I have no great desire to get back into playing live music......because......I have no desire to play this PA3x that I currently have. I have no desire to play the PA3x......because......I'm not happy with those styles. Too many country and rock and not enough traditional. And the styles are over-done and in your face and not enough variations.

But I do love everything else about the keyboard. So I've been watching a lot of videos that are demo-ing the PA4x. I'm very impressed with the new styles. Or what I heard anyway. But what I did hear comes across as very playable.

Aside from the sounds, can anyone tell me about the styles? Do you think they're an improvement, sound quality much better, about how many new ones are there, do they now have decent marches, Strauss, tarantella, Irish jig, paso doble, etc? They're limp in the PA3x.

I'm thinking about "eating" this PA3x and hitting the bank account for a 4x. Frank already gave me a good price. If you guy advise me there's a noticeable difference in the two units, my next step will be to drive up to Frank's place to try one out.

Mark

Mark,

No experience with a PA 3X and...

I'm sure you'll hear from those older and wiser than me...

That said.

I'm now using a PA 4X. I also have a Yamaha Tyros 4(going on sale)and S970. The styles on the PA 4X are not as wide and deep as my Yammies...especially traditional/folk.

However, I've been able to adapt PA 4X styles(for the most part) to my needs. I play two to three times a week(or more) for seniors. I very much like the 4X styles...very alive and the seniors I play for also seem to like it.

Also I really like the 4X interface and controls for live play...more so than my Yammies. If all goes well, I'll sell both Yammies and settle on the 4X.

Mark, there is a huge collection of high quallity pa3x/pa4x user styles available....

Did you try and addapt these user styles for your needs?


Now i am not really an expert on Korg, but i think there should be enough high quallity user styles available for both these instruments....

I dont think the overall style selections for pa3x and pa4x are very much diffenernt? But if you have a large collection of high quallity midi files, you might convert them in styles for the pa4x...


When it comes to Yamaha, the number of high quallity usable user styles for traditionall music is nearly unlimmited...

Pa4x is more of a performance arranger. It's built for stage. You would probably be better of with S970 if you want to play what you mentioned in your post.

What about the "Musikant" version of PA-4X? It should be full of traditional styles.

http://www.thomann.de/gb/korg_pro_pa_4x61_musikant.htm

http://www.korg.com/de/products/synthesizers/p4x_musikant/

Korg seems to offer this specifically for German-language countries (DACH). I don't know if it is available for North America.

Well I love it, as you know. There are lots of new styles, and the old ones sound way better because of the new sound generation system.
All styles from previous models work, including Musikant, and they sound better on the 4X. Love the new guitars in particular!
I will probably have this kb until one or both of us fall apart.

Or until Tyros 6 is released, just sayin'....

Pa4x has my vote. Pretty much what Don Mason said!

Don,

On guitars 4X...

I find the Strat/Les Paul sounds to be good...or overdriven guitars. The acoustic guitars and steel seem to be lacking compared to my Yammies.

What are the new guitars that you like?

I have the S970 and PA4x, and while the S970 is a great improvement over the S910 and S950, all around, there is no question in my mind that the Korg is king for performance.

Like Don, we'll grow old together.

Bernie

DNJ, Not sure I'd take a Tyros if you gave me one. Just not for me.

I thought about waiting for a Tyros 6....and who knows what the future will bring?

Thing is, if a Tyros 6 appears, and that is IF, it will most likely be twice what I paid for my PA 4X. And how big will it be? My 4X has all the controls(and then some)of my Tyros and it's actually smaller than my S970.

Also the next Yammie arranger flagship could also just be a slight upgrade from the Tyros 5. It appeared to me that the Tyros 5 was just an incremental upgrade from the Tyros 4 but in all honesty, I never played a Tyros 5.

Also, I'm 67 and not sure I wanted to wait until I'm 69 or 70 to start working with a Tyros 6...if there ever is such a thing.

My PA 4X hasn't completely replaced my Yammies yet....but this 4X sure has the potential.

