Spent some time looking on YouTube at stage piano videos...Nord Stage 3, Montage, Casio etc. Being a guitar player, performing with an arranger, and wishing I could learn more about piano, I just love watching these artists play 88 keys. Many build orchestral, rich sounds.

I even sent my cousin, who entertains with a Casio 88 key piano 5 times a week, a video of the new Nord Stage 3.

But as much as I could appreciate the talent it takes to play these digital pianos, I realized again these pianos could not do what an arranger does.

My cousin(digital piano) hauls a drum machine and a harmonizer with him. His piano can't do, voice wise, anywhere close to what my PA 4X can do. He often needs a bass and guitar player as well.

Thing is, when entertaining, it seems that the arranger can do everything and more that the latest and greatest stage piano can do.

Thoughts?

The simplest answer is yes,... of course ...
BUT, doesn't it depend on the venue, what the audience is looking for, what type of music is desired, and other factors? ... If a venue - and its audience - is only looking for solo piano music, whether it be 'cocktail' music, semi-classical or classical, or jazz, then an arranger might be over kill ... For a good number of us, however, the need is to supply more than solo piano music without the additional cost of other musicians, so the arranger kb is ideal ...
JMHO

Of course it depends on the situation. An Arranger can do much more but in the right scenario there's nothing like a good sounding piano whether it be Digital or Acoustic. And to the listeners its more "real" Something they're used to hearing.
Just today I spent some time on my FP90 and was thinking about really trying to go just piano and voice. No dance music, just connecting with the crowd on a more basic level.
Hard to explain but some of my solo piano gigs have given me the most satisfaction.

With an arranger you can do both..

Bill, while you can satisfy yourself on the piano, the people that you really need to satisfy is the audience. I love playing a 12 string guitar and singing in a smoke-filled bar, but when I began playing the keyboard, the audiences loved me a lot more. I could do things that I could not do with just a single guitar and me, or a piano and me. The arranger keyboard provides you with the ability to fulfill the audience's needs. When they're happy, I was happy and performed better.

All the best,

Gary

I play for many of the same folks frequently. I’ll use guitar with backing tracks one time, and the next, use an arranger keyboard. I do the same material, along with vocals, either way. It’s interesting the comments received. It seems about balanced between those who prefer guitar or the arranger. I enjoy both. Sort of keeps you fresh with the material.

...BUT, one size does not fit all. If you remove nursing homes from the equation, I'm guessing that arrangers would only be acceptable in about 10-15% of other professional venues. For instance, I can't think of a single Jazz club where an arranger (used solo) would be acceptable. Same with a Rock club. Same with a Blues club. Same with a hardcore C/W club. Sure, solo piano probably wouldn't cut it in some of these venues either, but hardcore music fans DO put some value on authenticity, and frankly (as much as Arranger players have a hard time accepting it) most don't view arranger keyboards as 'authentic'. I think part of it is because they have a harder time judging your level of musicianship when a computer is generating the best parts of your performance. When you sit down at a solo piano gig, trust me, THEY KNOW.

Contrary to popular belief, I DON'T dislike Arranger keyboards (I have three), but I DO dislike false narratives and 'ALT facts'. Please don't trot out the old 'entertainer' vs 'musician' thing; I've heard it over and over again ad nauseum. As usual, Tony has it right with this quote "BUT, doesn't it depend on the venue, what the audience is looking for, what type of music is desired, and other factors? ... If a venue - and its audience - is only looking for solo piano music, whether it be 'cocktail' music, semi-classical or classical, or jazz, then an arranger might be over kill ..", at least until he got to the word 'over kill'. I would substitute 'inappropriate'. JMO, of course.

chas

There are NO Rules....just sayin'

Again it depends on the venue. Yes you can use an Arranger with very simple backing or full out. It can be very versatile but I still think a real Piano has a more immediate connection with people and again in the right situation.
Even Uncle Daves fake piano setup will connect better than a keyboard on a portable stand. Look at Elton John and many other using digital keyboards in piano cases. But unlike us they have roadies to s help,their stuff.

