the music that can be created itself,......this one is better then this one, etc, etc, etc, what can be achieved musically through a players talent using these incredible arranger KB machines is what should concentrated on. Or has these arranger Kb's spoiled many regarding playing talent with all their automation features lessening ones playing abilities in a false sense thinking the latest & greatest model somehow makes you a better player for some unknown reason?
What are your thoughts?

I have limited keyboard chops and know it. However, I can arrange tunes, sing a little, and present a song that helps people reminisce and enjoy the musical moment. My arranger allows me to add to the solo experience by providing the tools to enhance a song far beyond what I could do playing solo piano alone. I think arrangers help develop musical skills, especially within the context of a �band� created by one person. For example, I listen to the rhythm section to see what the bass, drums, and other instruments are doing. That�s really helpful. I can�t dazzle with impromptu solo playing. But, the arranger allows a richer, fuller sound, with multiple voices that most patrons seem to enjoy. I�ve never had a comment that implies fakery, cutting corners, or musically getting by on the cheap. Most comments are along the lines of, �Wow, that thing is amazing, what will the technology folks come up with next?�

I agree that an arranger, used properly, can help enhance one's musical presentation, and help the player improve his or her skills on several levels... however, they sometimes make the player lazy and the skills are actually diminished... Also, I don't want people saying "wow that THING is amazing", I want them saying "wow YOU are amazing".

...but I think that's part of Donny's point; what you said above is all about the arranger, with NO acknowledgment of YOU or your musical input. Sounds like the patrons you quoted above will go home remembering how "amazing" that keyboard was but can't recall who was playing it. Call me conceited, but I want them to remember ME, not what equipment I was using. JMO, though.

chas

Looks like you beat me to it Tony, but at least we were on the same wavelength.

chas

In all the years I've been an entertainer, both with a guitar and arranger keyboard, I've never had a single person come up to me and say "Wow! What an incredible guitar, or Wow! that's an incredible keyboard." It's just never happened - not once. In contrast, many, many individuals, including many pro musicians, have complemented me on the performances.

Now, I can say with absolute certainty that since I began playing an arranger keyboard my sense of timing improved dramatically within a few days. Only wish my bandmates timing would have improved along with mine, but other than my fiddle player, the others never seemed to stay in step with the perfect timing of the arranger keyboard.

The arranger keyboard also provided me with a wide degree of versatility, far more than I had with my 12-string guitar, thus allowing me to greatly expand my song list. It's pretty rare when someone comes up to me and requests a song that I do not know. When it happens, though, I just tell them "I'm sorry, but I don't know that song." Fortunately, that only happens about once a year at most.

The one thing I wish I had the ability to do is play from sheet music, something I never could get the hang of. Yes, I can read it, at least to some minor degree, but the information just never wants to communicate from my tiny brain to my fingers. Totally different with guitar tabs, though. (Never understood why - guess I'm just dumb, or lazy.)

Now, every arranger keyboard I've owned, Yamaha, Roland, Korg, etc..., all sounded great at the time of purchase, and I loved each and every one of them. The only reason I ever sold the first one is because the next one sounded better to me, which has been the case ever since. At this stage of the game, however, being semi-retired, I would be hard pressed to look at a new keyboard. I was at the top of my game when illness forced me to retire, and it was an arranger keyboard that got me there.

Bottom line, thank goodness for arranger keyboards - to me they were the lifeblood of the OMB entertainer industry.

All the best,

Gary

Ditto what J.Larry and Gary said!
Ciao,
Jerry

The magic is when a player uses the instrument in this case an arranger KB combined with awesome chops to create amazing music with an arranger. Having the experience and good fortune to have played with other talented musicians in a band scenario really helps when using an arranger KB successfully in that one would know how all the parts work together to create a unified collaboration of musical parts to form a song. That said it will also teach you how to sit in the "Mix" and know how to comp,sing, & when to solo to produce an arranger KB song in a very effective way. Exercises in memorizing, timing, playing sounds correctly, playing off the cuff & out of the box, are imperative. Of course the layman audience will always be amazed at the technology, but you owe it to yourself to be the best you can be which in turn will give you inner satisfaction as a musician either on stage, studio, or even in your living room.

... imagine that ?!? ...

Speaking for all makes of arrangers, they just keep on getting better & better. Not too long ago, many over here stated that we've reached the pinacle of arranger technology. Yet in spite of this, one new model after the other emerges & every new model sounds better & more realistic.

As long as the world is not at war, the technology will just keep on getting better & better. We have so much to look forward to in this regard.

Then there are those who keep on creating utuilities, styles, sounds, multipads & a host of other things for these already stunning machines.

So off course we keep on sounding better & better. Just the ability to operate these machines at close to their max requires a new skill of musicality, with a lot of technical stuff attached to it.

Does it make the arranger player less of a musician? I doubt this very much. They might be different, but they are just as much musically included as the guy on the sax, piano, trumpet, guitar or whatever...

