make it stooooooooooooop ...

Yes, those are pretty bad demos for the VH2, in the Tyros 4 and Tyros 5. Okay, T C Helicon VH beats Yamaha here, but Yamaha gives you a lot of parameter settings to optimize what you want and what fits your voice the best.

Those demo singers were in desperate need of the following VH2 settings. One setting T C Helicon cannot beat.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0hgTkeP38do

Marcus

1O MINUTES OF ABSOLUTE TORTURE followed by 4 more minutes of barely acceptable. I have always found VH2 to be kinder to the female voice.

How can Yamaha continue to incorporate totally substandard vocal processing in such an expensive keyboard? I would have bought a PSR S950 until I heard VH2. Luckily the store had a 750 shipped to them by mistake. I bought it and continued to use my dedicated floor pedal Digitech. If I had saved for a Tyros I would be very upset when I started to sing through it. Where I live the music stores would never stock a Tyros as they don't want to get stuck with such a high dollar item. Consequently, you would have to order one without ever hearing it. Tyros sounds great as long as you just play it. If you're a one man act and sing forget it!

God Bless,
Don

Gary, don't shoot me! You seem to have made it work for you. Never heard Donny when he had his 950 but I'm guessing he used the harmony sparingly if at all.

In this Demo, Robby, a Yamaha rep explains that he creates User Harmonies because he finds the factory presets distort. In another of his demos he created a midi track to trigger the harmony. The other demos he has have the distorted phasey sound. These two where he has put in the time to improve the harmony yielded a reasonable result. However Digitech or Helicon give you good results without having to mess around. Robbie also says singing too close, having keyboard speaker volume to high and a less than perfect mike will also yield poor results. Sounds like way to much work for a singer who needs good harmony available at the touch of a footswitch.



God Bless,
Don

Robbie is right. Additionally, singing through any harmonizer requires an entirely different approach to your vocals - it's a completely different art than just belting out a song with a powerful voice through your hand held mic and using pull away techniques. Voice control is of paramount importance, yet it is often completely neglected by the singer when the vocal harmonizer comes into play. And, because every voice is different, it's just not a plug and play device - even the TC Helicon Harmony-M or the Digitech VR - I should know - I own a couple of both and I rely heavily upon my vocals. I can assure you that if you set up the VH2 properly, and utilize voice control, you can make it almost, but not as good as any outboard harmonizer. The difference is so insignificant that no audience would notice.

All the best,

Gary

I sing and play with my arranger but have never once used the vocal harmoniser . Never once in a live performance . I think it's the most over used and overrated function on any arranger . If you can sing and play then just do that . No vocal harmoniser sounds natural and it takes away from a performance far more than it contributes .

Perfect example how NOT to use a VH .....as dave says Please make it stop. Of course the Tyros 5 alone sounds incredibale.

Spalding, not everyone SHOULD use the VH systems. For some, their singing techniques do not lend well to this device, while for others, such as UD, it's a fantastic tool.

As I stated above, it's something that you must learn to use, and the learning curve is not easy and very steep. Some folks just never get the hang of it, but some, such as myself, and many others I know, love what can be achieved within a song that cries out for vocal harmony in some segments. When the Beach Boys sing Little Surfer it's the incredible harmony that brings this song to life. Same is true for many other songs, old and new. How about the Sons Of The Pioneers with Cool Water, a song of which only has a few segments in harmony, but that harmony adds so much to the song.

There's a lot more to singing in harmony, electronic or live, than just adding an extra voice or two to the primary or lead vocals. Learning how to utilize this asset to the fullest extent and making the music flow naturally is what it is all about. Unfortunately, there are those that do not understand this and consequently, give the harmonizer a bad reputation, one that is not deserved.

All the best,

Gary

Most arranger players don't use their Vocal Harmonizers anyway, so it is not overused or overrated. Few that do use it can miss-use it. None of the TOTL arrangers have great VH processors, but can be handy for some songs and registrations.

I've used VoiceLive 2 Extreme, for quality harmonies of my own voice. However, the best unit for dynamics and quality gender bending is Roland in their VP-770 and the small VP-7 unit. I wish Roland continued to develop the VP-7, but decided to discontinue it.

For lack of dynamics, common mistakes are no mic technique, especially poor quality headsets at a fixed distance. Second mistake is using fixed harmony, for just a bland fixed harmonic intervals throughout your songs.

At least the arranger onboard VH can pickup your complex chords and give you the interesting harmonies and chord accuracy. Portable units therefore would give you more interesting harmonies matching your keyboard chords via midi control and minimize using the fixed harmony setting or having to fuss to setup the correct key.

