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#435292 - 07/30/17 11:24 PM What's missing is a good drummer......
Mark79100 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 1661
Loc: USA
........in arranger keyboard playing. I already mentioned I go to a lot of outdoor concerts in the summertime. More than a few times now, I've been studying both the audience AND the band dynamics and kind of ignoring the entertainment itself.

So what did I notice? The most important member of the band is not the lead guitarist, or the agile keyboard player. It's the drummer. He's what gives life and meaning to a song. If he played like a drum machine on an arranger keyboard, the other band members would probably go home along with the audience.

I'm thinking about why arranger keyboards are not that popular here in the US. It's because they're not played using all the options you have available to you that makes a song sound exciting. In this case, I'm talking about the rhythm section. If I hear one more demo of someone playing an arranger and not changing rhythms constantly (in addition to using fills and the pads), I'm going to scream. Recreating a song is NOT playing a melody along with a set rhythm pattern that never changes. Borrrr-ing! The constant rhythm variations a drummer uses becomes part of the arrangement of the song. I really noticed that watching the Chicago tribute group.

I don't understand how people can call themselves a one-man-band when, in actuality, they're really a OMB minus a thinking, creative drummer.

BTW, the 2nd most important person is the bass player. Try listening to a song without one. That's why free bass is so important if you want to make a song sound authentic.

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#435294 - 07/31/17 12:36 AM Re: What's missing is a good drummer...... [Re: Mark79100]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5386
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Listen to quality drum VSTs (Or hardware) that have humanize features inbuilt (Round Robin is probably the most common) and you will be amazed at the difference it makes without having to change rhythm every 2 bars.
The next biggest improvement to an arranger (Some would say it’s the first) is to add a set of bass pedals and learn to play them yourself, as arranger bass really sucks in comparison. (It also shows the audience you are playing rather than just looking like a karaoke keyboard player)
Most of all, if you are a live player, then make sure you always enjoy yourself while playing, as otherwise the audience will just loose interest.
Bill
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#435298 - 07/31/17 02:33 AM Re: What's missing is a good drummer...... [Re: Mark79100]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Actually what you want in an arranger is Logic X's drummer app..



High quallity, with all possible features except seperate effects for each drum sound.. its incredible intuitive and an awesome tool to play around with.


I also like Korg Pa4x's drums... each drumkit has 8 sepperate regions of sounds... you can easilly edit the main settings of these parts.. and even add up to 4 insert effects to the main regions of a drumset... think of regions like bassdrum, hihats, clapps etc etc..


I also agree with Bill that technollogy like round robbin or small variations in timing are essential to make drums sound much much more vibrant and alive...


Edited by Bachus (07/31/17 02:37 AM)
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#435299 - 07/31/17 03:21 AM Re: What's missing is a good drummer...... [Re: Mark79100]
Tyrosman5 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/17
Posts: 96
Excellent article that tells it like it is. The drummer and the bass are the foundation of music. Lloyd

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#435300 - 07/31/17 04:09 AM Re: What's missing is a good drummer...... [Re: Bachus]
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4912
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
My thoughts about an arranger keyboard:

1-Find the right style
2-Set up the instruments needed for the style you are using.
3-Find or create pads that will add to the style; could be drums.
4-On the Pa4x I assign three buttons:
A-Cut all the Acc. except the Bass and Drums.
B-Cut the Bass.
C-Cut the drums

Now I am set up to play the song. It would be a good idea to listen to the original song – the band changes many times during the song allowing for instrument solos, vocals, or to create a grove. On the Kn7000 you could add all the above after recording song. I have not explored the Pa4x sequencer yet.

At the organ concerts I was always amazed at the button pushing that was going on. They spent 70% of the time on the song and 30% on changing whatever was needed to take away the boredom from their performance.

When I press button C – and begin to sing – (Voice, Drums Bass) Might add a cymbal on all four beats. Or a stronger bass drum. Adding finger snaps always picks up the feeling of a song. Cowbells do the same for Latin music. During the song I bring back the full band. The end of a song should be exciting – at times I end up with Vari 4 and the pads going.

Please don’t forget the “Break” button, and the fills. If you press Break or fill buttons two times they keep repeating to create a grove. Latin music is all about groves. Disco without groves would not sound very good.

Listen to the original recording and try to create it on the keyboard.

Bottom line: you can add another piece of equipment like a drum machine, and that’s O.K. – the best is to add what is in you.

