http://www.oracleband.net/Articles/article-band-vs-dj-hiring-a-live-band.htm

https://www.theknot.com/content/wedding-reception-music-bands-vs-djs

I think this subject has been hashed over many, many times.

Gary

A deejay is more flexible and cheaper then a band....

But an OMB playing all music including modern dance music can still outperform a deejay and keep youngband old enthralled at a wedding

I don't see Dj's losing any sleep about losing their gigs to OMB KB players ever.
Just find your piece of the pie and go for it.

Donny, nothing has really changed in this area for the past 20 years. Two decades ago, the DJs made an inroad in the wedding reception venues, mainly because they played the music the kids getting married wanted to hear. Of course, that dozen youngsters in the wedding party really didn't know how to dance, but they could shake some body parts and wave their hands over their heads. The 150 guests, most of which were over 50 years of age, could have cared less about shaking body parts or waving their arms over their heads while the DJ played music at ear bleed volumes and rattled the water glasses on the tables.

I think the same 12 young girls must travel throughout the United States to attend wedding receptions, wearing the same gowns, immediately taking off their shoes and screaming at the top of their lungs on the dance floors they tend to dominate, especially later in the reception. By this time, more than half the guests have given up, left the reception after consuming a lousy dinner consisting of chicken cordon-blue, mashed potatoes the consistency of wall paper paste, under-cooked green beans, and washing it down with warm champagne.

In contrast, the high end events, ones attended by the older crowds, still employ bands ranging from 5 to 12 pieces. The bands, as explained in the articles you linked to, play the music that folks can dance (real dancing) to, music that is at a sensible volume, and songs they can relate to, which makes perfectly good sense. These bands, and there are still many around, have all the work they want at the upscale locations, places where DJs don't have a prayer of working. The bands get top dollar for these events as well.

So, in reality, nothing has really changed in two decades. I see DJs and KJs that I know all the time. They're often in the audiences where I performed, not working on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday evening. If they're really good, they might get one or two jobs a week, at least in this part of the world. Maybe they get more work in Tony Mads town, or NYC, and even LA, but in this part of the world, it's weddings and an occasional animal club job for DJs - that's it!

Now, you may feel that DJing is the wave of the future, and you may be right, but I don't think so. They don't get the jobs in the high end restaurants, they don't do jobs in the even more lucrative senior circuit, I've never seen one at a political fund raiser, and I've done loads of them, I never see them at cocktail parties, living room parties, etc... So, where in the Hell are they? DJing, from what I see, is a very, very, tiny market. I think the KJs do a lot better, at least around here and in Florida.

All the best,

Gary

Around here, loud DJ's work LOUD events.


Musicians and bands work CLASS events.


Russ

All I know honestly everywhere you look DJ's is the norm in today's world,...I saw this coming many years ago after performing all over the world with a 7 piece show band, I said to myself how can I sound like a full band BY MYSELF? to counteract the undercutting of band prices by Dj's & I did figure it out after 20 successful years on my own mixing it up with Playing Arranger Kb, Singing with custom backing tracks,, & Dj'ing all wrapped up in one,.... it's your best bet to fend off the onslaught of a DJ minded world. Times have changed drastically thru the years for musicians,....but if your very creative, have the drive and passion,.....and possess the "goods"......you will survive in the music business, I'm living proof of that..

carry on..

My wife and I go to the local casino to listen to some of the most talented musicians, and singers from the local US and Canadian Niagara region. Lately we have noticed more DJ's filling the bands schedule. Instead of the bands they are also relying on televised sports on their large screen over the band area, that was used to show the bands performing. They have even sent bands home early to show big sporting events. I e-mailed one really enjoyable band to find out when they will be back. They replied the Casino does not want to pay the price. That is hard to believe with all the money the casino is taking in.

My 2 cents.

Jerryghr

Jerry, it's called greed. Ironically, they don't seem to realize that the folks that spend most of the money at their establishments are older folks - not the younger set. And, by bringing in a DJ, they've essentially alienated their prime customer base, the folks who enjoyed listening to live bands, a diversity of music and at reasonable volume levels.

