Since the arranger market has heated up with some incredible new boards...do you guys (professionals and amateurs alike) think that Yamaha has succeeded in creating a board that truly produces a “live sound”?

We’ve heard from a few owners that it has a “softer sound”.

With all the new demos...what are your thoughts?

jingleman (I’ll reserve my opinion for a day or so)

P.S. The sample I provided previously (Summer of ‘69) was as “live” as I could get with the PSR-S970

I have to admit when I first started hearing early demos of the Genos...I thought it sounded a little dull. The drums could have been brighter and hotter in the mix.

There is such a plethora of sounds in the instrument, along with exceptional articulations, it still sounds pretty amazing.

The one sound that stuck out as being a little out of character was the orchestral strings. They sounded almost shrill on the Kraft demo. Other demos have also shown them to be to bright and out of character.

Just my opinion, but wanted to get the ball rolling here!

Take it from a owner, the Genos sounds are fantastic and the drums are excellent. Go and demo one at a store to really hear the Genos. Lloyd

Thanks Lloyd: Would you say that it sounds more live than any keyboard you’ve played before?

Some owners have reported that the overall sound seems softer. (I’m paraphrasing here)

Jingleman,

Seems I answered this question in another post. I own both the Yamaha Genos and the Ketron SD7. The Genos is a vast improvement over the Tyros line of keyboard but in no way does it have a real live sound. It is still the same "Yamaha" sound we are all familiar with. That is not bad and the keyboard has a great sound. But, if you compare it to the Ketron SD7 for real live sounds it is like comparing little league to major league baseball.

Deane

Amen to what Deane said. I haven't heard the Genos in person, but there is no way it will sound as "live" as the Ketron.

Amen to what Deane said. I haven't heard the Genos in person, but there is no way it will sound as "live" as the Ketron, which has audio drums.

I tried the Genos twice last week, when I bought my PA4X. The drums sound a lot better and there is more overall clarity to the sound. However, the Korg still sounds more convincing overall, more 'present'. The Genos isn't helped by Yamaha's usual habit of smothering everything in a jumbo helping of reverb.

I also found the Kino Strings voices a big disappointment. They sound quite artificial and have a surprising lack of nuance by Yamaha's standards.

Thanks guys, I guess this begs the question, “Is it necessary for an arranger to sound live...or just sound good?”.

Deane: I remember your videos of the 3 keyboards. They all sounded good. So doesn’t it really boil down to the performers preference?

ABSOLUTELY ... to paraphrase, it is all in the EAR of the beholder ... that is why there are so many opinions about the sounds of any KB ...

Exactly, Tony. I rarely comment on this sort of topic because there is no 'one size fits all' when it comes to arrangers. We've all known that forever.

When I listen to well recorded demos I can definitely hear a difference between a TOTL
arranger and it’s MOTL counterpart.

It is a difference in the natural presence of the board. The high end is more open and airy, and the low end is more full and punchy. I can only attribute this to better quality DAC’s in the TOTL keyboard.

Agree in most of what said here, but Yamaha is "on the way" with something.
Revo drums sounds great at demoes, and it play with slight non repeatet differences that make it more human.
If they do similiar step with the bass, and manage to cut off some more of the "cold CD'ish soundpicture" stright out of the box, I really think they're shorten the live sound gap.
I think Genos are the best sounding arranger from Yamaha so far, at least in my ears.
But dynamic accomp is not any new invention, guess some of us still remember that Technics had this feature, and sadly dropped it again.

I don't reply much, but does anyone think Yamaha designed it so the sounds are not too alive, but for ones own sound design purpose...It has fantastic sound sampling. It's a creative workstation for all types of music...I don't think they wanted to copy korg and ketron in the out of box work arranger use. Yamaha has a great and loyal following for years with their signature Keyboards...This Workstation will expand into new territory covering so many more bases...But the prices for the top Yamaha arranger "workstation" is signature also! But what do I know. I'm a 69 year old want-a-be...Thanks Guys

Great points Harold, but as long at it is an Arrangerkeyboard containing huge amounts of autoaccompstyles, this is in my mind a machine designed to OMB, With some adjustments it will fit into Trio or Duo gigs as well. Specially when see that styles are very (already well known) song orientated. Then it should sound more "alive" out of the box.
Now we se that Yamaha has lifted both (or at least try to) Tyros 5 and Genos more into Workstation and Songwriter category, we might expect to see further migration in that direction in the future models.

