Well, I guess the juices are flowing now. Big deal on who’s the real musician, or not. Who’s got what to prove to whom? I play arrangers all the time, along with guitar, and the gigs keep coming. Must be doing something right. I’d like to see the highly-trained single instrument player entertain the group I did today, with only their solo instrument, going from 1920’s through 1970’s tunes quickly----from Dixieland, to country, jazz, big band, and early rock tunes. Arrangers (with vocals) can really make a party. Isn’t all this about having fun and making people feel good, as a result of the music? I can’t recall ever hearing a negative comment about my use of an arranger, or backing tracks, as cutting corners musically. Most, who say anything at all, are amazed at the current technology.

I can play trumpet, guitar, drums and organ but my instrument of choice is arranger, mostly because I get to keep all the money and don't have to worry about bands breaking up, players not showing or quitting, or getting drunk or high.
I don't have to work anymore, but still enjoy it and it keeps me going.
Gary will be first to tell you he isn't a great player, but he is a great entertainer and has made enough money doing what he does to retire comfortably in his large, paid-for home, take extended trips on his boat and pretty much do what he wants. Damn few solo instrumentalists can say that.
I knew where this thread was going the moment Chas started it, and I'm certain he did too!
It HAS been pretty dull around here lately, since not many of us are interested in synths and fancy software. That's why we're on the ARRANGER forum, because we love and appreciate them! I suppose the rest of you are here because there isn't much action on the dedicated instrument forums??
BTW I LOVE my new arranger! There were two singer/guitar players in to watch me tonight, after my job. They might get it too, but not until after I die or totally retire!

An arranger is designed specifically for the home hobby player (They are a more sophisticated version of the old organ easy play features) so that they can sound like a big band, country section etc. with minimal training, however some pro musicians have realised that they can use them for entertaining live and make a good living, which is fine, however they are a drop in the ocean compared to the home hobby player.

If you start out on an arranger, then you will probably (Though not always) not create your own backing (Played or programed) or be that creative with new sounds or ideas and will just play to emulate, whereas if you learn a specific instrument you will most likely become proficient with all its nuances, which will allow you to apply this knowledge to arranger playing, thus lifting you above the average arranger player.

The above is why 99% of arranger players sound exactly the same as each other, as it is the technology that is producing the sound not the player. (The players are effectively a jack of all trades, but master of none)

In the old days you could tell who was playing no matter what keyboard they played due to the fact they had developed their own style, whereas in general with arrangers you just hear the manufacture. (The more sophisticated the styles and auto sound features (To make those with limited musical skills sound great) the more anonymous they become)

One thing I have noticed in the UK & Europe over recent years is that users (Even home hobby players) are starting to shun a lot of these auto features and instead add additional manuals and pedals to their existing arrangers so that they can play more themselves. (For example talk to Yamaha dealers and (Off the record) they will tell you that the T5 has pretty dismal sales in comparison the previous models with most preferring to stick with the their T3 or 4)

Technology is good when it is the servant; however we have come to a point in TOTL arrangers where the technology has become the master (The T5 is a good example), but fortunately (Unlike in the late 80s early 90s) most users have realised this and have now started to shun it.

The main thing to consider is this: do you enjoy playing your instrument, and does it suit your style, if so, then that’s all that is required. (You can usually tell those that are happy with their instrument as they seldom change it, whereas those that aren’t change it every time a new model comes out)

Bill

Ignorant people have been thinking like this for years about the arrangers of today; some even still call them organs huh. It's not the instrument that makes the musician, it's how he/she uses it. The time they put into it and the passion from their hearts to allow the music to come out to be enjoyed by any who want to hear it.
Arranger players can be just as talented as any concert musicians in technical ability and agility. It is on arrogant people tend to "overlook" the skill and talent of the player.

The new professional arrangers have sampled sounds from the real instruments as well as natural accents added to enhance the sounds and effects or the nuances of the acoustic sounds. These "extras" make it possible not to sound like other players. Being able to play over MP3 files etc have changed the keyboard player repertoire from the old fuddy duddy style to something real and individual.

Start listening to some real players they are every where, look in night clubs, hotels, pubs, clubs etc, as the arrangers are being used in modern music to back up the singers. Who will pay for a 5 piece band any more, but you have them in an arranger player - he/she is worth 5 players pay any day!!!

Allan

Well said

"thou doth protest too much". Whenever someone is OVERLY defensive about something, ....well, you know the rest. This thread was never about who was or wasn't a good entertainer, but about two observations/opinions of mine that -

1) most arranger performances (in style mode) sound 'robotic' to me with a 'factory new-car-smell' to them. Going from a Brazilian Samba to a Country tune to a Big Band number all in the space of 10 minutes sounds completely unnatural to me in any public music venue other than probably a Nursing Home. If you think differently, fine - that's just MY opinion.