I was watching Bar Rescue on the idiot tube this morning, and they talked about how much money was generated by each, occupied bar stool and table, and how much was generated by keep those individuals seated longer than just the time to eat dinner. It was amazing. If that dinner table is enjoying the entertainment, they spend nearly twice as much just be staying an extra 30 minutes. If the seat is empty, the establishment loses a bundle for every 30 minutes it is not occupied.

I always love it when people, including some on this forum, claim they need to attract the younger crowds. WHY? Younger folks are living paycheck to paycheck, don't have a pot to pee in or a window to throw it out of, get drunk, raise hell, don't spend much on food, drink the cheapest booze they can find to get high and cause most of the problems. Yep, that's the crowd a thriving business wants to attract - NOT!

If I were in the restaurant/bar/casino biz I would try to attract older folks, individuals and couples that no longer are burdened with a mortgage, babies to feed, child support, etc... They have far more expendable income for leisure activities. Take a look at the cruise ships - you would be hard pressed to find passengers under age 50, and for the most part they are over 65 years of age. How about Vegas, Reno, Cancun, Marathon, and most other high end resorts? The only younger generation you see there are those working behind the bars and staffers.

When my wife and I went to Cancun and stayed at the Palace Las Americas, an incredible resort, every night they had a show, which ALWAYS included live music. Every day and evening they had a piano player, a guy that could barely speak English, but damned,that guy was one Hell of a player. And, he crooned out some Sinatra songs phonetically that were just fantastic. His tip jar, the same as mine, was a beer pitcher and it will always overflowing with 10s and 20s. About the third night I was there my sister told him, through an interpreter, that I was a performer and singer. He asked me to sing a few songs that night, which I did. He loved it, the piano bar audiences loved it, and the hotel manager asked if I could stay another week, which I could not. I had a ball, the crowd consisted mainly of folks in their late 50s and early 60s, and the piano player's tip jar had to be emptied twice a night after that.

So, I suspect that the casino where you went, Jerry, will either lose lots of business, or maybe they'll get smarter and bring the bands back so they can reclaim the business they lost. Some folks just ain't too bright, though.

All the best,

Gary

NOT TO HIJACK THE THREAD, BUT:
I am not supporting the casinos, but the fact is that most casinos are facing real financial difficulties ... look at the number of casinos that have filed bankruptcy - including 4 Trump casinos even though he has stated that he never filed bankruptcy ... even in NJ and Las Vegas they are closing doors almost daily ... Here in RI the state's 'take' of casino revenue has declined considerably and while it was first thought that it was due to a new casino in nearby MA, that casino's $$$ projections have not been met ... one of the two major casinos in CT has filed bankruptcy and is now looking to join a partnership with the other ...
What I do not understand, however, is how some of these places even in financial difficulty look to expand ... I guess it creates a tax write off of some kind ...

I guess music wasn't a priority.

Over the last few years, Seneca Gaming has opened an additional $130 million Seneca Buffalo Creek Casino in downtown Buffalo,(which has no live music), as well as a new $48 million hotel tower at its Seneca Allegany Resort & Casino in Salamanca. The company also has spent nearly $45 million to overhaul the main gaming floor of its Niagara Falls Casino, renovate its hotel rooms and renovate its Thunder Falls Buffet within the Niagara Falls complex.

Regards,

JerryGHR

Yes

This week, I played for 25 people for $500.00 for two hours during a dinner. That's possible because one person was International president of a major automobile manufacturing company, one was a college president, one was a Lt. Governor....etc.

Sometimes, it's not the volume of bodies but the situation.

The right material is vital.

Following the money ain't a bad tactic. I'm also fishing for high dollar work for my day company, and these are the very guys who can afford my product.

And, guess what? Other than for their kids or grand-kids, not one would ever hire or even listen to a DJ.


Russ

I understand your point of view, Russ. Alas, were DJs losing jobs to arranger players this discussion would be one of a totally different nature. Also, it doesn't take away the fact that quite a few of the "pro-arranger" players resort to Dj-ing as well. Sorry, but to me it's just another case of someone thinking he's better than the other. I can't help but remembering what many arranger players here think of piano players.