Don..... We'll see when T6 arrives lol

Remember ... it is DON, not DONNY

T6 would have to be a completely new keyboard, with completely new sound system and operating system, and vocal processor, and price reduction of 40 percent, and weight and size reduction. That's not going to happen.

sounds like your talking about the new S980 Don... ;-)

Open your mind. Yamaha isn't for me. Unless they change a lot of things. And they aren't going to do that.

Different strokes for different folks!

Gary

A while back I was at a music store near here. They had a Yamaha Clavinova of some sort...around $12,000 or something like that. The piano had arranger functions...but, near as I could tell, not even as sophisticated as my $800 DGX 650.

I can't imagine Yamaha making big changes in the TOTL arranger; if they would make any changes at all. Yamaha is not known for bang for the buck...???

Years back before I purchased a PSR 3000 I used a DGXxxx, for gigs I believe it could have been a DGX520 don't remember. Somewhere around 2005 bought a Clavinova 307, although I'm not familiar with the DGX650, the newest CVPs are more flexible and are more feature rich than the DGX series...........at $12k they better be AFAIK the CVP series still do not include "pads".

If anything, Yamaha will cut away few more features. Unfortunatelly.

The cvp 709 top model clavinova arranger is about €8000 overhere in Holland..

It has all the features of the tyors 5 except for organworld, ensemble voices and multipads.. On top of that it has the high end piano,s of the CP range, and superb build in amplification and speakersystem, and offcourse its a beatifull piece of furniture... And the best piano keybed Yamaha builds

You cant compare that to a cluncky DGX with low end piano keybed, plasticky feel and low end (psr 400 range) styles...

My brother, a pianist, is a lot more interested in key bed, acoustic sound and the 'furniture' look. He has talked about a Clavinova. He owns a Yamaha acoustic piano.

Thing is, arranger functions are a very low priority for him. And that's a good thing given that arranger functions appear to be very much an afterthought in the Clavinova line.

T6 would have to be completely new - surely Yamaha cant get away with releasing another tweaked version of the current RISC based machine? For example, the processor and OS limits the screen resolution with no possibility of touch screen either as its not supported under such ancient tech. Yamaha have already performed miracles with the T series, but there is only so many Rabbits you can pull out of the same hat

One other thought...

My brother, plus two close friends have made a good share of their living playing acoustic pianos. They seem to have very little interest in arrangers...don't see them as the real thing. I don't think I could give them an arranger if I tried.

And, they could care less what arranger functions a piano has.

Well....


To me my setup is
- piano
- synthesizer
- organ
- arranger
- sequencer
- drum computer

All united in 2 instruments...
I am a home player
And i use them to have fun..
To play my music...

But then maybe if i had the skills of a professionall classical piano players, i would have a different opinion



Even for pro players arrangers have some use, however not many realise how they can turn them into anything usefull.. Not so much for playing live, but for composing and trying out new musicall ideas arrangers are very usefull...

There's an excitement and pleasure about playing an acoustic piano that's hard to put into words. It can only be felt.

I started out as an arranger player and then took on the piano. I at first thought an arranger was the cat's meow....the greatest thing since sliced bread was invented. As I became more proficient at the piano, I found less satisfaction, NOT in playing an arranger, but the empty, digital, hollow sound it makes.

Playing an acoustic piano makes you feel like you're not just playing it, but you're a part of it!

Thanks for a bunch of great thoughts to consider that you guys presented to me before the thread went South.

Bachus.......I’m embarrassed to say I completely forgot I have hundreds of Korg PA3x styles I’ve picked up over the years (and a few of the members sent me theirs). It’s just that it’s going to take time to unzip them, put them in some kind of order, and then load them into the machine to audition. Still, whether it’s the PA3 or the PA4, that’s what’s going to have to be done.

Mirza.......I’ve thought about that. Switching to the Yamaha S970. I’ve always played either Roland or Yamaha over the years. Loved every style in them.

Rosetree.......the actual reason I bought a PA3x was because, at the time, I was emailing Jurgen about the Musikant styles. He was going to help me in some way. Then I found out the PA3x is not compatible with the Musikant version. I have the styles here that I could try. I believe the PA4x will take the Musikant styles. I watched Jurgen’s new 4x demos. I love how he uses that machine.......and.......THE STYLES.

