It's summer time and I've been traveling all over the area which by the way is a big tourist destination all over the shore and sadly after looking at so many acts playing in bars, clubs, pools, hotels, boardwalks, I haven't seen an arranger kb being used by anyone,.....yes DJ's, KJ's, Bands, Duos, Singles, etc, but no arrangers, sadly the writing is on the wall, Nursing homes etc is another story if that's where you want to perform, you can get away with it, .........I'm afraid it's time has come, slowly, but it's inevitable. Times are changing in live music. I'm glad I was a part of it it was a nice ride.

I know you periodically bring this up, Donny. Sometimes I think it's just to get the troops riled up (nothing wrong with an occasional little forum 'dust-up'). But the truth is, you're right on at least one count; in all my years playing in and patronizing clubs (never been much of a bar goer except for gigs), I've NEVER seen an arranger keyboard in a club or bar (or dance, or party, or parade, or carnival, or ....). Since they've been around since the early 80's, I'd say it's unlikely they will ever become prominent in those venues. The thing is, young people don't buy them (or want to be associated with them), and old musicians who MIGHT buy them are past playing the club/bar scene.

I'm guessing younger club patrons would not accept arranger music as it currently exists. The styles is today's arrangers cannot compete with live music or even DJ's playing recordings of live music. Also, you won't see the kind of interaction (with an arranger performance) you see between musician and audience in a live setting. Maybe one day they'll reach that level of authenticity, but not today.

Don't hate the messenger.

chas

I think about this a lot. I too have been traveling a bit on the Golf Coast and through out CA. I went to several venues featuring live music that featured solo acts, and mostly always they have singer/guitar performing without tracks.

I think people have become a bit jaded by the use of technology in music, and when they go out to hear live music, they don't want to hear anything that can be perceived as karaoke. Anyone can do karaoke at home now. I would think your average person who see's a guy playing an arranger keyboard probably just assumes that the keyboardist is playing to pre recorded music, which is commonly thought of as karaoke. If someone aspires to be a professional karaoke singer, they better be exceptionally good, because anyone can sing to tracks at home or at all the clubs that have karaoke nights. Same goes for arranger players, if they are out playing out in public for pay, they have to be very good singers and good players too. They have to be able to entertain. It's a bit harder to have much flash/flair/showmanship playing arranger keyboards. Guitar players can move around, a karaoke singer with a wireless mic can go up to any table in the club. An arranger player has to keep the left hand pretty much still to play chords (that not that entertaining to watch, is it?) An arranger KB player can't move around even like a traditional pianist can because the left hand is a slave to the auto accompaniment.

In general, I think the public wants to see people really playing and an arranger keyboard is perceived as just too cheesy/fake no matter how hip the styles and sounds are.

Just my two cents

I have to disagree.

The work is out there.

Never did a nursing home.

This week my Duo is booked for 2 picnics, a house party, and the weekly restaurant job.

The caterer that did the picnic today asked for our card and is interested in booking us at her restaurant.

Regards,

Jerryghr

For what it's worth...maybe some are overthinking this.

We live in western MN, land of 10,000 lakes...big vacationland here and lots of live music.
Nobody cares if a small duo is using an arranger..most folks in the audience don't have a clue or care how the music is made...they just know whether they like it or not.

Different venues are looking for different types of music be it Karoke, bands, DJ's or whatever.

If arranger days are numbered, why do manufacturers keep producing new models? Is that because there’s an audience out there to enjoy arranger playing, or just for the benefit of buyers, like us? My patrons are basically middle age to senior folks, who seem to want music they recognize and enjoy----not how it’s made or presented to them. To provide a little more variety in my solo routine, I’ve been seriously thinking about moving back toward guitar more, with vocals, using backing tracks created on arrangers. Would the end result be any different than simply playing the arranger straight away?

I dont think anyone will ask for an arranger player specifically... they will ask for a one man entertainer.. does it matter if the Job is done with an arranger keyboard or in another way to them?