Still, if anyone ask me, Genos is the best in category from Yamaha till now, also how it sounds .....
... but if only money talks, to me the best deal probably will be to keep T4 and add PA4X-76.:)

The Genos sounds really good in my humble opinion. The Revo Drums are excellent and as good or better than the drums in the Montage in my opinion. The Genos also has the best sounding pedal steel guitar I've ever heard on any keyboard period! Same goes for the new SA2 Flugelhorn! The new CFX grand piano is supposed to be the same sampled piano that's in the Montage from what I understand and it is definitely an improvement over the Tyros 5 concert grand piano I must say. I would say the Genos has a polished sound whilst the styles themselves have a somewhat live presence but not as much as the Korg Pa4x or Ketron arrangers. Korg and Ketron really know how to take that live sound to the next level and maybe one day Yamaha will finally catch up.

Yamaha put some serious effort into the design and features of the Genos and the results are mostly positive in my view. I really like the larger physical sliders that can be used as organ draw-bars and they have other functions as well. The new knobs and OLED display above the sliders are conveniently laid out and the knobs themselves have a somewhat similar capability to the super knob on the Montage from what I've observed anyway. Kudos to Yamaha for breaking new ground and for giving the Genos a few new and advanced features along with many excellent sounds and styles. But to be completely honest I think Yamaha dropped the ball in a few ways.

There are still no balanced outputs although the DAC's have been improved according to Yamaha. The polyphony is not allocated across the entire range of the keyboard either. The Genos still has 128 note polyphony for the preset voices and the only way to take advantage of the claimed 256 note polyphony is by utilizing the preset voice polyphony in conjunction with the expansion voice polyphony, which seems like a marketing ploy in order to sell more expansion voices?? Just a thought. In fact if you notice in the Genos manual the word "polyphony" is used several times but mainly cautioning users that note drop off will occur after exceeding the total amount of polyphony available. Yamaha could have prevented this oft repeated warning if they had simply allocated the 256 note polyphony across the entire range of the keyboard instead of dividing it up into two segments i.e. 128 note preset/128 note expansion voice(s). Oh well. Maybe the next generation of Genos will finally address this limitation. Don't hold your breath though, right?

The Montage now has seamless sound switching but oddly the Genos doesn't (a year and a half after the Montage was released) and that is a big letdown considering the Genos is mainly a live performance keyboard and it costs a couple grand more than the Montage 76 key version. Oh well... again.

Yamaha is also still using the now antiquated USB 2.0 interface which makes you wonder why the delay in using an up-to-date standard on this their new flagship arranger keyboard? USB 3.1 (Gen 2) has been out for a while with its up to 10Gbps transfer rate yet Yamaha seems quite content to use an obsolete standard i.e. up to (480Mbps) and it is very disappointing to say the least. Yamaha marketing looks at the big picture and not necessarily in the short term regarding policy decisions that primarily benefit consumers. So, in other words, if Yammie gave people what they really wanted, in other words, all the bells and whistles in one package, how then would they continue to sell ultra expensive keyboards to the next generation of consumers if the keyboard people currently own basically has everything they will need for years to come? We want all the bells and whistles but the Big Three and other keyboard manufacturers conveniently try to circumvent that in order to get people to do the upgrade dance needless to say. We are basically at the mercy of Yamaha (of course there are other arranger keyboard options such as Korg, Ketron and Roland) but it is quite apparent Yamaha remains at the top of the totem pole whilst consumers themselves are a few notches down in the grand scheme of things needless to say. And again that is a business decision made by Yamaha in order to help propel Yamaha's revenue growth potential into the future as stated in their latest company policy proclamation of 2017. Is Yamaha putting profits over the best interests of their customers? You be the judge.

Now to be fair the Genos is more than just a cosmetic upgrade in at least a few ways. But in other ways Yamaha dropped the ball from my point of view as I stated. And I think it's fair to point these things out even though devoted Yamaha loyalists might get upset. And boy do they get upset! On the other hand Yamaha was able to keep the price of the Genos within the same ballpark price of the Tyros 3/4/5 prices upon release which is commendable although in my opinion the price of the Tyros 3/4/5 and now Genos (when purchased new) are too expensive and thus not competitively priced if you ask me. In fact, (and this is from the horses mouth i.e. a Yamaha representative) the only reason Yamaha charges so much for the Tyros (later generations) and now the Genos is mainly because a whole lot of people are more than willing to fork over big bucks for that particular keyboard line. Yamaha is simply riding the wave of enthusiasm and subsequently it has been a big boost to their own bottom line in the process. You can't really blame Yamaha either. If people continue to shell out big bucks Yamaha will be more than happy to reap the rewards. They struck a gold mine with the Tyros and now its successor the Genos and that's a real testament to Yamaha's marketing genius. And also of many peoples willingness to shell out big bucks at the drop of a hat. Which is a personal decision and one I can certainly understand. If you like the Genos and it meets your specific needs and you have money to burn then Genos really is an excellent choice even with its few shortcomings.

