is there so much resentment?... after all it's all about creating music and an arranger kb allows that in many many ways either with styles or creating custom songs your own way from scratch if you have the talent to do so. Or add more to an existing SMF with multiple custom played tracks the way you want it to sound eliminating the repetitiousness of styles which is always fun. I like styles as an instant go to also when performing live with my unique edits making it something special for my needs.
Personally I like to mix it up in many ways using both which gives me flexibility on stage and in my musical arrangements and beyond.
How about you?

Why are posting this now. He died over a year ago.

And why are you replying to the wrong thread.
I don't think Joe Cocker used many styles OR midi file!

O.K. I see what happened. DNJ realized his post was out of date, and deleted it while you were replying! So it showed up on this post.
Regarding styles vs midi files, there is certainly room for both. I prefer styles.

To reproduce the song "Joe Cocker, R. I. P.", it probably comes closer to take a midi file than a style, but I frown on using midi files unless they are self-made and the player doesn't do "lazy playing", but thins it out to do as much as possible live with both hands. (This was my attempt to combine two threads with different topics )

If it works for you, and your audience... then i guess it makes that okay...

Keep in mind that there is more then Midi files, and styles on Keyboards, i would put audio files and MP3s on the same list..
Or the Arp's on Motif, Karma on the Kronos, there is more ways to have accompaniments..

Exactly what I'm getting at Bachus mix it up use all that is available to create music is what its all about...
there's so much more to it then just arrangers

Notice the thread title on individual replies still shows Joe Cocker title.

I used to use a few high quality midi files played on my Korg PA80. I would plug in my guitar, having removed the rhythm guitar track on the file, and play and sing along with the file. When I got my Yamaha I stopped doing that as I could get pretty close with some of the great styles. Style play gives me a fair bit of freedom, as I'm running the show not the midi file. I don't like being restricted to the midi arrangement. Having said that I have a killer midi file for John Lennon's, "COME TOGETHER" that I should check out on my PSR S750. Don't think you'd find a style to drive that song.

God Bless,
Don

also how many people are "recording different new Style parts" to add to styles vs the factory parts etc.. so it becomes yours? This way you get the best of both style and creativeness in you music also. The arranger has that ability but how many use it?

Thats a Bug... related to the software behind the forums

I think both are acceptable as long as it is not out and out faking,i.e. pretending to play over a full midi file. I see red when I run across this. We have spent years learning our trade and some faker pulls this. You may say the audience these days don't care,but I do.

or it's possible the player actually Created the SMF himself? ....
which is a talent in itself,....same with lip-syncing over a song which is done worldwide on the biggest venue stages all the time in shows....
as long as it sounds good and the audiences enjoy it...

No comment except I think you are giving many of these people too much credit.

lets face it everyone entertains in his/her own way....
the applause tells it all every time..

I don't want to speak for Bernie but I THINK he's trying to say that there is still such a thing as INTEGRITY, or is that something we're willing to sacrifice in the interest of ...applause. Something everyone has to decide for themselves, I guess.

chas

Applause can by very, very stupid, e.g. on Youtube, it often has nothing to do with how good someone is as a musician, and sometimes with how clever he/she fools the audience.
Take Milli Vanilli, great entertainers until that playback glitch in 1990...

Yes Chas they listen,...make judgment and applaud or not ..it's simple..
how it's done they couldn't care less most times..just close your eyes and enjoy.

That's the demise of honest live music.

Well then why not just show up with a mp3 player (you can plug into the house system). That way you can get rid of your rock&roller cart too. Only problem is, you may have a lot more people competing for your job.

chas

Yes that's a popular lucrative way to make a living today it's called a "DJ"......and you still need the R&R with those big speakers and subs, and oh do the people dance & love it, ....
just sayin'

To take applause for the music that I didn't even play is against music itself. I would at least say I was not playing that song.

How far are we away from music as an art and as something precious if the attitude is "no matter how it's done, main thing is the audience has fun"...
This reminds me of a parallel with respect to wine as a precious drink connected to a long tradition:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_diethylene_glycol_wine_scandal
(No matter how it's done, main thing the customer thinks it tastes well?)

Midi file, wav or mp3 playback is too close to Karaoke for me.

God Bless,
Don

Wow. I was under the impression that this was an Arranger forum, and that most folks used the Arranger to it’s fullest potential. Sounds like some of the virtuosi here have a modicum of disdain for working stiffs who use all the features of the Arranger. Just sayin'

That is because no-one ever bothered to edit it when they replied like I just did.

So i never knew, nor bothered.

I thought that was the idea too, a la "one man band" - all singing , all dancing, doing all you can to have fun and make the customer smile! Have integrity, yes, but have fun too. To me the Arranger keyboard is a Swiss Army Knife (S.A.K) not a Broadsword, both can open up a can of beans, but the S.A.K. does 10 different ways, while the broadsword only one.

Allan

Well, "one man band" originally means playing various instruments at the same time. P L A Y I N G.
And what does MP3 have to do with an arranger? The audio-in connection?? MP3 doesn't even use the arranger's own sounds. Using MP3s is so much like a DJ you could leave the keybed at home... No reference to a "one man band" there...

ditto...

Then I'd rather call myself One Man DJ instead of One Man Band if you're in favour of using MP3...

I knew this would happen as I mentioned in the OP about resentment,....reading all these posts that are so off course.
Why can't people just appreciate music in any shape or form created using whatever means necessary to create musical interpretation of which there are NO rules. The more you step out of the box the more respect I have for that musicians creativity to record or play with custom Styles, SMF, Mp3 backing tracks, synths, acoustic, vocals, who cares just create music to listen & enjoy.