I attended a Harry Belefonte concert in Baltimore several years ago, one where there was a keyboard player with 4 arranger keyboards surrounding him. He played and Harry sang. The keyboard player was absolutely amazing. After about 4 songs, the other band members came on stage and performed while Harry sang. It was an incredible 2 hour show that I will never forget.

I've known lots of OMB entertainers that play an arranger keyboard in full mode, and the vast majority never thought about performing the NH circuit. They performed at casinos throughout Maryland, and southern New Jersey, 5-star restaurants in Baltimore's Inner Harbor and Little Italy, NYC, and just about every resort city you can think of. And, many of them also performed with various bands throughout the country.

I have a friend in Southeast Asia that puts on incredible shows with a trio of incredibly talented ladies. He plays an arranger keyboard, usually in full mode, while they play fiddle, guitar and drums. He is booked solid, performs throughout Southeast Asia and his 2-hour concerts are sold out well in advance.

There are several reasons that many arranger keyboard performers have transitioned to the NH circuit from the club scene, the primary reason being the pay rate. Anyone that has performed in their local nite clubs and restaurants knows that $200 for a 4 hour night is the top rate, at least at most locales. That works out to $50 an hour at best, while in my part of the world, the NH circuit pays $125 to $150 per hour, or $500 to $600 for a four hour job.

For the most part, I would be bored to tears if I were a patron in any club that had some one on stage that played just a jazz guitar for 4 hours and didn't sing. Same goes for a piano bar or high end restaurant. Lets be realistic, it's the venue that makes the difference, and (sorry Chas)THE ENTERTAINER! Without the entertainment value, no musician, no matter how talented he or she is, can hold an audience for very long. Liberace was one Hell of an entertainer, and an incredible musician.

Gary

For an all round entertainer... adding an arranger module to a stagepiano might make the perfect allround setup....

Nord Stage + Ketron SD40 is a perfect team for more comtemporary music and arrnager style vennues...

Where

Yamaha Montage + Ketron SD40 would be perfect for more modern vennues


Just take a wedding, you could play the stage piano at the ceremony and the dinner.... and then add the arranger for the celebration and dancing part later at the evening..


As long as there arent any 88 key high end arrangers, a combination of a stage piano and an arranger module makes the perfect setup for a one man entertainment band..




The more i think about it, the more i realize that i would be better off with a combination of a stage piano/88 key workstation and an arranger module, then with a 88 key arranger.. i think arranger modules would be something to keep in mind for all musicians... so not just pianists, organists and accordeonists...... but also guitarists amd vocalists..

But then i am moving away from gigging with a piano... what i want to say, its okay, and when you need some accompaniment, you could always use an arranger module... the ketron sd40 is extremely light..

I’ve posted this before -----

1-Their request ---- A Piano Player.
2-I asked for one night with my keyboard– they said yes.

3-My Kn7000 -- I programed all instruments to be piano. Even the bass was a piano. What they heard was a piano player with soft drums and soft piano bass with just a slight touch of 1 or 2 Acc. Parts – but they were also piano.

When they hired me for a party and heard what my keyboard could do they were presently surprised.

I do not have the skills of a piano player but I kept the job for six years. I do believe that Big Band has lost a greater part of its popularity; so has Sinatra and arranger keyboards. My music was called elevator music and Chuck Berry was called a great guitarist. Times are changing, but I still love what I do, and the music I play.

My opinion, John C.

PS, After six years I was replaced by a not-so-good piano player. It was all about appearance.

Part II

And then came piano players with bass pedals – followed by piano players with bass pedals and electric drums -- then came piano players background midi and Mp3.

I must admit, it has been fun.

John C.

There is one advanrage piano players have... its easier to switch from pianostyle to arrangre style playing...

I will attempt to combine both an acoustic piano and my arranger this Sunday for an Easter brunch at a hotel. They requested Great American Song Book Standards,Bossa Novas, and popular music from the last few decades. They also requested no drums, because they previous drummers were too loud. Also they wanted a trio (all instrumental), so I hired an amazing acoustic bass player, and vibraphonist. I'll keep my arranger on my left hand side, and run some light rhythm patterns and occasionally some guitar auto accompaniment. The bass player also plays great jazz guitar so I may play some LH bass too. I'm sure we'll go all "natural" too, with just the acoustic piano, bass and vibes. I'm looking forward to it, and hope it goes well!