In the case of the VP-7, dynamics interpreted through your playing technique is sent live to the VP-7 at whatever midi channel you choose. Besides your own voice and mic technique, the Vocal Designer/Vocoder dynamics will respond to changes in the microphone input volume and can be adjusted over a range of seven levels.

Just these two user changes can dramatically improve the dynamics in your VH renderings, and this is before even adding Roland's Variation Sounds in Variation mode for more added dynamics to your own voice.

Rather than the Roland VP-7 giving you accurate harmony intervals to your own voice from the chord data sent from your playing, your actual notes played become the chosen harmonies and with Roland's great presets (in this mode) different gender and choir combinations are now added to your original voice.

None of the Roland demos demonstrate this mode, yet it is the best I have heard from any VH processor. Roland, from their older VP-550, has developed this nice organic feel and gender authenticity to the various choir presets. Roland killed these settings by optimizing their fixed presets settings. Depends on your own voice, but professional players like, Don Lewis makes his voice sound like an authentic southern gospel choir. All your playing technique and fingered notes, even midi bass notes(feet)information are translated to the choir or chorus parts.

VP-7 Variation Mode preset descriptions
1) Male & Female (Female Choir button) - A mixed choir with independent male and female parts. Sparse harmony will produce a three- dimensional sound that is thicker than "Classic". Female voices sing the high range, and the male voices sing the low range. Female voices at the right on the stereo field, and the male voices are heard on the left.

2) Kids Choir 2 (Kids Choir button) - Unlike the mixed choir, the female parts is sung by young boys whose voices have not yet changed. Compared to the mixed choir, this produces a more transparent sound. The high range is sung by young boys, and the low range by youths.

3) Classic (Gregorian Choir button) - This is a large chorus suitable for classic music. The sound is clear, making it suitable when you want the lyrics to be heard.

4) Jazz Scat 2 (Jazz Scat button) - This is the jazz scat sound. Since this is an expressive and crisp sound, it's suitable for songs with rapid passages, or for scat singing. By playing the keyboard strongly while you sing, you can switch to a "fall" note.

5) Background (Duet button) - This is the sound of a simple backing chorus. It produces a clear-sounding chorus of a small number of people, maintaining a sense of presence even in the background.

6) Pop (Trio 1 button) - This is a small chorus that is broadly useful with popular music or with songs containing rapid passages. The sound is clear, making it suitable for songs in which you want the lyrics to be heard.

7) Gospel (Trio 2 button) - This is a chorus with the distinctive performances techniques and irregularities that are characteristic of gospel music. It is suitable for jazz or gospel.

I have used the Shure SM58 or a Samson dynamic mic for playing out for convenience , plus the VP-7 has phantom, but for home studio I use a nice quality tube mic to add warmth and adds subtle sympathetic harmonics at higher vocal levels to enhance the organic characteristics of the VP-7 variation sound, for even more authentic dynamic changes.

The Roland VP-7 Ambiance (reverb) is pretty good and the stereo output matches perfectly with my Tyros 5 AUX-IN or to the T5's Hard Disk Recorder along with the Tyros 5 sounds. For even more variation and dynamics, one or both of the VP-7's audio output can be fed back into the Tyros 5 mic input to take advantage of the high end DPS effects or simple harmony splits using VH2, like doubling the VP-7 output, or doubling the choir sound....or add the ultra realistic "Real Reverb" DPS for more authentic dynamics.

Your VH doesn't have to be bland or lack dynamics. The Yamaha VH2 is no worse than the other TOTL arrangers. Add the dynamics of a TOTL arranger like the Tyros 5 and add your favorite VH unit, you won't be bored or lack dynamics.

Regards, Marcus

I found one of Don Lewis's older videos. The single VP-7 unit is vastly improved over the old VP-550 keyboard and weights less than 2 lbs.

Marcus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TdQwOUGaFs

LOVE IT! Notice the incredible vocal control he utilizes.

Gary

Who wants to carry around another kb in a OMB act just for VH? might be ok for studio work playing in Vocoder mode..

That Lewis video is few years old. There has since been the VP-770 keyboard and lastly the VP-7 module with improvements to the VH engine. I believe Roland developed the original variphrase technology, and their expertise transferred over nicely to their VP products. Far ahead of Yamaha, Korg (T C Helicon), Digitech in regards to the gender and pitch stretching technologies. Virtually no warble or digital artifacts in the processing on the latest VP -7 unit. The VP-7 choir and Jazz Scat voices are not that shabby either, and can play over, layered on top of any of the Tyros 5 sounds.