The keyboards of today know what we need; what we need is imagination. Looking outside yourself is O.K. – looking inside yourself is to be creative.

All the above is just John’s opinion, nothing more.
John C.

PS, Try editing the drums; make them sound the way you feel they should sound. (it adds a great deal)

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#435301 - 07/31/17 04:32 AM Re: What's missing is a good drummer...... [Re: bruno123]
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4912
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
The drums sets the mood The bass is the heart

What is left is you – try not to destroy the song.

(Oh there goes my sick humor again) John C.

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#435328 - 07/31/17 10:10 AM Re: What's missing is a good drummer...... [Re: Mark79100]
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
I believe the pecking order of importance in any arrangement (live, or digital) will always be:
MELODY
BASS
DRUMS
CHORDS
EVERYTHING ELSE
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#435337 - 07/31/17 12:05 PM Re: What's missing is a good drummer...... [Re: Uncle Dave]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By Uncle Dave
I believe the pecking order of importance in any arrangement (live, or digital) will always be:
MELODY
BASS
DRUMS
CHORDS
EVERYTHING ELSE


Wouldnt you add vocals on top? Or do hey quallify under mellody?
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#435371 - 08/01/17 05:04 AM Re: What's missing is a good drummer...... [Re: Mark79100]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
What's missing is the ability of the performer to go into the editing capabilities of their instrument and tweak and edit or create a custom kit, "EACH Individual drum part" in the kit they are using to make it sound the way it needs to be using all the tools, timber, resonance, key, dynamics, amplitude, release, cutoff, decay, attack, volume, course tune, fine tune, EQ, if they know how to do that, it's easily done on Roland, Korg, units, but not so much on Yamaha arrangers...



drums


Edited by Dnj (08/01/17 05:08 AM)

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#435377 - 08/01/17 06:27 AM Re: What's missing is a good drummer...... [Re: Mark79100]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Of course, we need the ability to have the drummer get out of time so the keyboard really sounds live.

Gary
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#435386 - 08/01/17 08:51 AM Re: What's missing is a good drummer...... [Re: Dnj]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By Dnj
What's missing is the ability of the performer to go into the editing capabilities of their instrument and tweak and edit or create a custom kit, "EACH Individual drum part" in the kit they are using to make it sound the way it needs to be using all the tools, timber, resonance, key, dynamics, amplitude, release, cutoff, decay, attack, volume, course tune, fine tune, EQ, if they know how to do that, it's easily done on Roland, Korg, units

drums


The drum editing on pa4x is out of this world... one of my favorite parts... espescially with converted styles/drums from other brands, or midi files converted to styles.. this allows you to get the drums right in a few easy steps..

Originally Posted By travlin'easy
Of course, we need the ability to have the drummer get out of time so the keyboard really sounds live.

Gary


This can also be done with round robbin technollogy where you can not only have variations in the samples chosen, but also a slight chang in the timing.. this is on board on every major sequencer/daw where its used not only for drums but for every track that needs some living up... its one setting of randomising with a single parameter to make it smaller or larger.. o clue why both these features are not part of arrangers yet

Altough for round robbin, you could need like 20 samples, where you now only need 1, so that would require 20 times the current sample memmory.. but since its mostly a drum thing, we could use the feature only for drum sounds..

But your random variation in timing would only cost minimal processing power.. its a real shame its not yet on current arrangers.


These 2 features together could do more for an arrnagers drum sounds then any audio drum could ever do.. the drummer in the video from logic x supports both features under its cover..
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#435421 - 08/02/17 12:59 AM Re: What's missing is a good drummer...... [Re: Bachus]
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6483
Loc: Ventura CA USA
BeatBuddy a drum machine with a drunk setting


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#435473 - 08/02/17 03:25 PM Re: What's missing is a good drummer...... [Re: Bachus]
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
Originally Posted By Bachus
Originally Posted By Uncle Dave
I believe the pecking order of importance in any arrangement (live, or digital) will always be:
MELODY
BASS
DRUMS
CHORDS
EVERYTHING ELSE


Wouldnt you add vocals on top? Or do hey quallify under mellody?


Yes, of course - the vocals are most often the melody, but if the right soloist was in front, say David Sanborn - then that's the lead voice. As a singer, I'm always the leader of the pack. That's why I get the big bucks. smile
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#435474 - 08/02/17 03:30 PM Re: What's missing is a good drummer...... [Re: Mark79100]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
smile
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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