On the other hand the Korg Pa4x is a lot less expensive and it sounds almost as good as the Genos and a lot of people would say it sounds just as good to them. In fact the B3 organs on the Pa4x sound better than those on the Genos for example. At least the ones I've heard so far anyway. On the other hand the traditional church organs on the Genos sound marvelous. I guess it's a matter of what meets your particular needs. I probably would have purchased a Genos if the 256 note polyphony was allocated across the entire range of the keyboard and if they had given it at least a USB 3.0 interface. Having said that Yamaha has a real winner on its hands and they will probably sell a boat load of them to boot. It really is a fantastic sounding keyboard and that is its main selling point in my opinion. Is it worth $5,499 + tax = roughly $6,000? To a lot of people the answer to that question will be a resounding yes. To others... not so fast. But if Yamaha sells a boat load of them, suffice it to say, Yamaha will likely continue to sell them at that high price tag and even higher down the road no doubt too.

Yamaha is actually trying to market the Genos to a younger generation although the younger generation will be hard pressed to afford such an elaborate machine at the given price point. So that means most people who end up buying the Genos will be the proverbial older generation with deep pockets. Guitar Center does have a 3 year "no interest" deal going on right now which could spark some interest from the younger crowd. Either way Yamaha still makes out like hogan's goat and you simply have to hand it to them. They found a gold mine and they continue to reap the rewards and that in itself makes Yamaha a real power player in the music arena.

The PSR-S770/S970 successor(s) are probably not too far off and they will be a much more affordable option for a whole lot of people. Kudos to Yamaha for providing mid-range alternatives which also sound very good. But if you're a professional singer/songwriter the Genos really is the way to go. Hopefully Genos 2 will solve the polyphony anomaly and will also provide faster data transfer rates between the keyboard and a computer e.g. USB 3.1 (Gen 2 would be a bonus) plus balanced outputs would also be nice. Hey, and how about VH"3" or a TC Helicon integrated solution for the vocal harmony on the Genos 2? One of the big reasons to get a Korg Pa4x instead of the Genos is because the vocal harmony on the Pa4x runs circles around the vocal harmony found on the Tyros 5 and now the Genos I suspect also since there has been no mention of a Vocal Harmony upgrade on the Genos as we speak. The Pa4x is also priced $1,500 less than the Genos too. Decisions decisions. Oh, and the Pa4x has micro-editing capability whereas the Genos is more limited, by comparison, of what you can actually edit and change regarding the voices and drum kits, etc.. Plus the Pa4x has a real sampler on-board which is another reason to seriously consider the Pa4x over the Genos too in my opinion. Sorry for rambling on but my main point I guess is if you can afford it and if it meets your needs the Genos really does offer a whole lot but suffice it to say you're paying an arm and a leg for the privilege of owning one. Easy come easy go, right?

All the best,

Mike

PS: I took a Tyros 5 style and made a little jingle out of it. All the sounds you hear are from my Tyros 3. It gives you a little insight into the sound quality of the Tyros 3 which still holds its own in my humble opinion. I added the file to the file manager so hopefully it posts okay. Have a great weekend!

Right out of the box, no keyboard I have owned in the past, and I have a lot of them, sounded live - they all needed tuning to get remotely close to that live sound I remembered when I played in a 5 piece country band.

That said, all of the TOTL boards can be tuned to sound fantastic. And, after more years of performing in front of a lot of diversified audiences, I seriously doubt that it makes a tinker's damned to the audiences whether you are performing with a PA4X, Genos, Tyros5, PSR-s970, PSRS950, etc..., as long as you are a good entertainer and know the intricacies of your keyboard like the back of your hand.

Now, I AM NOT a good musician, but over the years, I have been known as a good entertainer. I can sing with the best of them, and keep a crowd on the dance floor, which was my goal in the music industry, plus make enough money to support my family and my bad habits, of which my wife says I have many. Don Mason, though early on he denied it, is a good singer, so are UD and DNJ. Without those vocals, being an entertainer, with ANY instrument, is quite difficult. Deane Peters and Captain Russ are the exceptions, at least the ones that I know, to this rule. They are excellent musicians and know how to put on a show without vocals, though, the Captain is actually a pretty good singer.

Bottom line - it's the player and the entertainer that really makes the difference - not the keyboard.

Good luck on what ever keyboard you decide upon, but from what I have heard, the Genos is a top contender in the hands of a capable individual.

All the best,

Gary

Mike: thanks for your experienced evaluation of the Genos, along with Yamaha’s Tyros/Genos marketing approach.

My guess is users would be far less critical of Genos if it were priced competitively with the Pa4x.

You brought out some interesting points.