Don M.......that’s what I thought I would hear….”lots of new styles”.......”new sound generation system.” You would know because you’ve had them both.

I think what I’m going to do first is go through the grind of sorting out and trying out all the Korg styles I’ve accumulated. A step at a time. After that I’ll see where I stand on buying a PA4x.

Then there’s this posted today:

My conclusion:Who must not be upgraded to Pa4X !

And finally, one of the members, a few weeks ago, suggested turning off the accompaniment (it makes the styles sound like a kiddie toy anyway) and using the “pads.” I’m going to look into that too.

But………I remember the first time I tried the PA3x in the store, I had people coming over to me as they entered to see where all the sound was coming from, and amazed that it was all from one keyboard. It’s not that I was so wonderful, but it was then I realized the Pa3x in full bloom sounds “BIG!”


Mark

If you're getting an empty, digital, hollow sound, you ain't doin' it right my friend!

Ditto.

A bit of nonsense here... In the cvp709 they use the same processing hardware in combination with a touchscreen..

Also the Montage still has risc based processing yet it also has a touchscreen..

The T6, or whatever it will be called will have the latest yamaha propriety hardware as seen in the Montage... Which means another small(er) step by yamaha..



The only company so far that made the step to high end intel based processing is Korg Japan, and only with the Kronos and Oasys... Korg Italy decided not to make that step for their arrangers...

The new chip Yamaha has developed (I don't have the exact name at hand right now) is used in S970 and Montage, but not yet in the T5. So that will be a certain upgrade of the T6, going along with a leap in waveform data size.

T6 or maybe a Totally NEW Line of arrangers would excite the masses.....
Yamaha is tight lipped, ....maybe a Montage technology driven arranger/hybrid fusion of some kind?

+1

Not only in waveform data size... But even more so a leap in DSP.. As in two insert effects for every sound...

I would suggest you "walk a mile in my shoes, etc" and after a few years of playing the piano, you'll hear the difference. No different than analog vs. digital.

That won't happen as I have zero interest in being a piano player. But feel free to send all your old arrangers to Louisiana and I'll find good homes for them!

It has recently improved quite a bit, but still, especially Yamaha's arranger piano samples still tend to be somewhat artificially bright.
But IMO, the main difference to a real piano is - by far - the PA system, which always fails to reproduce the natural frequencies as they would come out of the resonating body of the piano.

Hi Mark,
My styles are all sorted for my pa3x. Duplicates removed. (I hope.) I spent at least 3 weeks sorting out the duplicates. I found they can have a slightly different name, between the models, but same style.
It's an assortment of pa800, musikant ,pa1x etc, ( old factory , the ones missing on the pa3x. not tweaked but a lot of them sound ok) plus some user conversions of mine,and song styles.
As for the musikant, if I remember correctly, it had sounds the pa3x didn't , really a case of replacing it with something similar. I think I actually downloaded the manual at the time, soI could work out the type of sound it should be using ie doing a comparison.
I only tweak the styles if I find I need one.

You're welcome to have a copy of the styles.
Not much work required on your part, just load them and see what's useable for your needs.

Maybe rather than rush out and buy a pa4x, try some of these on your pa3x ( apparently they also work ok on the pa4x) and work out if the korg is really for you.

Sounds like you've had a bit of a love/hate relationship with the korg.

Btw , I ended up with the psrs950, l luv Yamaha styles, but I still keep going back to the korg. I convert if I really find I need one that my korg hasn't got, that I think I can't do without.

Rosetree.......you nailed it right there. There is nothing that will ever equal the sound of that hammer hitting the strings, the string vibrating and bouncing off the soundboard,and the sound waves then entering your ear canal. It's an acquired sensation. I play both arranger AND piano now, but I remember when I first started learning the piano, I ignored the arranger for a while. When I went back to it, I heard a hollowness in the electronic instrument simulation that I never heard before But you can't deny the analog vs. digital analogy.

Hi Rikki,

I'm glad you're back in business here. You bring a whole new dimension to the group. Not to mention a whole new bank of knowledge.