In Europe DJs that play at weddings and such have no problem keeping everyone on the dance floor. They play music that caters to all ages: waltzes, polkas, fox-trots, musette, evergreens, standards, disco, rock, etc.

Of course, my view on this doesn't matter like anything else I say on this forum.

Taike

Taike, I'm saying that there is a market for live music, but it's different now than even a few years before.

In my early years, all jobs were proms, High School sock hops and Fraternity parties. They're all gone now, done mostly by DJ's.

My market rarely calls for an arranger. It's a classical guitar for a dinner, or a piano. B-3 jobs are there for the Jimmy Smith hardliners. Jobs up to 12 pieces are regular occurrences. Philharmonic and Jazz arts council gigs pop up as often as I'd like. Recording is every Sunday (2:30 thru Monday-6:00 PM-straight through).

The point is, you can work IF you are versatile and know lots of styles and material. In a typical month, I do all jobs mentioned here on guitar (classical, jazz, R&B)bass (bass guitar and upright), piano, organ, synths, vocals, percussion, vibes, mandolin...anything with strings or keys on it. I even worked on a Bluegrass album for a friend who has a Grammy recently. Have a lot of instruments...will travel is my motto.


DJ's don't hurt me at all. I don't want or need the kind of jobs they do, and there's plenty of the jobs I get to turn 1/2 of them down. Clients tell me they can't find enough entertainers at the high end. I've worked for some of my big corporate/industrial/government clients for over 40 years. I think, sometimes, I'm hired for sentimental reasons, instead of talent. On these jobs, I really don't have much competition.

On other thing: If the band or venue is solid, I never ask or negotiate price. Things seem to work out on that end. If the pay is light, I tell them next time that the scale is below my normal rate and they generally up the bread.

Russ

Taike, I, for one, have always valued your opinion. Keep in mind that things are a bit different in various regions of the globe, and not everything is the same when it comes to entertainers. My comments pertained to DJs in my specific region - not Europe, Asia, Latin America, etc..., and I stated that in my posts.

I have never seen a DJ while I was in Europe, the UK, the Mediterranean area, South Africa, North Africa or Scandinavia, therefore, I have no practical knowledge to relate this. As for piano players, I have nothing but great respect for those that have the skill to play that instrument, which I stated in an above post. I wish I had that skill as well, but alas, I'm just a lowly entertainer that uses an arranger keyboard.

All the best,

Gary

Russ, that's exactly what I meant. Is no one taking a job away from anyone. Why can't others just see that?

Like we say in Laos, "Same, same...but different."

Taike

I'm "outta here", friends. Gotta go play a party for the people who started a national restaurant chain years ago.

Guess who?


Russ

Hooters?

Gary

Russ ... you have been very fortunate to develop a base of 'high roller' clientele - sheikhs and other multi/multi millionaires from the 'horsey set', and mega corporations ... something a lot of us have no exposure to, and good for you, for through your talent you have made the most of it ...
But do you not know other talented musicians you could recommend for the gigs you turn down? ... If nothing else, I find it difficult to believe that local colleges and universities don't have talented musicians who can PLAY ...

And Taike, please, your opinion isn't taken any less than anyone else on this forum ... from time to time we ALL say things that are either disregarded or criticized by others - it all depends on what is being said and who is reading it ...

As for DJs. those in the US are no different than those in Europe or anywhere else with their ability to keep people on the dance floor ...

I come from a time when bands were able to play the 'top forty' in their own style and people loved it - it didn't have to sound just like the record - the band we had was well known and people said they "loved to hear our sound" ... what I find disappointing is the fact that today, if it doesn't sound exactly like the record, it is not acceptable, hence the DJs ... I have heard bands who could play the 'top 40' and sound like the original recording, but these are well educated musicians, with 2 or more male and female vocalists and 8 to 10 musicians ...
they make a living playing music,and they demand a lot more money than a DJ ... but they do not play as many gigs as DJs because of the economics ...