My two thoughts.

1- My dad, a concerts pianist never played a keyboard well – partly because of the feel of the keys, and his state-of-mind. Keyboard players are a special breed, we like to think of whatever a lot.

2- The last time a played a county club they requested a trio. I added a bass player and a sax. I had to place the bass player next to my speaker because he was not use to playing with the exact tempo of our keyboards. I had the same problem when I used an electric drum and my guitar -- I felt it was taking away my control.

If you are going to lower the volume of the drums you may have a problem. The bass player is the heart of a band – when playing with a keyboard that changes.

John C.

Great points John. I have been considering some of the things you mentioned, and I am prepared to just play "all natural" if the volume is a problem or the we can't look in with the keyboard
rhythms. I've played with an arranger and live bass player before and worked great, but it was not a supper low volume situation.

A few years back I played a cocktail hour at a wedding and I explained to the customer I can use an arranger and explained basically how it would sound. The bride's mother said NO, we want strictly piano, so that's what I did. Fortunately the Crowne Plaza had a very well maintained grand piano.


I'd been trained as a pianist and always felt more comfortable at a piano, I found it easier to play more expressively on piano than an arranger. Based on posts here by a couple of guys who purchased the Roland Fp90 I got on this kick that maybe I'd enjoy one and it get me back to spending more time on pIano. No one has an FP90 to demo and I just don't want to buy one without playing one..........fast foward to this morning when I remembered I had a Casio Privia PX400R that has been in storage in a gig bag for the last 7 years. I set it up and gotta say for a $499 instrument ( purchased about 10 years ago) it's decent albeit the keys being a little noisy as Beakybird wrote in another post about pianos.

I'm not really sure what my point is but I don't think I'll buy an FP90, at least not today.

[
I'd been trained as a pianist and always felt more comfortable at a piano, I found it easier to play more expressively on piano than an arranger. Based on posts here by a couple of guys who purchased the Roland Fp90 I got on this kick that maybe I'd enjoy one and it get me back to spending more time on pIano. No one has an FP90 to demo and I just don't want to buy one without playing one..........fast foward to this morning when I remembered I had a Casio Privia PX400R that has been in storage in a gig bag for the last 7 years. I set it up and gotta say for a $499 instrument ( purchased about 10 years ago) it's decent albeit the keys being a little noisy as Beakybird wrote in another post about pianos.

I'm not really sure what my point is but I don't think I'll buy an FP90, at least not today.
-------------------------------
Stephen
At the music store I teach at I teach on an older model Casio. To the students its OK because none of them have a great instrument at home. Recently things got moved around and I now have ( for the time being ) a Roland FP30. The students who are mostly beginners noticed the improvment immediately. Maybe the owner is putting out bait to sell more. Now the FP30 is a big jump up from the older Casio but still far behind the FP90. The point is for getting back into things your older Casio may be OK for awhile, but if you ever make the jump to the FP90 you will appreciate the BIG difference in sounds and touch. I also bet , like me, you will spending more time at the Piano again. Lots of stores do offer a return option these days but I don't think you'll use it if you buy one.

Bill,


Thanks for weighing in on the FP90 vs. the others. I was hoping you'd comment on my post. I took a trip to Guitar Center this afternoon to see what they had in stock NO FP90 which I knew because I called ahead. They did have the Rd2000. Whoa!! That's some kind of piano and great action on it. For home use I have a Clavinova CVP307 and the action on that instrument is excellent but the RD2000 was even better. Do you know whether the FP90 has the same action as the RD2000? Somewhere along the line I thought it did. While there I played some of the other pianos they had on display none came even close to the Roland action or sound . I was disappointed in the action on the lower priced Yamahas but there's a huge difference in price of the RD2000 versus the others I played.

Yes, both the rd2000 and the fp90 have the same keybed... and pretty much the same sound engine... however there are more sounds on the rd2000, with more eddit options and more dsp and offcourse more live controlls...

The fp90 has the build in speaker tough, quite wonderfull sound comming from them..

Thanks Bachus that's good news having the same action and sound engine.