You already sent me quite a few of the styles you have (originals and modified). I counted 8 ZIP files from you. And, altogether, 307 ZIP files on my hard drive that I have to open yet. But I'm sure you've got more material since I received those files from you a few years ago.



Yes, thanks, I will keep that in mind. The Musikant demo's by Jurgen were the reason I bought this in the first place. I have some Musikant ZIP files here, maybe you can help me figure them out.

I'm still trying to get a decent cha-cha, tango, rhumba and a few other traditionals.

Jurgen Sartorius home page

Jurgen Sartorius styles




Yes, this time around I will do some serious thinking. Have even considered switching back to Yamaha, but the "build" is not as virtuous as the PA3.



That's putting it mildly, Rikki. Now, this is going to sound crazy to you, but I never heard it on my big speaker system. The only time I heard it unleashed was back before I owned one and I was playing it at Sam Ash. Been using earphones since I bought it. Sometimes I wonder about myself.

Thanks again for offering your help. I'm going to do what you said and take a whole day trying out what styles I do have here. I'm hoping the Musikant styles fill the bill if I/we can tweak them. I only want to get 10-15 basic styles.

Mark

Rikki.....I've just been watching a few Jurgen video's. Example:

KORG PA500 MUSIKANT

I'm really into those Musikant styles. And watch how clever he uses those styles (pads, drum breaks, etc).

First things first. I never quite understood the different Musikant models. Can you, or anyone, tell me exactly what Musikant keyboards they have\had in Europe. I didn't even know there was a PA-500 Musikant.

I'm assuming each Musikant model had their own styles.

If I'm correct, when the PA3x came out here there was the same unit in Europe but with different styles (more European). Then the same thing with the 4X.

What European boards are my unaware of? Do ALL European Musikant styles have to be tweaked to play correctly on the PA3x?

Kawai has some digital piano's that have a real soundboard in there..

Digital Piano's like yamaha cvp have a specially created amp and speaker system that allows the. To come closer to a real piano sound then an arranger currently does...

Same goes for the montage... Their A/D conversion has parts that make a piano sound more naturall ..

And then there is the high end VSTs like pianoteq that are not sample based, but are a mathematicall model that calculates the sound


There have been done some tests where people where asked to tell the real piano's from the digital piano's and most musicians and most had a hard time doing so...




Yet still people have preferences in sound, i prefer a Steinway or Fazioli over a Yamaha sound grand... Current high end digital piano's are that good, that its a matter of prefference what sampled model to use...

[quote=Mark79100]

You already sent me quite a few of the styles you have (originals and modified). I counted 8 ZIP files from you. And, altogether, 307 ZIP files on my hard drive that I have to open yet. But I'm sure you've got more material since I received those files from you a few years ago.

[quote=rikkisbears]
Hi Mark,
not sure if what you have is all them.
Mine are favourites 1 to 15. Basically includes every factory style I came across that wasn't on my pa3x. Did you actually buy some of Jurgen's styles? If so I got the impression they were available for the regular korgs as well as the musikant versions, but I could be wrong. My German is all but non existent and my iPad didn't give me a translation option.


I also play rhumba etc so maybe we can sort something out for you, maybe something could be converted if the musikants don't fit the bill.

Unfortunately it's late, I'll be back tomorrow .

P.s
You would have luved my piano's.
I had 5ft baby Yamaha grand .

And the most amazing one was my 1990 Yamaha disklavier.
Upright midi acoustic. I used to have my Roland arranger module midied to it. Sometimes my keyboards.
Unfortunately both had to go when we downsized our home. No room.

After 5 gigs with the 4X, I have no doubts that the 4X is more gig friendly than my Yammies...controls and songbook wise.

The styles and voices/sounds are a trade off between the Korg and the Yamaha. For example, where I used to do more bluegrass styles on my S970, I now do more country types of styles for my older tunes. And so it goes.

It's also obvious that the Korg is easier to edit styles/voices and I'm hoping to get better at that as time goes on.

Rog L

Hi Rog
Voice editing, I've never really been involved with, I was silly enough to put together a sampled Ketron live drumkit for a single style i 'd converted, an orchestral swing. Really luved that style.