The point is, you can get even better results with the little 2 lb VP-7 unit in variation mode, that was carried over from the previous VP-keyboards.

Setting the Tyros 5 to AI Full Keyboard fingering for your chords, you can still run full (vocoder) variation mode and still control your style play, multipads, ensemble, plus switch on-the-fly during a song to Human Voice/Vocal designer mode on the VP-7 or that robotic vocoder mode.

Not only for studio, but for live performances. I have a little aluminum bracket that fits into the Tyros 5 speaker mounting holes that screws onto the mounting holes on the less than 1 KG VP-7 unit. What is more portable than that, plus in direct visual range from your playing position and easy to manage the controls.

For a gig, one Tyros 5, one VP-7, good mic and stand, and proper powered speaker configuration for the venue size. No second keyboard or laptops.

Marcus

I couldn't agree with Gary more. You have to sing with a pure voice, as little vibrato as possible and directly into the mic without overloading it. It requires practice, but I get great results even on the S 950. After awhile it becomes automatic. Just keep working at it.

Joe

Just did this on the S-950 using an onboard style, Sennheiser E-855, one shot deal, onboard USB recorder, and the onboard Standard Male Quartet harmony. For you youngsters, the song was originally done by Gene Autry and the Sons Of The Pioneers.

Cool Water

Gary

Well, it was written by Bob Nolan, and Vaughn Monroe with the Sons of the Pioneers had the biggest hit with it.
Never heard Gene do it, but he may have. Love Gene Autry's voice. I think Roy Rogers may have done it too.
As far as the VH, I still think it's a little muddy in the lower parts in some places. But the mud may well be in my ears.

It's funny that the vocal harmoniser as has been demonstrated here sounds robotic and the advice given to use it properly involves singing without using modulation in your voice . Just like a robot !

I am not convinced of the usefulness of a harmoniser but I have been spoiled by singing with great real singers . I don't think I can be convinced on this .

I can see the usefulness of the effects on the voice like the reverb and delay. however the auto harmony sounds sterile and false to my ears . But I don't need to be persuaded on this. If This is what you enjoy and it sounds good to you, then it sounds good to you and that's all that really matters. 😀

For solo gigs, I rely on the Tyros harmonizer quite a bit. It does take practice and I've modified four harmonies that I keep in user files, that I use.

The harmonizer doesn't take the place of real harmonies, that's why when my wife and I sing together, we don't use it.

But for my solo gigs, the harmonizer adds a bit and makes the song more interesting for the audience. At least that's the feedback I get.

My wife can't use the harmonizer as she belts out songs and over drives the harmonizer. But we don't like to use the harmonizer anyway when we do our duet.

Regardless of what unit I use, onboard or not, I have one setting that I try to optimize, a third above. I sometimes change genre to female. I try to use it sparingly.
I also sometimes use a setting that makes me sound like a girl. I use it for gag stuff and when I do Bread and Butter with my friend Dean Mathis of The Newbeats.

DonM ... is that a real song he is singing at the end of the video?

Well if it is I've never heard it and can't find it via google. Maybe it's an original of his? I like it.

Yeah ... I searched for it also, then figured if anyone would know it YOU DA MAN !!! ... but, alas ...

Yes, the T C Helicon demo from the Korg has that typical sterile digital processing characteristics. Tom, from T C Helicon isn't doing the product any favors by by running a 50%-50% balance between his original voice and the VH voices. The processed voice is never going to sound as good or natural as the original. I agree, use VH sparingly with good vocal mic technique, and keep the processed sound a percentage lower than your voice. The idea is to give the illusion of multiple singers, chorus or choirs, not have virtual voices overwhelm your own.

T. C. Helicon has probably the best processors and DPS effects. Really good for solo guitarists and keyboard players looking for that certain effect, however from a keyboard player and vocalist perspective I find the characteristics of the Roland VP-7 to have a less digitized processed sound and a more organic feel to the sound.(see my description earlier in this thread)

I decided to try an updated recording with my Tyros 5 and the Roland VP-7 of an earlier recording version demonstrating the VP-7 Variation Mode presets. I got a few favorable responses back then, but I think the overall vocal sound improved a little bit using the warmth of a tube mic. I'm using a modded Apex 460 tube mic from my home studio setup. Recorded a one-off live recording with no mic processing except for the VP-7 output. A noise-gate and some compression could have helped with some background noises, but I am used to performing live and go directly into the song. You can hear me pressing the Tyros 5 buttons in certain times, but just a quick demo recording using the T5 hard disk recorder with the VP-7 input into the AUX-IN.

