Hi everyone, my name is Aidan and I'm a pro keys player, mostly solo piano for weddings and corporates, but I also play in a number of bands, along with fairly frequent dep work.

Recently, on holiday, I came across a guy using a Technics arranger. The results were a bit cheesy, to be honest, nevertheless I had a bit of a 'lightbulb moment'. Many of the pubs/clubs on my local circuit are just no longer in a position to pay four/five-piece covers bands on a regular basis, and more and more frequently, they're putting on guitarist + singer duos.

I've done a few of these with a vocalist, playing just piano, but for obvious reasons guitarists have a bit of an advantage in being able to more easily 'propel' the more upbeat, dancy material that's largely required. So, my thoughts have been turning to an arranger, with the choice between the Tyros 5 and the Korg PA4X.

I'm aware of the forthcoming replacement from Yamaha but given where the T5 is currently discounted, I'm unlikely to be able to afford or justify the Genos, and in any case the timeline is probably against me – I want to start on this project soon.

Currently, my thoughts are favouring the Korg, for several reasons:

* Firstly, the physical size – I'm thinking that the PA4X, although a large-ish board, could easily sit on the top tier of a dual keys stand and replace the Kurzweil PC361 I currently use for function band necessities such as brass, strings, synths (I have my Yamaha CP4 piano on the bottom on these occasions). The Yamaha looks too bulky for this to be a practical proposition.

* Secondly, the styles available on the Korg seem slightly more tilted towards contemporary music, and rather more subtle than those on the Tyros.

* Thirdly, the Korg's physical appearance, and at least perceived build quality, seem to be more 'professional' – I appreciate this is maybe a bit shallow of me, but audience perception can be important.

For the Tyros:

* I already have a basic knowledge of its functionality, as at the church where I'm director of music, I regularly use a Clavinova CVP model. So the learning curve would be less steep, I think.

* Some of the sounds, particularly the ensemble voices, are pretty amazing. I also have a soft spot for Yamaha's Motif sounds, many of which I know come down from Tyros in the first place.

* There appears to be perhaps a larger 'community base' of users, add-ons etc.

I know that I need to get to play both these keyboards before making the ultimate decision on what is a hell of a lot of money in anyone's book, but I would appreciate hearing some of your own thoughts.

Oh yes, and I promised you a few questions:

* Those of you who gig with a Tyros (particularly if you have the 5-76 model), do you find it awkward to handle in and out of gigs? I'm not so much worried about the weight (16kg), as my CP4 is 17.5kg. However, from experience, I know that the physical size of an instrument can influence its portability as much as the dead weight, especially lifting it on and off the stand.

* Would I absolutely need a 76-key model? Overall, my feeling is that the answer to that is probably yes, bearing in mind that I am principally a pianist, but again, you may have your own thoughts on that.

* As far as price is concerned, the Korg 76 is right at the top of my budget (and straining it more than a little, if I'm honest). Looking around, I can probably get a T5-76 for around £300 less right now. Finally, part of me (and perhaps the more sensible part!) wonders whether it would be a wiser move to score a used T4 (about the £1,500 mark here in the UK), given the huge drop in value once you drive these babies off the forecourt, as it were.

Sorry for rambling on a bit on my first post! I look forward to getting to know you all.

I've got a Tyros 3 and the only thing that I don't like is the size. As a pianist at heart I remain very tempted by the T5-76 but that's even bigger and I'd find it difficult to transport.

I have wondered about switching to a PA4-76 as it is only slightly wider than my T3. The biggest impediment is my many years as a Yamaha person and the very significant effort it would take to transfer all my settings, files etc across and (probably more significant) me having to learn a new keytboard OS and layout.

I had a play with a PA4-76 a few months back, sounded fine to me.

As you don't have a huge Yamaha history I'd vote for the Korg if I was in your position and could raise the funds. Nothing wrong with a T4, mind.

I don't usually plug dealers but my local store (Hamilton's, Preston, Lancashire) sometimes has manufacturer refurbished models which may be more affordable although still way more than a T4.

John good move to KORG Pa4x 76, but I would suggest you start from the beginning setting up and utilize all that the KORG offers you first style & sound wise,....then filter in third party & converted styles to suit your needs, the transposition and learning curve isn't that difficult but in the end you will be VERY happy you made the change for so many reasons..

good luck.

I have to agree with DNJ and the Pa4X76. I have one and started to convert my Yamaha and other keyboard styles, as I was familiar with them and thought it would be easier to populate my Korg. First of all, something is lost in the translation, as it were, and secondly, familiarity can be boring. I bit the bullet and delved into the sounds and styles of the Pa4X, bringing new life to my old songs. Like he said, you can bring over any specialty styles afterward.

I'm on this bandwagon too, Korg Pa4x 76. I had a Tyros T5-76, great board but the size, not the weight of it put a damper on taking it to gigs. At the time I also had a Pa3x and that became my choice for taking to gigs. You can't go wrong with the Pa4x. If you were to purchase a T5-76 I would wait until Yamaha releases their newest arranger the prices of T5-76 used will be in abundant supply at good prices.

agoldstraw,

Just a thought, take it for what it's worth. You apparently don't sing and therefore wouldn't need the vocal harmony feature. You might be as well off going to a lesser model such as the Korg PA600 or Yamaha PSR S-770 especially since this would only be used on some jobs (if I read the situation correctly). You wouldn't have to break the bank this way and you would still have a decent keyboard to use to back up a vocalist.

