#421403 - 05/18/1602:22 AMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: Ketron_AJ]
Bachus
Senior Member
Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Ketron_AJ
KETRON's approach is pretty unique and high tech... which does allow for Playback and Recording of the entire performance (including AUDIO DRUMS) onto the storage device! This means you can use a style that utilizes Audio drums, Audio bass and Audio Guitars, play along or sing as well and record everything to either a wave or MP3 file!
With the Audio elements being streamed from the hard/SS drive, very little memory is needed on board to process them.
As to the question of if you need Audio Drums or not, the answer lies in what you have and where you want to be with it. If a manufacturer has solid drum kit samples that can be triggered via midi to create a great drum set, then Audio drums are less likely to get them excited (but will still be a great add on of course) as compared to one whose midi drum kits are sub par ... adding Audio drums to such an instrument will really make it shine. Now consider having great midi drum kits PLUS Audio drums (like AUDYA/SD9), and you're in a class of your own.
AJ is Ketron planning to make the multi channel audio player compatible with the NI stems format?
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#421410 - 05/18/1608:01 AMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: ]
rosetree
Unregistered
Originally Posted By: rosetree
On Saturday I made a multi-track recording, inspired by Klaus Doldinger's 80th birthday, it's the beginning of the Tatort TV theme (German criminal series with a long tradition).
It's still a raw version, I played each track manually on my Roland/Cakewalk A-300pro, connected to the Integra-7. Also the drum track.
Take a listen especially to the drums. As I said, it's still a raw version, but don't the drums sound very lively and real already? It's done with the Integra SuperNatural 'Session' drum set. If all arranger styles came with midi drums recorded manually like this, honestly I don't see the point of audio drums (which you can't edit). I think the problem of many midi styles is just that they were created by a computer and not midi-recorded by a human being on a keyboard or on pads.
Just for those who are interested, I have completed this TV music now (16 tracks!), with an improvisation part following (as Klaus Doldinger is a jazz musician, he had free improvisations in it, too). In the very last part, brass and strings come back in, creating a very dense, thrilling atmosphere:
#421421 - 05/18/1602:16 PMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: ]
montunoman
Senior Member
Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3230
Loc: Dallas, Texas
I believe that there many nuances, subtitles, and definitely FEEL/GROOVE that MIDI drums can not fully capture. I guess it is what is more important to the performer; complete control over the drum track or the authenticity of human feel/groove/ nuances. It's nice that some of our keyboards offer us both choices.
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#421424 - 05/18/1602:55 PMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: montunoman]
rosetree
Unregistered
Originally Posted By: montunoman
I believe that there many nuances, subtitles, and definitely FEEL/GROOVE that MIDI drums can not fully capture. I guess it is what is more important to the performer; complete control over the drum track or the authenticity of human feel/groove/ nuances. It's nice that some of our keyboards offer us both choices.
Are you saying this has no feel and groove? These are midi drums:
#421425 - 05/18/1603:17 PMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: ]
rosetree
Unregistered
Some seem to be mixing up two things and associate the wrong things to "midi drums":
"Midi drums" does NOT necessarily mean that the drum rhythm is generated by a machine instead of a human being. Like you record an audio drum sequence from a real drummer, you can record a whole sequence played by a real drummer the same way via midi when a good midi drum set is used.
The problem with arranger styles is that the manufacturers haven't invested in drum sessions with a human drummer - but it wouldn't be necessary to go as far as to record "audio" drums - midi drums would create the real feeling as presented in the video above - but then you could STILL edit it afterwards.
#421436 - 05/19/1604:43 AMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: montunoman]
Bachus
Senior Member
Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: montunoman
I believe that there many nuances, subtitles, and definitely FEEL/GROOVE that MIDI drums can not fully capture. I guess it is what is more important to the performer; complete control over the drum track or the authenticity of human feel/groove/ nuances. It's nice that some of our keyboards offer us both choices.
I disagree with you on that... Where it comes to high end drum vst's...
I agree with you where it comes to arrangers...
Drums, is still an area where arrangers can make a huge step forward... Some time ago, i posted a video about the drummer in my logic X, it is so flexible, so controllable in real time.. It blows away any audio drum recordings, if such a thing was utilized in the same way inside an arranger.. You have full controll not only over the groove, but also over the swing and how busy and agrressive the drummer is...
In audio drums, even a 32 measures drum is just a loop that repeats itselves...
Not that audio drums are bad, currently they are still the highest quallity available in arrangers. Tough Korg pa4x comes quite close to audya audio drum quallity.. And Roalnd V-drum also is top knotch, yet not available in arrangers. I have some custom drums with roundrobin on the Kronos, which also make any drum track quite dynamic..
Edited by Bachus (05/19/1604:45 AM)
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#421447 - 05/19/1609:57 AMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: ]
montunoman
Senior Member
Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3230
Loc: Dallas, Texas
Are you saying this has no feel and groove? These are midi drums:
[/quote]
That drummer absolutely has great feel and groove. But it still sounds electronic- especially the fast single strokes and strange cymbal decay. That electronic sound will work fine for most modern popular music. But I don't think you'll find professional drummer playing in more subtle styles of music, such as acoustic jazz or be-bop favoring an electronic kit over an acoustic kit.
Electronic pads are even poorer at reproducing hand drums. Like I said, the e-drums are fine for most modern pop music. In fact, I love the idea that you talked about in your original post about having live drummers using e-drums used in the productions of styles for arranger keyboards. That would give us arranger keyboardists the best of both worlds: A good live feel with more control of the final output.
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It not the keyboard, it's the keyboardist.
#421449 - 05/19/1610:39 AMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: ]
DanO1
Senior Member
Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 3602
Loc: Maryland
Bachus- I totally disagree with your opinions on drums. Please listen to any song on my reverbnation site and listen to the drum tracks. Everything you hear was recorded in 2002. I have not had one person save the drums sound bad. They may say the music I created sucks, but no one said the drums sound bad.
Many people forget General Music had a on board hard drive and the ability to syncopate samples with a arranger keybord, scroll notation & lyrics in 1998.
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