Personally, I am very happy I played music with a band at the time I did ... I am just sorry that many musicians, after countless hours of study and practice, will not get to feel that excitement and joy of seeing a jammed dance floor, dancing to the music they are playing, because a DJ is taking their place ...

Right on Tony.
My experience pretty much mirrors yours. I am very thankful I got to play in a variety of bands for decades. But now,....
In order to pick up NEW clients, I have had to the "DNJ Thing" and incorporate some DJ material. In fact, I have two clients
that have never seen me play a keyboard because they hired me for pool parties and wanted balls to the wall, original RnR
hits and line dancing. Those same clients have also hired me to play in their ballrooms for some upcoming dates. I expect
those jobs will be much more of the typical ballroom type featuring a wide variety of ballroom type music from some big band
standards to Waltz, Polka, Bossa etc as well as RnR and come country favorites. I'll be singing and playing arranger
most of the night and will go to MP3s for the stuff I don't do live. Outdoor Pool Parties vs Indoor Dinner Dances...two very
distinctly different expectations by the audiences.
Eddie

Eddie in other words your "entertaining" your audience...
if your tool box is full you can build any house

just sayin'

Tony you know very well that Casinos filing for bankruptcy does not have to do anything with earnings. Sometimes rats just hack the system. Especially if they have TRUMP logo.

This turned out to be a very timely thread ...
Today I played 1 1/2 hours at the annual family picnic sponsored by our Church ... The past few years I have played for 3 hours, but this year our Pastor told me that 2 young (high school) church members had asked if they could volunteer their time to play music to promote their DJ business ... The Pastor wanted to know if that was ok with me - (I also volunteer my time for this function, as I am hired for other gigs during the year) - I said it was ok and the DJs and I split the time - I played the first 1 1/2 hours and they played the second 1 1/2 hours ...
I played some 50's and 60's, Beatles, Eagles, Sinatra, etc. ... I got quite a few compliments on the music ...
The kids did a nice job, playing a mix of top 40 and 'dance' tunes from the past few years, and while they had about 4 times the speaker power I had (I just used my 2 Podium 10s), they did not blast anyone out of the field ...
At the end of the day, guess who got a booking for a wedding next May ??? ...

OH YEAH!

Gary

Tony, every once in a while, a talented Master's candidate comes through the university who can really burn it. Sadly, faculty members are mostly site readers who couldn't play Misty without a chart.


When the new head of the entire music program got in town, he was introduced by the club owner. He asked if I could add him....I was playing a duo. The guy couldn't play a note without a chart.

This was a "fast and loose" job, with lot's of requests....a B-3 job at a country club.

I had a friend...Jay Flippen at a nearby University who outplays me with his elbow. He passed recently, but we shared jobs and played together for many, many years.

The main reason I work is this is a big "small" town. You're either in or out. Lot's of choices are made on connections and not talent. After all these years, I know most participants and know all their favorite songs.

I used to recommend other players, but caught a lot of crap when things didn't work out. Too many breaks....drinking too much...not the right material.

If I see a talented player now, I give them a list of appropriate venues and contacts and wish them luck.

There's not much competition in this area. In my market, all everyone wants is jazz. That's what I'm known for. In fact, I don't know anyone buy Chas here who would even be interested or be familiar with the material.


Russ

Russ, unfortunately, this is not at all uncommon. I have a good friend that frequented this forum in the past, he played at a couple American Legions and animal clubs, but without the dots he was totally lost. Very talented reader. If someone requested a song, he had to go through 8 huge loseleaf binders to find the sheets, which often took up to 5 minutes to accomplish. He no longer plays at these locations, and for that very reason.

The only time I performed in your backyard was several years ago at the University of Kentucky in Lexington for my sister in law's 50th wedding anniversary. It was a large room, jammed to capacity, probably about 250 people (I didn't count them), and I had the dance floor packed for the three hours it lasted. Several people came up to me and asked where I performed regularly in the area. I guess arranger keyboard players who also sing are a rare breed in that part of the world. I know you're not a big fan of arranger keyboards, and would rather play the B3 or guitar, but you must admit, a talented entertainer that can play a mean arranger keyboard could do very well in your neighborhood.