Some pilots fly hang gliders, others microlights, other Jumbo jets, other sophisticated fighter aircraft. They have one thing in common - they all fly & they are all pilots, regardless of the technicality of it! And each one of them handles his/her flying equipment to the best it can be handled & fly. So it is with arrangers in the lives of musicians too.

As for the amazing part - I would not mind if some say: Wow, that machine is amazing, especially in the way you operate it. After all, we are individuals controlling a full band, are we not. I have no gripe if someone is impressed by my stunning fully automated guitar player. After all, I'm only the conductor of all these incredible musicians following my every instruction to the letter!

Most of our feedback is that we play well with & use high quality midi files and/or backtracks when in fact we are always performing live. To the contrary, it makes me feel good as it means that what they hear cannot be perceived as coming from any level of live playing. Man, I just LOVE my arrangers!

I don't feel the need to defend arrangers. They have kept me from having to get a real job for 30 years.
I used organs and peripherals for arrangers before they were invented.
Last night I had two world-class musicians join me. One is a super-talented guitar player, the other a harmonica player, just moved back here from Nashville. Both have been pros for many years. Both were overjoyed for me to pay them $100. each for four hours work.
We sounded great and it was a privilege to work with them. However, the bottom line is I didn't really need them. It didn't put another dollar in the cash register or the jar.
I'd forgotten how much more work it is to set up for a "band". Bigger mixer, extra cables, extra mics, stands, etc. Had to reposition speakers, announce songs and keys. . .sorta like a bachelor getting married, you have make a few changes!
Both brought their own small amps. I tried to patch them through the main board so I could record, but if I got the signal loud enough in the mix there, they were too loud for the audience, which of course is the primary consideration. So I didn't get good recordings. Too bad, I would love to have recordings of it.
Getting off topic, I guess, so I'll shut up and eat breakfast.

Henni, nothing personal, I assure you, but there is so much about what you just said that I disagree with (in both your music AND aviation analogy), I don't even know where to start. Note that I didn't say you were wrong, just that I disagreed with it. I'll have to elaborate in a future post as my wife is patiently waiting for me to go with her to the store. And BTW, stay out of high-performance jet aircraft. You may THINK you're a pilot but if you haven't been thoroughly trained in one, I guarantee that it'll give "situational awareness" a whole new meaning for you .

chas

Never expected you to agree for a moment chas. "Nothing personal" , but you do not like my way of doing things, neither am I impressed by any of yours (yawn). We are all different. That's what makes life so stunning...

As much as I cannot fly a fighter aircraft, even though I am good at flying other things, just as little chance does a good guitar player for instance have of "flying" an arranger without experience, regardless of how good he is on his instrument. Arranger playing takes the art of making music to a whole new level!

And no, perfect timing is not all there is to it & neither does the results of it (perfect timing) make for music to be to every ones liking... I find many perfectly timed tunes rather boring if there is no WOW in it. Just like you, I also have much to say on this topic alone, so let's not go there. You posted something with fancy timing not too long ago that made absolutely no impression on me & neither will it impress the crowd that we play to. To each his own...

In any case, enjoy your shopping.

I am not a performing player, and might be whats comsidered the typicall home arranger player that wants to improve his skills continously...

Arrangers are perfect for just sit and play, choose your style and play your mellody, relax while playing, choose different styles or voices with the same song, eddit your sounds and settings till it sounds like you want and save as a registration.. For me its fun and relaxing.. I enjoy myself this way atleast an hour a day..

Next to that there is the other part of me, that tries to continously improve his skills, recently started taking piano lessons agains and excersis for atleast an hour each day behind the piano..

And then one night a week i teach my neffews, not as much as a musicteacher, but more about how to use their arranger.. And what can be done with it.. I leave the music teaching to a real keyboard teacher..

There is also the part of my that will soon start rehearsing with a few old friends for a gig with a newly formed cover band... And they needed a keyboard player on top of their piano player...


But when it comes to arrangers and keyboards in general, i am allways looking for new creative tools, not to improve my skills with, not even because i want to sound better, but mostlly because i am looking for new toys to be creative with.. A good example is Karma on the Kronos, its so easy to get lost in tome with that for hours and hours...

My keyboards are my toys, and just like any other kid, i fantasise amd dream about new toys to explore..

At this point, my main considerations are things that make my job easier, because they all sound good.
Things like weight, size, features, ease of operation, display, setup time needed, peripherals...
I still learn new songs occasionally, but spend my free time fishing, playing golf, hanging with grandson, and playing "Chase each other 'round the room tonight" with my wife.
My skills in all these endeavors are more likely to decline than increase at this stage.