Overhere in Holland and Germany there is still quite some one man band acts using arrangers...

the funny thing is that an arranger keyboard for live performing is a bit of a contradiction in itself. People going out, and certainly the younger ones, want to be entertained and could not care less whether it is live, pre-recorded, karaoke or whatever definition you want to attach to it. they DO want the "feast of recognition ". Whether it is Elvis or Beyonce that you are performing, they want to recognise the song and generally ( with the odd exeption ) they prefer the song to be as close to the original as possible. Hence the many SongStyles that in particular Yamaha is famous for.
But an ARRANGER keyboard as the name suggests lends itself uniquely to arranging a song even in a realm beyond your wildest dreams. Sometimes these new arrangements are so far removed from the original that people cannot be bothered. If they recognize the song at all they will probably remark that it is way of base. Personally I have had no problems with that as I rarely perform live, and never with my arranger keyboards.
By contrast I have often endeavoured to firmly uproot the original arrangement of a song, yes at times even beyond recognition. Hence I think that for the time being the arranger keyboard will be around for some time to come but that for live performances it will dwindle into obscurity within the next 10 years. ( though many choirs for instance often have an arranger keyboard, be it that they are often used for their sounds, so as a workstation really, rather than for their styles.
Just my thoughts,

regards,
John

I have a difficult time believing that. If true, then why not just use a $5 MP3 player instead of a $5000 Tyros 5? That's saying that no one cares about the musical talent, prowess, accomplishments, etc. of the performer - that he/she could be playing CD's behind a big curtain ala Wizard of Oz. I, personally, would never want to play for such an audience who, according to your statement, couldn't care less about the performer, as a person or as a musician.

I've read where many of you go to great lengths to make sure the audiences know it's YOU playing; WHY? if it makes no difference. Truth is, they aren't going to believe it's you playing bass, drums, strings, brass, piano, and guitar all at the same time anyway (unless you're an octopus). Of course, an audience's reaction to (the source of the) music is very much dependent upon the venue and the age and sophistication of the audience; for instance, you will NEVER, EVER see an arranger in a true Jazz club if you live to be 200. Same is probably true of any hard-core genre' club, be it Country, Rock, or Blues. The audience will INSIST on real musicians playing real music on real instruments.

Now that's not to say that Arrangers don't have a place in the music world. The 'instant gratification' factor alone is a powerful buying incentive, especially for the marginally skilled (but well-heeled) non-pro home player. It is also well-suited for less demanding audiences such as Nursing homes, particularly for solo entertainers where the emphasis is on SINGING and the arranger is merely an alternative to 'backing tracks'.

So.....will the arranger keyboard fade into oblivion (as predicted by DNJ) as did it's predecessor, the auto-accomp. organ? Probably not, at least not in the immediate future. We tend to base everything on what we see in the AMERICAN market which, surprisingly, is not the only market in the world. It will probably never replace live bands (nor was that probably ever it's purpose) in most venues but will probably continue to remain popular with a small cadre of OMB performers who want to differentiate themselves from their 'backing tracks' counterparts.

Just my .02 cents worth.

chas

Wow, a lot being said here.
The big picture:

1-The arranger player today should be using whatever he needs to do a complete job. Karaoke is needed for many of the songs today. Many of the today songs have uninteresting melodies and without the different fills and original rhythm the song falls short.

2-One Man Band VS a karaoke player. No contest. OMB using an arranger keyboard and Midi Files; with the same talent can do a much better job.

3-OMB Vs a live duo or trio, no contest. But that is like comparing apples and oranges. The price and having more than one talent performing makes it a bad comparison.

4-Organs have lost their popularity. Yet they can do everything an arranger keyboard can do and more. When an organ store demos an organ it normally sounds just like an organ. My point; it is the player that killed the organ popularity not the instrument. The same for arranger keyboards.

About ten years ago an update country club called; they wanted a piano player for their dining room. When I told them I played a keyboard they said no. I said, try me for one night. I turned every band sound in my Kn7000 into pianos and soft guitars. I was at the country club for six years. When they hired me for a party I gave them the rest of the keyboard; Disco, Big Band, Latin ----- they were well pleased.
I believe that if the younger players truly understood the potential of the arranger keyboard they would own one.

John C.

lets not forget the OP we are talking LIVE venues in todays atmosphere...not your living room.
I don't fight change ....I embrace it and adapt. Nothing lats for ever.