All the best,

Gary

I remember that, Gary. Thought it was in Louisville at the University of Louisville? Maybe that was another job at another time.

You're right. There is only one other guy who uses an arranger in the nicer places. He mostly does sequences with a female singer.

Russ

Gary ... Someone should have taught your friend 3 things:
1. NO ONE needs "8 huge looseleaf binders" on a gig;

2. He should have set up all his songs by genre - Ballads, swing, country, Latin, etc. ;

3. And within those genres, the songs should have been filed alphabetically.

Then it might have then taken him 30 seconds to find a song - which might be too long if people are waiting on a dance floor, but at least he might have still been working ...

Or memorize the songs and lyrics...just sayin'

Gary ... I don't know where you are referring to when you say 'around here', but I am pretty sure that if you took a weekend tour of popular catering halls and hotel ballrooms where there are weddings and major functions going on, you will see more DJs than bands.
I've said this SO many times before: The problem is that the culture has changed and the vast majority of young people (from teenagers to 40 somethings) want to hear the song played EXACTLY like the original recording. That can only be accomplished by a fairly large band - 8 to 10 pieces or more, including vocalists, OR by hiring a DJ ... it's unfortunate for good musicians, but such is the case ...

DITTO....DITTO ......& BIG DITTO !!

PS.......as I always said, the more they DJ and blast the audiences the more $$$ I make....

Tony and Donny, in the Baltimore metro area, DJs get some of the weddings, but in the larger halls, Martin's West, Martin's Eastwind, which are the two largest complexes, each having several huge halls, where high end weddings take place, most of those weddings are bands, some to 12 or more pieces. The halls have a DJ list, but they also have a band list as well. Now, the less expensive weddings, those with less than 150 guests and lower budgets, DJs tend to dominate those. I have a friend that is among the top DJs in this area, he gets about $1,000 for a 4 hour wedding reception and does one wedding a week.

I know several KJs, most of which were in bands in the past, they work three nights a week doing American Legions, VFWs and animal clubs. They make an average of about $250 a night for three to four hours. They also do some private parties and pick up about $500 for a four hour party.

Now, the farther south you go along the east coast, the lower the pay scale, at least from my experience. And that is for all entertainers, bands, DJs and KJs. Yeah, I know you Yankees know DJs that get $20,000 for doing a wedding, but that just don't happen down heah south of the Mason/Dixon Line.

My wife went to a wedding in California, one that had three bands - NO DJs. It was pretty extravagant, and the band at the reception was 14 pieces with 3 singers - WOW! I wouldn't even want to take a guess at the cost of that wedding and reception. Carol said she thought it was about $50,000. They had a 10 piece group inside the church, a six piece group playing outside after the wedding ended for the folks that were waiting for the bride and groom outside while photos were being taken in the church. Really neat stuff, and I'll try to find some of Carol's photos to post.

Tony, when I played in Baltimore high end hotels, the hotel ballrooms had at least one wedding a weekend, but in nearly every instance, there was a band - NOT A DJ! The cost of renting these ballrooms was insane, and most of the weddings held there were quite extravagant. Many of them were weddings of daughters and sons of folks that were very wealthy politicians. As you well know, politicians do not hire DJs for their musical entertainment - they hire bands, at least that's the case in Maryland, DC and Northern Virginia.

The same tends to be true for the larger private parties put on for audiences ranging 45 to 65 years of age, and the ballrooms are where most of these take place. I've performed for several at Martin's West and Martin's Eastwind, Columbus Gardens, and a half-dozen hotels in Baltimore's Inner Harbor. Most of the time, these jobs came through agents, which back then I had four of them. They booked me about one private party a month, which was all I really had time for. Most of these events required nothing more than background music while the attendees rubbed elbows with corporate giants and politicians. It was boring, but it was easy money and I got lots of repeat business from them. Again, no DJs here either.

I guess things must be a lot different up north in Yankee land.

All the best,

Gary