Whew! You have no idea how relieved I am. In the past you have posted some of what YOU thought sounded good and timing aside, it probably wouldn't go over very well with my audiences either. But hey, different strokes for different folks, right? BTW, I don't think there's any such thing as "fancy timing". You either have rhythm or you don't. If you do, you don't even think about it, if you don't you probably aren't going to learn it. BTW, I love NATIVE African rhythms. They tend to be very complex and definitely require that all the musicians rhythmically be on the same planet. So I'm guessing this isn't the "crowd you play to".

Anyhow, I'm glad 'righteous' people don't hold grudges. Just keep those 18" subs pumping. If the bass is loud enough, you can't hear the music anyway. Oh, and I'd stay out of those Experimental Class deathtraps, too. They tend to be very unforgiving and account for over half of all aviation accidents. Just friendly advice.

chas

Funny topic as all of you guys do is talk about how amazing arranger keyboards are. Except Chas, of course. Be real, you laud horrible performances but berate (at least some of you) voices/styles just because you own a different brand. Whenever the postings get scarce you blame it on not having a new arranger coming out soon enough. Why doesn't the OP lead the way? What are the OP's needs? We never get to know...

1,2,cha cha cha

Oh, can't handle the truth?

Be honest, your post is just another example of self-promotion. Some people actually do read between the lines, you know.

I've enjoyed over the years when a real musician says ,'Man what was that chord you played just before the 3 chord." what was that progression or turn around you used before the bridge to change from Eb to Gb so on and so forth. Not, Oh! that keyboard has a great piano sound, or man that's the best sax sound I've ever heard on an electronic instrument. Think about it!!!

Why wouldnt you want to discuss both?

Changing to a new keyboard has increases my overall knowledge of keyboards --- besides it�s fun. Does this make ME play better? Not necessarily; but it does give me incentive to play more. It also releases some of my boredom. If not careful arranger keyboards can become boring.

The criteria for judging are important. Is it to please an audience? Is it to supply a need that lies in my personality? (I get bored easily) Is it because I am reading with is in our forum daily? The forum does lean towards NEW. The most important feature for ME now is the weight; it�s the first Spec. that I look at.

My opinion: A keyword can affect your playing indirectly. My Korg keyboard offers so many options that I find I am learning and adjusting more than I am playing. People who change keyboards often never get to find the true value of the keyboard. Because I stayed with Technics for many years I performed netter, recorded many more songs � I played/performed with the Kn7000 with very little thought about the keyboard itself; my attention was on my performance. I loved my Kn7000 because it was so friendly that most of my focus was on me.

Soooo, Donny I feel you hit on great subject: Who am in my relationship with keyboards, or my talent, or my ability to please the people and get more jobs? It�s very possible that I am relying less on my talent and more on the keyboard.

One more opinion: I hate midi files they take away from me. Do I used them? Yes, but not because I like them, I use them because they are needed where a keyboard runs short.

John C.

I get a bit of each. People acknowledge my keyboard skills and are equally amazed at the technology. A lot of upscale retirement community folks have inquiring minds and a few come up to learn about the tool that I'm using. They are fast to point out that it takes command to put it all together.

I am proud to be an arranger player. My organ training was the perfect road for this type of playing. I can spend countless hours on one song and it is pure joy.

I admire any competent musician, whatever they play............

Zuki, I can only say nice, very nice --- good thinking.

John C,

That's a nice and convenient analogy for an arranger player. Playing an upper class arranger, you feel like a Jumbo jet pilot who has trained thousands of hours unlike the pilot of a sailplane. I hope you are aware of the limits of your "analogy" (just one example: the Jumbo jet pilot has to know details about how a wing is constructed or the individual components of an engine, whereas the arranger player usually does not have an insight in the inner sound architecture of a voice, as the user interface, display and manual don't even explain this to the user).

Arranger: We "arrange"... We are given a full band. Our part is to "arrange" them as best we could. We do that mostly with buttons, chords etc. If we want to impress others with i.e. our piano playing skills, we should play the piano instead. Same with the guitar and other solo instruments. A guitar, sax, flute, trumpet was not meant in the 1st instance to be played on keys. Nothing wrong with doing so, but to make a fuss about it...

Some add solo parts to their "arrangers", others vocal parts, others both. It really does not matter. I am no more than a conductor & very proud of it. My arranger does almost all the work for me. All I have to do is get the best out of it.

Wonder why Yamaha started to introduce the DJ loops & all associated fancy controls on their latest "arrangers"? So, there must be a need & market for it on an "arranger". Wonder if those using it also have to spend "thousand of hours" to learn how it functions & what it is made up of. Doubt if anything about it is included in GREAT detail in the manual.

Really, I think it's more about personal ego than anything else...

Depends on the users intellect.

Smart people - a couple of hours.

Dumb people - a couple of hundred hours.

Really stupid people - "thousand of hours"

Your (nautical) mileage may vary .

chas

Arrangers are meant to play any music style... So the fact that they did not have the tools to play the latest dance music warrants this change.. Personally i cant wayt till they add this feature to the next generation of Tyros..