Actually the OP is talking live venues in the US of A... Which has never been arranger country in the first place..

When I travel in Mexico I do see lots guys performing with arrangers but not here in the U.S.

so that's an indication that it's more prevalent in Europe, Latin countries, etc, vs the USA telling you that recreating american style music with an arranger kb is less popular in some ways to the masses, .......automatic computerized music just keeps changing like any other technological devices and will continue to do so for many years to come for sure.Making yourself happy playing music in your home is one thing and fine at that,.........doing it professionally for the ever changing public tastes and trends for money is a totally other ball game.
Its all good its Music.

Lots of good comments here and I agree I've never seen an Arranger Player out there either. I use one because it allows me to sound bigger and more danceable. At the Jersey Shore I got introduced to all the acts using tracks. Solo's, dous, trios, etc.
I gave in and started using them too. I don't like it and even though I still plsy the keyboard parts I feel like a Kareoke singer.
I now use Styles, SMF, and DJ. As others have said people don't care how the music comes out as long as its good and you have good vocals.
Here in the South its Guitar land and people really don't relate to the keyboard. Just saw a duo last night. Guy strumming an acoustic and singing with his wife. They were borderline OK but thats the norm here.
I'm not doing the Johnny Lounge thing with the wireless mic and total canned music, its not me. So I guess I'll just hang on.

Good post Bill it's sad but true...

Atta boy Bill, you can prostitute yourself just so far. You have to live with yourself too.

Bernie

I think I have expressed my preference more than once here, which is that I would much prefer to play with other musicians than do a solo act ... but I have seen several venues where there is a solo or duo vocalist(s) singing to backing tracks on a laptop, so I have one question: why is THAT more acceptable than a OMB performing with an arranger???
Also, I have seen many 3 - 4 piece pop groups using a KB to play backing tracks to 'enhance' the arrangements of songs they are playing, because they don't have enough musicians to play the entire arrangement - why is THAT more acceptable than a OMB performing with an arranger???

I recently saw a quite popular 8 piece 50's - 60's cover band out of NY playing at one of the Connecticut casinos ... during one song I asked my wife to see who was singing a certain background vocal part - she said she didn't see anyone singing it ... I said "exactly my point in asking..."

As for not seeing an arranger in a band - PLEASE,WE HAVE BEATEN THAT HORSE TO DEATH - the reason is that there are other MUSICIANS playing the accompaniment part that the arranger does for a OMB !

I don't know how long AKBs and/or OMBs will be popular but I am fairly sure they will outlive me ... or at least my playing career ...
And I will enjoy playing until no one hires me anymore ...

And I will enjoy playing until no one hires me anymore ...

You and me both. As I've said numerous times before no one cares how the music comes out as long as its good and the vocals are always the focal point. Live, tracks, don't matter no one knows or cares.

Btw another of my favorite quotes is "you don't leave the business, its leaves you "
AKA Crazy Hugie from Keansburg NJ in the 70's. The man had vision LOL !!!

Huey was a legend at the Shore Point Inn!! All Rando is still gigging at Brennans too.

Al Rando is still playing ! Haven' t seen him in years . Last time he gave up the big setup and was using a Yamaha doing lots of piano/ strings kind of things. We went to Brennan's for my birthday to see him as we did for a lot of years
Wow I' m happy to know he's still doing it , one of the all time greats.
And Hugie what can you say I can still picture him at the Shore Point with his 4 EV Pa Cabinets , ( monster setup for the time) Hammond B2000, and a drum machine pounding a steady bass beat so his drummer " Kanas City Al" could play along . People with "Hugies Organ Riders" T shirts singing along. Good times for a OMB

Yep... Al Rando still sounding amazing!! And Frankie Fingers is still at the Crab Claw Inn!!!

I read this thread two times, thought about it today while scrubbing down the boat and cleaning up the cabin from last week's trip and something immediately came to mind.

First and foremost, people want to be entertained - period! They really don't give a damned if it's live, DJ, KJ, or OMB with a guitar or keyboard - they just want to be entertained, and they want to hear the music they enjoy. The younger crowd tends to want ear bleed volumes, and rarely dance. The older, more conservative crowds want volume levels that are a bit more comfortable so they can dance. Then, there is a group that wants, for some strange reason, to sit at a table with a glass of booze and talk. The older ones tend to talk to each other, while the youngsters sit there and text.