2) that playing arrangers exclusively COULD have the effect of curbing your desire to improve your playing skills. Why bother when you can just wait for next wave of technology to do it for you. Again, just my opinion.

Because someone is able to make a living in a very limited segment of the music business doesn't automatically mean that they're good at it. Self-proclaiming how good you are (something few true pro-level musicians do) may be true in YOUR mind but may not be rooted in fact. Many so-called musicians and entertainers have an exaggerated sense of their talent and abilities; most true pro's are rather modest (ie. I've never heard Rory Hoffman tell us how good he is).

So, bottom line, even though I own four arrangers and have been tinkering with them for 30 years, if I express the opinion that, despite the great advances in sound and automation technology, they STILL sound 'sort of robotic' to ME, and that I, personally, don't consider them a legitimate TRADITIONAL musical instrument, then I should not post or express an opinion on this forum. Really?

I know that there are some members here who are well liked by some, but that doesn't mean every word out of their mouth is gospel. I happen to totally agree with Mirza's post but because it doesn't represent our version of reality, he's essentially told to 'sit down and shut up'. Oh well, can't teach a old dog new tricks.....or even get them to listen to a new idea. Whaddya gonna do.

chas

Allen, I'm beginning to like you more, John C.

I consider myself a typical homeplayer..
I never play for others only for my fammily..
with the sole reason that i am never happy with my performace..
which is me, allways looking to improve things..
When i look at hardware.. I see possibilities to improve things
When i hear myself playing, I try to improve myself..
I think it comes from my work as an engineer

I love playing music, playing piano, organ, or emulating any other instrument on my keyboards.
I tried for sometime stepping away from arrangers, but they are just to much fun, when you just want to sit and play
But every day, before playing the arranger, or doing any other music related things on my keys.
Every day i start with honing my piano skills for an hour, playing my lessons and teaching myself.

In the end i make music because it makes me feel good and relax (most of the time)
Just for me myself and i..
Adding 88 weighted keys to my setup was the best thing i have ever done..
As it adds a challenge not found when playing typical lefhand/chord arranger..
Just playing with a softdrumbeat or even witouth it is fun..


If i was a performing player, i would have learned myself accordeon..
The smaller midi accordeons are perfect for on stage, danging around the guitarists and bassplayers..
Or just playing on the beach with a guitarist friend along the campfire..
Many typically dutch shanti and saylor songs come with an accordeon..

Chas my friend, if you are talking about me, nowhere did I say you shouldn't post your opinion, as if it would make any difference if I did. For some unknown reason I found myself defending arrangers again. And that's o.k. too, I think.
I find myself fighting the same problem every night--how to sound like a small combo that is somewhat believable and at the same time try to NOT sound too much the same on every song. Anybody can take a midi file or MP3 or even a dedicated style and play along with it a little, and sound pretty much like the original recording. The challenge is taking an arranger and doing your own interpretation, while staying somewhat true to the original recording. Best way I've found is to keep the style fairly simple and try to skillfully emulate lead instruments for fills and solos. The primary reasons for upgrading to current gear is the ease in operation for doing this and improvements in sounds.
There will always be two schools of thought represented here. There are those of us who embrace the idea and capabilities of arrangers, and those of us who truly believe they are toys for amateurs to enjoy. Neither is really wrong; it depends on what you do with the arranger. I'd rather listen to an expert arranger artist than a bad band. In reality there are few expert arranger artists and lots of really bad bands. The really good bands are finding it hard to find venues for which they are paid according to their talents. Some few make the big time; most are weekend warriors and/or jam-session players who are playing because they love to play. No right or wrong here, and it is pretty sad that lots of great musicians are mostly unrecognized and unrewarded. I'm rambling again, but I'm really old and that happens to us sometimes.

Don, based on your last post, I wouldn't say you were old, I would say you were wise. I agree with 99% of everything you said (the 1% being that I was talking about you ). I not only respect you as a very good musician but also as a consummate 'pro' who is also capable of writing an intelligent, insightful, post without immediately going into 'attack mode'. There is a strong tendency here to immediately go to Def-Con 1 whenever anything is posted that is deemed to be even slightly negative to anything 'Arranger'. Usually, the meaning and intent of the post is largely ignored and it's immediately taken in a different direction, usually one that will provide plenty of 'red meat' for the true believers. It is always accompanied by it's own facts and it's own reality. But hey, that's what fandom is all about, right? Abacus keeps pointing out that Arrangers are designed for and marketed to, home players (even if a handful of full-time pro's use them in certain specialized venues), but the 'faithful few' can't even acknowledge that. Look, if I belonged to a forum on RC model planes and said that I didn't think that flying them completely emulated the experience of flying a real plane, that doesn't mean that I hate RC model planes. It also doesn't mean that real pilots can't or shouldn't fly them. Ok, now I'm starting to ramble, but then I'm old too.

Hey Don, no harm, no foul.

chas