As for your question in general:

Korg-the perception is a more "live" sound than Yamaha. Recently, the opinion of the pros here (I am a home player only) seems to have swung slightly in favor of the Korg. Yamaha has the most active user support forums (although the Korg has a good forum as well) and the most styles available. Korg songbook feature is usually preferred over the clunky Yamaha registrations. As you say, you'll have to test drive both to find out.

I'm a huge fan of PA4X for live play. So many more fantastic controls. Much has already been written here, so you may want to search for older threads.
Fortunately you can't really go wrong, particularly if the size of the Yamaha doesn't put you off.
If you sing, the Korg has MUCH better vocal harmonizer.

And even if you don't sing you still have to talk to the audience during a performance
and the KORG mic processor is top notch.
The sliders and large Tilt up display, songbook, and overall on deck navigation is great for live performance also..also want to mention the "side notched" grab handles perfect for setting up and packing up..

Thanks for the replies so far – I do in fact sing, and on several of the duo jobs I've done with a singer, I've used the CP4 split playing LH bass, with a Roland BK-7M (only using the rhythm element of any styles, as I find those VERY cheesy) and providing backing vox using a TC Helicon Voicelive. Together, it sounds quite good but it's a pain to bring all the different units and wire them up etc, and there are three different pieces of equipment to keep on top of. Something like the PA4X would replace the Roland and Voicelive, so I could raise a bit of extra cash by selling those too.

If you find the Roland styles "cheesy" I don't think you will be satisfied with the Korg either. Been lots of debate here on Roland vs Korg vs Yamaha but I've never heard cheesy styles as a reson not to like Roland.

Some of it could also be down to the quality of the voices, which by today's standards are pretty dated in the BK7-M.

I think he mentioned Technics cheesy styles, not Roland. But I have to disagree. Roland styles are nowhere near the sophistication of Korg styles. I find many styles for everything I can throw at the PA3X and I hear the 4X is even greater.

Big ditto Zuki

Well, where is Diki when you need him?

He's on the Roland forum!

why we have Fran Carango..

We'll see if Fran will jump in and defend the Roland styles. I can't really do that since I've never owned a Korg arranger.

Depends on how you define 'cheesy'. To me, 'cheesy' means you can tell that the music is coming from an Arranger. That doesn't mean it's completely bad, in fact, in most cases it's far superior to what that particular 'musician' could produce without 'assistance'. I truly believe that ALL the manufacturers deliberately make the styles generic enough that amateurs and home players will sound 'good' and yet make them (styles) functionally and structurally strong enough that they can easily be tweaked up to a level suitable for (and acceptable to) the 'pro' player.

SOOOO, are Roland styles 'cheesy'? In the context that I described above, YES; BUT SO ARE KORG, YAMAHA, KETRON, AND CASIO. Can they be made to sound UN-cheesy? Absolutely, as some recent demos have shown (including some by guys like Marco Parisi, et al). In the end, although the quality of a Style is important, it's the player that 'puts asses in the seats'. JMO.

chas

Very well said Chas. In addition to the ability of the player, styles can be edited to change the "cheesy" parts or manipulate it to the players liking.

Yea ya think?...

I think Chas made my original point better than I did. I don't believe the Roland styles are more "cheesy" than Korg or Yamaha. I had a S-750 and there were some good styles and some I didn't care for. Same with Roland-Korg I can't say.

I would like to hear Fran's opinion though.

Just make the styles your own.....edit them, rerrcord parts,swap parts,change sounds, efx,etc,make it exactly what you want after all it's an arranger!!!!....there are no bad styles but tbere are bad musicians...dont blame the styles....

Yes, that's what I'm working on doing.

Update: Today, I pulled the trigger on a very lightly used (home only) Tyros 4 and speaker system for £1,500. Picking her up Monday.

In the end, I decided I just couldn't justify spending twice the money on something which is only going to play a secondary role in my work pattern (at least for now). Having watched lots of Tyros 4 videos, I concluded that there was plenty of inspiration in the T4 to keep me busy for some time. It also means I can afford to keep the Kurzweil, which is a very capable and convenient board to have.

Once again, thanks for all your input. I'll tell you if I made the right call in a few days!

Hi Aidan: Before I forget, welcome to "The Zone's General Arranger Forum." Nice choice considering economics, quality of most Arranger Keyboards, etc. I think you will enjoy it. You can always switch to something else after learning the ropes on this excellent machine.

I am neither, a performer nor a musician. Songwriting is my source of entertainment these days and I use a Yamaha PSR-S910 to create demos of my catalog. (Some would laugh uncontrollably at that statement... but hey, you only get one chance!)

My best, free advice... is to pay attention to Don Mason in particular, plus all the other experienced performing Arranger Players who earn a pretty good living doing gigs at all manner of venues.