Many years ago, when I was playing rhythm guitar and singing with a 5-piece country band, there came a time when the drummer became seriously ill. He had a major heart attack and went into congestive heart failure. It ended his drum playing career and a few years later, it took his life. He was a great drummer, his timing was pretty strict and regimented, but not as strict as a drum machine or any other electronic device. The big thing he could do was adjust to subtle changes in tempo, especially when our lead guitar player began sliding out into left field. Our lead guitar player was all over the place when it came to tempo, mainly, I believe, because he rarely played in the band, just sat at home and picked out songs and sang, so tempo was never a critical thing to him. When we lost the drummer, and wasn't able to find another for the following week's jobs, I went to the local music store and purchased a Roland programmable drum machine. Back then, it was considered the best available, and it really sounded fantastic.

Well, the only person that seemed to be able to keep time with the machine was me. The lead guitar player never really paid any attention to the drum machine, or our drummer when he was there. The drummer would always adjust to suit the guitar player's tempo changes, but the drum machine didn't, thus causing a problem. I later noticed our fiddle player and the mandolin player, had the same problem. Since then, I've noticed that I wasn't the only person that encountered this. There are a lot of great players out there that cant keep time if you gave them a metronome - it's amazing.

All but the guitar player and myself have long since passed away, and last year I had to retire. The guitar player performs that NH circuit, playing and singing as a solo entertainer, performing only Marty Robbins songs. He does about 2 jobs a week most of the time. He still cannot keep time with the keyboard, and turned down my offer when I offered to give him the old drum machine. Said he just couldn't get the hang of using it.

All the best,

Gary

The 2000 is defiantly one of the top weighted keyboards for the preforming pro. Lots of editing, sounds,etc. Much more than I need or want . Keybed and Piano sounds are the same except the 2000 adds,the V Piano in the arsenal. More for a,band player who needs,to cover piano and synth parts.
For basic home use or giggling as a Pianist the FP90 is fantastic. Being able to use a mic with effects thru it and save as part do a registration are great.
Very happy and impressed with my purchase. Enough features and great sounds to cover the needs of a Piano Preforming Pro.

Actually the fp90 also has the v-piano engine.... its just marketed under a different name, fully modeled super natural... its the same thing... just less choices and less adit options... its marketing slang..

Just came across this review for the FP90. Very informative.

http://www.pianobuyer.com/current-issue/17-review-roland.html

I do piano and guitar only all the time, but it's a pre-meeting dinner, a picnic at a horse farm, a dinner before an annual meeting or a quite dining room.


Ya gotta choose the right place to work, and develop your regulars into people who will support what you do.


R.

I agree, you have to be in the right situation.
By coincidence I watched the "Fabulous Baker Boys" movie last night. I enjoy it but when the scene of NYE comes on and its just a piano and vocalist doing ballads I have to laugh. Never in the real world would that work.

Bill, Nice find, I see too that he has an 8 part series of You Tube videos that reviews the FP90

Bill, Thanks for your recommendation on the FP90, I purchased one from SZ member Frankieve at Audioworks. This is a very fine digital piano.

You mentioned the Piano Designer feature that's built in, it's a great feature. It's worth telling SZ about the FP90's built in program called "Piano Designer". It allows you to make subtle changes to the piano even moving the tuning from A=440 to A=442 and many other increments above and below A=440. It's a bit of a pain to make the changes at the piano, but I discovered there is a dedicated Roland app for the iPad/iPhone called "Piano Designer." I downloaded it then thru Bluetooth I got it synched with the FP90. Pretty amazing there are 30 presets and once you get the iPad and the piano talking to each other you simply tap on the preset and it loads it. There are even a couple of presets set up by famous piano technicians. The presets blew me away they really change the character and sound of the piano it's almost like you're in a piano showroom with a few different pianos to test drive.

Good luck Steve with your new toywow you starting your own keyboard store at home hahaha....use it well..

will you gig with the FP90 also

Thanks! I'll run out of room soon if I buy anything else When I first started playing gigs in '07 I was playing cocktail hours/small wedding ceremonies with just piano Once I got the arranger bug piano went on the back burner I'll start in again on doing a few more of those piano type gigs.