Will arranger keyboards soon become a thing of the past? I seriously doubt it. But every six months of so Donny brings up this same, old subject in an attempt to stir the waters, often quite successfully. And, as noted by others, the same old crew chimes in with pretty much the same statements.

A couple weeks ago, I stopped by The Union Hotel near Port Deposit, Maryland, a popular spot for the bikers on the weekends. Nearly every Sunday, 500 plus bikers arrive to show off their sporty choppers, custom bikes, three wheelers, etc... The restaurant only has about a dozen tables, each of which seat 4, and the bikers rarely go into the restaurant. On Saturday nights, they usually have a local band, many of which are talented. Take a look at the band list.

Now, the one thing that every band seems to have in common is incredibly high volumes - EAR BLEED! They tend to do the same thing that nearly every DJ or KJ I heard does. When the crowd fails to respond, instead of trying to determine why, just crank up the volume. Sound familiar. This mentality, IMO, is insane, but what the Hell do I know?

While sitting at the bar and listening to one of the bands a few weeks ago, someone came up to me and asked if I was the guy that used to play at the American Legion in Perryville and Havre de Grace, to which I responded, yes. "Wow, I thought I recognized you. How come you're not playing here - everyone would love you." I explained that first and foremost, I don't play for $150 a night, which is what the pay scale averages at this location. I also told him that I recently retired and was spending my free time sailing out of Perryville. He said if I ever decided to reconsider and come out of retirement, I could have a job at this location every Friday night if I wanted.

Gary

Just spent the last couple of nights in Las Vegas. Believe me arranger keyboards are still a force with acts here where a keyboard player and a singer present a presence in casinos. Arranger keyboards are still popular in Vegas and aren't going anywhere. The act I heard tonight was a female singer and a keyboard player singer with a PSR-3000 and they put on a great show.

Nigel great news from sin city...there still is hope I guess.
Gary your so right this topic keeps people talking about arrangers good or bad, enjoy your retirement.Just pass the torch, set sail, and remember the good times, nothing wrong with that.

Do you remember which casino(s) you saw an arranger act in? I recently did the strip and downtown and didn't see any.
Eddie

Until recently, there were more than a dozen club entertainers in the Baltimore Metropolitan area who exclusively used arranger keyboards as their sole instrument. Some were members of this forum and included myself, Ray Bastianelli, Joe Ayala, Jimmy (jimsax) McKinney, Dennis Fox, Johnny Walker, Jerry and Elsa Burns, Gary Alesandro, Helmut Licht, Larry Scott, Bob Lee, Norm & Carlos, and a few more than I can no longer recall their names. Most of them worked in Baltimore's Little Italy, the Inner Harbor, and clubs in the surrounding counties for decades, relying on their keyboards and vocals. The vast majority never used midi files and did everything using onboard and third party style files. Nearly every one of them switched to the NH circuit, but still continued to play weekends in the restaurants and clubs, mainly for the money. As many of you are well aware, the NH circuit is far more lucrative than the club circuit in this part of the world.

Some of the above listed entertainers have passed away in recent years, and I miss them dearly. I believe I'm the only one that has managed to retire, which is something I'm proud of. So, at least in this part of the country, arranger keyboard entertainers are still in the game and going strong.

Gary

I'm only observing the lack of them on stages in a big area around here... Excluding Nursing Homes..

There are still a few in use around here, but I believe I'm about the only one who does a single with one. DickieT does a trio a couple of times a month. One guy has been at one of the casinos for years, and is playing an ancient Technics I think. He is pretty good. He uses a synth with it for lead sounds, and maybe a piano module. I think he must have an uncle or something running things there.
One of the Mexican restaurants has several locations and quite often has arranger players up from Mexico. They don't use their real names. Every one of them I've seen has been very good. They don't stay in one place very long. Too much exposure isn't good for illegals. Problem is they work very cheap.

When Carol and I were in Mexico, we saw several arranger players who were great singers as well.

Gary