As an interested observer, I have noticed a fairly massive move in Korg's direction among many of the guys and gals here. Because economics plays such a big role in my retirement, it will take a warp-speed leap for me to change "boards" unless I discover something that will lend itself to enhance my desire to move my songs up the invisible ladder to success.

Here's hoping you have found a community of like-minded and always helpful folks and will eventually share your success and wisdom as we move along this interesting pathway.

Best regards, ----Dave Rice

Perhaps you cannot blame the styles themselves, but it is the technology, voices and programming of the brand that dictates the quality or realism of the style.

I have auditioned different brand arrangers in the past. Yamaha technology, vast resource style/multipad libraries, and best support system makes Yamaha my best choice for my arranging and live performance needs.

My last Ketron product I tried was the Audya. The audio style parts were really well done and authentic sounding, however the rest of the style parts and most of the regular voices were very GM2ish.

The present Korg PA2X, though almost catching up to the Tyros 5, the styles are thin, uninspiring, and with lack of resources towards arranging needs could become quite boring over time.

Yamaha in the other hand with present Sweet, Mega, SA, SA2, and audio drum parts within the style technology and great programming, plus huge resources, gives you limitless potential to your arranger needs.

The unique Yamaha programming that goes into their present styles is mostly interchangeable to be used in the Multipad parts or vice-versa. Korg or Ketron styles converted to Yamaha don't translate as well or can be as good as Yamaha styles because the style part "programming" (eg. Mega/SA) is missing. Just as Yamaha styles don't translate that well into other brand arrangers, because the Mega, SA, SA2 technology or programming is obviously not compatible.

My solution is to stick with the Yamaha brand, with the top quality voices, styles, multipads, and the large resources and support proven over the years. All my custom work must be compatible or up-gradable to the next model arranger. I wouldn't have the selection and creativity switching brands.

Aidan, the Tyros 4 is a nice board. surprised you didn't go for at least a used Tyros 5-76, for piano playing. Maybe if you like the Tyros 4 and how well it works as an arranger, maybe upgrade to a Tyros 5-76 in the near future. You will love the Organ World and Ensemble features, especially with added MIDI bass pedals.

If you assign your forth Ensemble voice to your MIDI bass pedal channel, you actually can create a five part independent voice ensemble. Truly remarkable for classical and church use. A lead solo instrument (with legato-4 Voice Incremental - from highest), 1st Violin, 2nd Violin, Cello, Bass Cello (with bass pedals), as an example custom ensemble voice. Ensemble is truly amazing, works with styles, and assignable to OTS positions. Many SA2 Ensemble lead voices to choose from.

The choir and vocal effects introduced on the Tyros 4 and carried over and improved on the Tyros 5 are second to none, including within the styles and multipads.

There is an inherent bias against the Yamaha brand in this forum, so not the greatest place for unbiased advice, but you have to try yourself what works for you.

Regards, Marcus

Good catch! Enjoy.

With all my Roland style bashing in this thread (comparing to Korg, that is) I have a new addition coming to my studio - VA76! Should be a lot of fun for a very skinny price.

Again, it was really a question of economics. Used 5s are still thin on the ground, and would have cost me probably about a grand more. Also, I would never want to play high-end piano parts on an unweighted action, so if I ever need more keys, chances are I'll break out the CP4 as well.

Of course, I could have waited until Genos arrives and a flood of used T5s hit the market but there's a lot of road yet between the announcement and more still before the flood on eBay. Actually, the guy who's sold me the T4 is doing so in order to buy a T5.

And thanks, Dave, for the welcome – nice to be here.

"Would I absolutely need a 76-key model? Overall, my feeling is that the answer to that is probably yes, bearing in mind that I am principally a pianist, but again, you may have your own thoughts on that." excerpt from original post.

So why would you suggest that a 76-key arranger model would be a priority, you are principally a pianist, and then state you would never play high-end piano parts on an unweighted action board?

As far as Yamaha bashing or (Roland bashing) here in this 'General Arranger Keyboard Forum', it is mainly because if you don't own the latest and newest arranger board, as most members here apparently jump back and forth to the latest board or suddenly jump up to a TOTL (Top of the Line)from a MOTL (Middle of the Line) arranger and are wowed by the newer novelties and presets presented, rather then learning how to get the most out of their original board.

Marcus

I'm a diehard MOTL man myself for economic reaons. Of course, Roland has no TOTL at the moment.

Congratulations on the Tyros4.
I still love mine. It is an amazing board and can keep up with the PA4X and T5 when tweaked correctly.
You can really get great results with the octave up and down button to ad 2 octaves to your keys.
You can even assign this function to foot pedals.
Have fun exploring. There is a lot of potential in that machine
Eric

Well, partially because I've been making a closer study of how most people are playing these things. But again, mostly economics. Yes, if there was a 76-key version of the T4, I would probably have gone for that. But there isn't. So given I'm not going to be playing Beethoven sonatas on an unweighted keyboard in any circumstances, I decided that I could live with the compromises, and changed my mind. Last time I checked, there was no law against it.