The style editing/creating I s brilliant in the Korg's. You can copy style tracks to pads & vice versa. You can export the style as a midifile to a sequencer for editing. Unlike with the Yamaha , each of the style tracks can be event list edited in the keyboard itself.
The list of stuff that can be done is pretty amazing, and I don 't even have the song to style convertor in my pa3x(darn).

Great to hear you 're enjoying your korg, if you need any extra styles ( prior korg keyboards) you 're welcome to have a copy.

All Korg needs to do is put the pa4x and the kronos in a single instrument.... And then call it the KORGan... With two 76 key manualls, upper waterfall, lower weighted piano action...and joystick and 16 drumpads to the left side...

Price about €6000 - 7000 weight under 20 kg..


I think KORGAN or K-ORG-AN sounds really cool

Tx Rikki

quit stirring an empty pot!

Bachus........I've played just about every digital piano in the stores by now. I like the sound of all of them (except that cheapo Korg, I remember). But I was about to buy either a Privia or a Yamaha digital. They both sounded good, different but good. So there's no question the manufacturers got their act together and put out excellent sounding electric pianos.

BUT........the point I've been trying to make is NOT do they sound authentic....they all do! But not one of them will ever give you what a pianist feels in the keyboard when he feels/hears the hammer hitting the strings. And those digital keyboards are somewhat difficult to adjust to by touch.



Now you're talking. I've played on quite a few Steinway's and loved almost every one of them. Someone else mentioned a Fazioli, but I haven't been able to find one anywhere. They said it was probably better than a Steinway even. The acoustic Yamaha grands......lovely. I play one at this one location, and I can do a 90 minute set without ever making a mistake. That's how good the keyboard touch is on those. Not as silky smooth as a Steinway keyboard, but better than most.

Sometimes I regret taking up the piano. Most people think if you can work a piano, than an arranger should be a piece of cake. It's not. You have to re-learn how to lay down your left hand every time you switch back and forth.

Hi Rikki....sorry for the delay in getting back to you (and your tantalizing offer).

No I probably don't have ALL of what you have, but I probably have so many by now, I can even give YOU some, I'll bet. But I've only got up to about a year ago (when I stopped collecting them).

No, I didn't buy any of Jurgen's styles but every one of them is a killer. I mean, that man really knows how to build a practical, usable style. I can't read German either (but I do eat German food)......I think he does make both versions...the PA3x and the equivalent Musikant. I don't know what he's doing with the 4x?



Yes.....we (and Deane) seem to like the traditional sounds of yesterday. The ones that are pleasing to the ear.

I still can't find a cha cha I like (or the others-Rhumba, Bolero, simple waltz, Paso Doble, etc, but I haven't gone through my styles yet.....trying to find the time. This is the cha-cha sound I'm looking for.....best I've ever heard anywhere:




You're right on that one Rikki. One of my favorite pianos....the Yamaha grands and baby grands. I'll never have one....but I can dream!

Mark

Mark, did you try the Kawai MP11 or VPC1, the Roland LX17? These come actually very close to the real thing

Anyway, if you want a digital piano that feels exactly like a real piano... try the Yamaha Avantgrande, they have a grandpiano mechanic up to the hammers and all build in... Same goes for the Casio Celviano... these are the real thing... you even feel the hammers hitting the strings...

I spent the evening watching PA3x and PA4x videos.......STYLES only. I would say that the PA4x IS a big improvement!!!

[size:17pt][/size]

Bachus......thanks for all this info about pianos. What I'm going to do, when I'm ready, is buy one of these Privia's. The cost is right, not too heavy, very portable, good sound. I probably like playing the Yamaha (portable piano) better, but it's very heavy to carry around.

The ultimate dream is to get a Yamaha baby grand, but......that would definitely be difficult to gig with.

Mark

Thanks for the demo links Mark, pa4x certainly do sound better.

You're right on that one Rikki. One of my favorite pianos....the Yamaha grands and baby grands. I'll never have one....but I can dream!

Mark [/quote]

I luved my baby grand, but my disklavier was my favourite.

I only had an upright model, first series they brought out in the late 80's.
The technology was amazing. No doubt improved since. The ultimate pianola.

https://youtu.be/xbDWn4r35Fk