited voice or change. These voice technologies are mind boggling on the full orchestral and standard styles with realistic brass, strings, guitar, vocal and choir parts with the appropriate SA and Mega voices with the high quality DSPs. Some arrangers fall apart with the more complex styles, because the voices and programming fall short. So while one can argue that their simple styles sound real or live (usually because of the drum part being the best part), as you add more voices or style parts, the style becomes more unauthentic sounding and dull.

Basically, it is true, you get what you pay for. You have to decide for yourself, what budget needs, what features, sounds, and capabilities of the keyboard is going to do for you. All the major arranger brands do the modern technology justice. You have to research and decide what works for you.

Marcus

Just adding some demos

Korg Pa3x LE Style Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yaow18QTXXM

Choose Your Style: The Pa3X LE High Performance Arranger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x7YZGNuMt4&list=RD2x7YZGNuMt4#t=3

Kraft Music - Yamaha Tyros5 Performance with Peter Baartmans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYEiFBaKh1M

For now, I’m sticking with Yamaha. I just don’t want to learn another operating system. However, I do enjoy checking out the demos and videos of all the competition. They all sound professional to me----but not good enough to want to switch brands.