That statement is so so true Gary.....
and as the song says...........

Arranger keyboard is far from dying out.. I think what you will see is
arranger evolving into an hybrid workstation..
It already has advantages that a workstation keyboard user can only dream about.

Today's workstations are loop based as in pads to play pre recorded loops..

Everything takes more time to finish and have a useable product..

Very few "musicians" master loop recording, let alone sequencing...

Sequencing is an art that I believe less than 5 percent of musicians can get useable results..

You will always have commercial SMF's available..


Top models , even mid priced models of arranger keyboards can match any workstation in sound,
and I believe in features to make music.... Unfortunately most folks never learn to acheive this on either
keyboard..


Chas most musicians are clueless about arranger
keyboards...It isn't the fact they don't like the concept.. it is the fact they don't
undestand the concept , and know how to use it to their benefit..
I have seen this first hand, over and over again..

Going back 20-25 years.... belonging to "pro" Solo musician group.. Uncle Dave, Gary Murway and I

tried several times to illustrate the use and benefit of arranger keyboards.. We may as well
talked to the wall... I found the guys lazy and not interested in learning the "concept".

But they wonder why they don't get the goood jobs...

Uncle Dave and Gary Murway are two success stories as musicians that use technology.

I can't state enough the arranger is a musical tool, that can be used in many ways
as a stage instrument.. It will out shine a workstation in speed and funtions.

Studio wise it will out shine a workstation again..


The problem has always been awareness when it comes to arrangers...
Poorly or non trained sales people (that are brainwashed too..that the arranger is non professional).

Poor representation in Box stores...only a handfull mom /pop shops represent the lines.

AS for the future.... I think the best days are ahead for arranger keyboards.... we probably
won't call them arrangers, but some hybrid name..

Even today Roland has the capabilities to use audio loops designated to keys...
How far do you think they are to assignment of audio loops to arranger/style parts?

Workstations have been struggling for years using Pads for this concept..
Trouble is ..too much work for little results..

If you find a "musician" using a workstation live Solo.... you can bet they are using commercial SMF's

....but qualified players ARE!



My guess is they're also intimidated by an arranger keyboard because of it's complexity. If it looks complicated, sounds complicated, and feels complicated, then..........it must be COMPLICATED!

Chas said in another post something like "a song is good if it doesn't cause you to think!" Same with arranger keyboards. People are brain-dead nowadays....couldn't be told (and don't want to be told) how to boil an egg even.




I'll bet they're the same guys who I see in a mile long parade of vehicles at the drive-in window at McDonald's. Too darn lazy to exit their car and walk into the place where the counter is completely empty.





Fran, are you sure you don't want to re-think your last comment now? You just gave the strongest argument as to why arrangers will eventually fade into oblivion....probably along with workstations and TV remote controls and cars that do the driving for you.

The problem the arranger keyboard has with professionals, (And always has had) is that it developed from the easy play features of the home organ, (It’s nothing more than a sophisticated version of that) and easy play doesn’t go down well with pro musicians.
Ironically easy play is also one of the reasons for the demise of the home organ (Or organ in general, although we are getting a bit of a comeback) in that why would anyone pay a lot of money for a 2 manual and pedal organ, then have to learn to play it (including left hand, swell and bass pedals) when you can buy a cheap single manual instrument where you can just push a button and everything is done for you, (Hold a few chords and just play the melody) with no reason to learn left hand, bass pedals & swell.
Things have changed over the years, but you are still limited to what you can play live on an arranger, hence the reason users keep clamouring after new orchestrated styles, as it’s not possible to play your own backing, bass lines etc. on an arranger live. (Unless of course you do like a lot of arranger users are now doing by adding bass pedals and/or a 2nd manual so that they can start playing live again)
Whichever way it goes, the arranger keyboard will survive (Probably in a similar form it is today) just like organs have, (Although organs seem to be on the up with manufactures introducing new models) they will just be at a more subdued level.

Bill

The biggest problem, is the fact that there is no easy way to create song specific user styles.. altough Yamaha has probably user created styles for all amd everything..

Anyway... if you want a pro version of what arrangers do (styles) you should have a look at the latest feature of the SD9 pro....


A single track in a style is nothing different from a sequenced that gets transposed based on the notes played... actually it isnt all that different from the arpeggio's created in the motif or montage.. altough they still have some limitations like a limit of 16 different notes..

Montage people are allready using their Montage in a way we recognise as playing styles.. just a little different.. more basic.. with the popularity of the Motif/Montage range and its advanced arps.. i think its just another step away to step up to a system even more akin to styles... if they crossbreed ableton lives clip launching with Style tracks, everyone will love it... for what it is and nit recognise how close it comes to styles... again i point out to the Ketron SD9 luanchpads, as this is what they are trying to do...



Combine this with a feature that lets you be creative in creating your own stuff.. and you have the perfect tool for pro live use...very flexible, witouth the simplification and limitations of the 4 varriation arranger styles.. yet essencially the same as those styles..

I think i would becready for that step, however, most here wont, because they to much love the easy accesibility of the current style format... i really think SD9 is on the right track in improving styles...

An arranger keyboard was designed to do a certain job for certain types of music.

“I think what you will see is
arranger evolving into an hybrid workstation” (Fran)

I agree, but it will no longer be an arranger as we know it; they will probably give the hybrid a different name. The workstation is closer to what is needed for today’s music.

With all this talk I can’t wait until I get the Pa4x upgrade so I can add the new stuff into my songs.
John C.

It is inevitable that the two workstation/arranger come together in some fashion to satisfy both older and modern music in so many ways to create it and perform it, ....then I could see a $5000.00+ price tag as long as after purchase they give for free OS updates of some kind for all to use. The time has come for change lets all hope this new journey helps us all make fantastic music using a keyboard.

"The biggest problem, is the fact that there is no easy way to create song specific user styles"

Bachus, have you tried the midi-to-style converter after the update on the PA4X? If you have a good midi file, it's quick and easy to make a pretty good style. Yes, you usually need to do some "tweaking" after the conversion, but it's easy to do...adjust some style part volumes, maybe change to factory sounds from GM sounds...
I'm personally a little leery of using too many song-specific styles. I can nearly always find a style that will work, then play the intro and signature riffs myself. That way you stay true to the song, but still "make it your own".

If a New arranger comes out that allows the player to make their own styles very very easily it would be a big hit for sure and I mean very easily.....

I think it's about as easy as it's going to get, because, as you know, making styles is very complicated. I used to make a lot of them when they weren't so readily available, but I was doing drums, bass and a simple piano and/or guitar strum of some kind. It still took a lot of time to get it right. As I recall, the Technics arrangers had an excellent style creation feature. And I can remember converting some Roland styles to Technics, on board. Don't remember the details though.