“Close your eyes and Let music Set You Free.”
~~~~Charles Hart

That's a good one. Musical creativity in using MP3s. Got to remember that joke.

Rosetree

Just curious. Could you name the working OMB entertainers you know of and how they preform IE: Just keyboard (Piano) , keyboard with vocals, Arranger with Styles, Arranger with SMF or MP3 etc. And also if you could where are they playing ?
Please leave out NHs and AL places.
Thanks

I can only speak about Germany, where as far as I've seen (and I haven't seen many) they definitely use styles and (sadly) third-party midi files, and often they sing. To what degree they even use MP3 I don't know. But even if it were the vast majority it wouldn't change a bit of my opinion. Unless they use MP3 during "club disco" times during the evening in the role of a DJ, moving away from their keyboard and clearly showing that they stopped playing themselves - that's something else.

Me, Bill, if you consider performing in a small restaurant for a dancing crowd and an independent living community's nite club for happy hour. I just use the arranger and my vocals, a both locations, draw increasing larger crowds, and wow the audiences every time I perform. Now, instead of working the NH/AS circuit, which I've retired from,and working 7 days a week, I now only work a few jobs a month, which is what I prefer. I could work a nightly, bar/restaurant schedule, which I did when I was young, and back then I might use one midi file a night, but that's it. I do know of a couple guitar player guys that use SMF for backing, but over the years, they've kinda faded in to the past and only work one or two jobs a month at best, and usually never at the same place twice in a month. So, not all of us use SMF in order to be a good entertainer. I don't believe DonM uses any at all.

Gary

I must make my comments here as a trained Piano and Guitar player for over 30 years i must say this is a topic that keeps comming up

I use SMF most of the time because I am playing a full score ether on a Piano or a Guitar I find it to be the fullest sound it not because I can play styles like most of the comments seen to lead too here quite the contrary I can play style as good as any one I just find a High qlty SMF TO Be better period

now I also play style in a night but I can get a true rep of the song I am doing .

now I get the creative aspect that some speak about and I do like that but to take the attutude that if you play SMF in your Gig you are not a musican well that simply wrong I take any of you guys on in the Musicanship area so some of you making this claim are just simply wrong I dont make comments on some of the stuff I here that sound very thin and I dont make comments on some of the vocals I here here in this forum because it is you passion and everybody has the right to enjoy Music and that is what it should be .

I play to many very large concert events as a front man vocal and Guitar and Keyboard player using SMF allow me to get the job done and be a Exciting and energy Driven Entertainer I make many of my own and also buy some as well and put on a first class show so to make a claim that if you are not a Musican if you use SMF be carful what you say guys because you could not be more wrong.

Ditto...Ditto...DITTO!!

For my part, I mainly spoke about MP3. If SMF files are used the way you describe it with fully active playing with both hands, I don't have a big problem with it (even if I prefer self-made ones).

whats the difference you can record a SMf then convert it to Mp3 play it back and play on top of it one hand or two hand parts and sing too...no problem.

Basically you will loose quallity with a non lossless compression like mp3...


Seriously, when playing you need to ask yourself, are you an entertainer ( because thats generally what people pay you for as an OMB) if your answer to that question is yes, then it does not matter how, as long as you entertain...


But then, if you play with a trio in a bluescafe, thats where you are seen as a musician, where people come not to be entertained, but where they come to listen to your live performance..

Its all about the situation your in. I too can play both hands and feet if necessary with a Style. Used to do it with a real drummer in a duo and then alone with a drum machine. Done lots of solo Piano work too. Bhe SMFs, if used and edited correctly just sound better with me playing just the keyboard part as I would do with a band. And you can concentrate on your Vocals more.
I refused to DJ for a log time but came around and got lots of work. I refused to use SMFs because I felt it was cheating. But after doing it and playing along liveI've changed my mind. The music business has steadly opened up to those with lesser and lesser talent and we can't change that.
Just do the best we can to satisfy ourselves and most important out audiences.

Everything we use carries a negative and a positive.

Much of today’s music gains its popularity from the effects and added lines which support the melody. For this reason midi files are needed – in most cases you cannot play the song without background voice and added lines. So midi files and Mp3 are used. This does not add or take away from a performer.
The negative side:

Most music, not all, increases the tempo of the song to create excitement. It is also one of the main reasons to modulate to the next higher key. The change of tempo is very slight, hard to notice, but it is felt. The excitement in the player is transferred by tempo and key changes. Sweet Georgia Brown changes, Y M C A does not change. On an up tempo my guitar is just ahead of the beat. On a slow song it lags behind. Two different feels, one brings excitement and the other gives a laid back feeling.

The bad news: I know no was an OMB or a midi file can do that. The first time I did a single with a rhythm machine I left frustrated; the heart of my performance was missing, I had become a machine. Mp3 can.
All that just to say, SO WHAT. The criterias for judging must be stated before commenting. I have a keyboard and if I get fulfillment and joy from my performance I’ve won the game. If I need the dollars a new criteria takes place.

Guys, it’s all good, but we lag a bit in ourselves; hence we have to knock somebody. I love the people here, their music and ideas; and especially the crazy conversation that go on – they add to my day.

John C.

You can be an entertainer and a musician too!
Pianist, guitarist, or any soloist for that matter can play what ever he/she likes to give their best. AND use whatever they can and want to embellish their rendition, OK, as long as the style or smf or even the MP3 is not used in place of their rendition i.e. that's faking it to me.

To me, some are saying you should not use these on the keyboard you buy, is like, saying you should not wear a hat or that jacket or big smile when you go onstage to perform, it's fake and should not be part of the show/act/perform/rendition etc... that would just going too far.

If this was about guitars, would some say the same about stomp pedals and loop machines?? lol Sorry Nigel, just stirring....


Allan