I don't record anything anymore, just perform. As a past tenor, I don't bother warming-up my voice anymore and it probably shows. Perhaps good to have an imperfect voice for this, to demonstrate how the VP-7 harmony voices track your exact notes played on the keyboard and keeps the notes in tune.

I forgot what style I used last time for this song (By Name), but one of Henni's modified styles ( EternityMega 2) is used. Close enough for a demo song. Please see my MP3 demo, and if any Tyros 5 owner want the style (ByNameEterM2.S712), download that as well. Optimized for the Tyros 5, with the same OTS voices I used.

Regards, Marcus

By Name-T5-VP7 MP3 (Christian Contemporary)
1st Refrain - Male & Female (Female Choir button) - A mixed choir with independent male and female parts. Sparse harmony will produce a three- dimensional sound that is thicker than "Classic". Female voices sing the high range, and the male voices sing the low range. Female voices at the right on the stereo field, and the male voices are heard on the left.
2nd Refrain - Background (Duet button) - This is the sound of a simple backing chorus. It produces a clear-sounding chorus of a small number of people, maintaining a sense of presence even in the background.
Last Refrain - Gospel (Trio 2 button) - This is a chorus with the distinctive performances techniques and irregularities that are characteristic of gospel music. It is suitable for jazz or gospel.(Similar to the Don Lewis VP-550 demo video settings)

https://app.box.com/s/13tmxs7je2npku5wu83kfa3maehm84a5

ByNameEterM2.S712 (Tyros 5 style) not from a Tyros 5 preset style

https://app.box.com/s/lsv85txk6tnz45phhm32vhvqv4xy280k

Great job, Marcus - sounds very natural to me, very warm harmony. What's not to like? I love it!

Thanks for sharing this,

Gary

Marcus,

I agree with everything Gary said. It's a shame that Roland discontinued that harmonizer. It sounds very good.

God Bless,
Don

Wow Marcus,

I have only one word: Precise!!! Perfect!!!

You are a true & a gifted musician my friend. Thank you for sharing.

Henni

Hi Marcus . I would like to say just s few things about your demo . There was beauty and pathos in the way you delivered and arranged the song . It was powerful simple and effective all by itself .

You have a clear voice and for this kind of song which is quite solemn and spacious , there really was no need for the harmoniser although it was better than most I have heard .

However I could hear very minor harmonic glitches as the harmony caught the chords you were using and corrected itself or as your voice trailed off and the harmony followed the fall off . It's was milliseconds but I found myself unfortunately listening for them and where they would occur next instead of listening to your song and that detracted from the song . The same thing happens when some arranger players change chords just ever so slightly too late .

Now that's not to say the delivery wasn't good . It was very good . But those glitches are the reason why I don't like harmonisers because as you slur up or down to a note as all singers do , the harmoniser follows . You used it sparingly which is exactly how in my opinion if it must be used at al , it should be used .

However If your voice is poor the harmoniser covers up major deficiencies but if your voice is good as clearly yours is ,it highlights any minor quirks just because of the way it responds just behind you .

I hope I have been constructive in my feedback .
By the way please post more of you work . It really did set a standard that I would encourage .

By all means, awesome feedback. Harmony notes trailing off were mostly playing errors in my part. The harmonizer unit was not tracking chords trying to adjust. It was in Variation mode, where the harmonies are produced following the exact notes across the keyboard I was holding down. You would need to time your playing with your singing or my chording notes distracted from the chorus parts I was trying to convey through the harmonizer.
Instead of using a guitar voice in a couple of the verses, I perhaps could of used a string voice or an instrument that would play more legato rather than releasing notes too soon. Better voice selection and timing in my part with the notes and my singing would minimize this issue.
If I was in chordal mode, where chords are tracked and interpreted , I would set the recognized midi channel for only my left hand playing where I would be playing the chords to trigger the auto style.
Actually the Variation mode leans more towards sustained or accapella type music playing, like perhaps a hymn or SATB four part pieces using an organ or string voice over the produced voice harmonies.
Great observations, as that is exactly what I like do and how I make up my own mind. Lots of people nowadays use no critical thinking at all, and just follow the crowd or fad of the week.
Thanks and appreciated,
Marcus

Marcus, I (and one other Synthzoner) have th VP770 which I have been raving about for years. It sits atop my organ (KeyB Duo Mark II) and used for extra voices, a harmonizer, and a controller for my BK7m which I use for drums (studio and rehearsal). Alhough it CAN sound great, one must be very meticulous in setting it up and use all the vocal techniques mentioned above by some of our residet pro's or it can sound just as 'fake' (metallic, to me) as all the rest. Personally, I only like it when it's triggered by the chords played.

chas