Gary, Your voice of reason always is appreciated. When considering a keyboard purchase, a little voice in my head reminds me of your wisdomatic statement...”will this purchase make me anymore money”.

With that in mind...I’ll probably stay put for the time being. At least until tomorrow 🤑

...”will this purchase make me anymore money”


Well,
not everybody play for income anymore, some of us just buy for personal frustration, joy and happiness....
Weekend gigs is swapped for recreation and family affairs down the highway to what's left of our life.
If equipment we buy sounds heavenly right out of the box, it's just a big bonus.

Thanks everyone for your personal response. You all have so much experience and wisdom to add...As I mentioned years ago, we have so many excellent keyboard choices! Like I said I'm a 69 old want-a-be,but I'm happy I can still learn and Improve...Off soon to a local coffee House Jam about a 1000 ft from my home. Just to enjoy all levels of skill. Of course I'm just going to Listen and have fun...Maybe some coffee too!

Yeah jingleman, they'd be flying out the door for sure if Yammie reduced the price to be competitive with the Pa4x. Korg really does have the advantage in more ways than one. The TC Helicon vocal harmonizer on the Pa4x is another example of why people might choose Korg instead of the Genos.

All the best,

Mike

I suppose Yamaha might be a little embarrassed if the Genos were cheaper than a Tyros 5

They both sound fantastic. It's like Cadillac vs Lincoln, or chocolate vs vanilla ... they both have their loyal buyers. Taking sound (subjective term) out of the equation, here's just looking at a few practical sales incentives:
1) Price - Korg wins
2) Size - Korg wins
3) Vocal Processor - Korg, hands down

So, as history has shown us, People will buy what they like. There's an A** for every seat, and I'm sure the Genos will be a success. I just think you'll see more Korgs on stages. Just my thoughts.

1) Styles - Yamaha wins
2) instrument voices - Yamaha Wins
3) Vocal processor - it's a tossup and depends more upon the singer than anything else

This could go on all night, but not for me, need to refill my Honey Bourbon.

Gary

1 & 2 - too subjective. That's why I left them out.
3 - not even close .... and I'm sober.

Dave, you know as well as I do that you would sound great singing through any arranger's vocal processor.

All the best,

Gary

You old snake charmer, you!

You got a point there jingleman. I realize Yamaha is in business to make money and it's a case of supply and demand. The Genos sounds fantastic but Yamaha is able to charge so much because a lot of people are willing to fork over big bucks at the drop of a hat. Which is fine and dandy if it meets their needs.

Yamaha would have to have a big change of heart to drop the price substantially and I don't see that happening any time soon because Yamaha will probably sell a boat load of them which gives them more of an incentive to keep charging an arm and a leg for the new Genos line just like they did for later versions of the Tyros line. Yamaha is already working on Genos 2 as we speak but we'll probably have to wait 3 or 4 more years before they hit the stores. At that time Yamaha may have "seen the light" and decide to substantially reduce the price of Genos 2 but again that's a BIG if and the more likely scenario will be they'll probably further increase the price especially if the current Genos sells like hotcakes which it very well may do.

All the best,

Mike

Mike, we’ve discussed this point many times on this forum.Yamaha is probably the best (worst) case proving the point that manufacturing costs have no bearing on pricing. They know they have a market that will pay their high price for the Genos. My issue with it is they had an opportunity to level the playing field with the advent of new technology, a new name (Genos), a way to bring this technology to a younger audience, but they went with the same old high priced marketing approach.

Will they sell a boat load (a little pun for Gary😏), probably. But for those who want to tap into this technology without paying the Genos price, they’ll have to wait for the PSR-970 replacement.

I disagree on that..

A) the s970 allready has the same hardware inside as the Genos
B) the live knobs on the 970 have the same function as the live controlls on th Genos

Other high end features like the sa2 sounds, ensemble voices, huge dsp section, 76 keys, and possibly the new revo dums will not fimd their way into the psr series...

The psr s series have allways been an upgrade from their previous versions which stands sepperately from the Genos...

So Bachus...your saying that none of the new technology developed for the Genos will find its way into the PSR series arrangers?

Maybe you’ve got an insider at Yamaha...if not, I find that hard to believe.

I remember when I had a Tyros 1. Stopped into a local music store and saw the PSR 3000.
I felt pizzed off that this board sounded exactly the same as my T-1.

I agree that Yamaha won’t make a baby Genos like they basically did with T-1. But they’ll have to improve psr series somehow. Korg does a pretty good job of it with 4X and 1000.

I sincerely believe the new technology will find its way into the upcoming PSR-S series of arranger keyboards - it's just a matter of time and patience.

All the best,

Gary

Actually, i am saying quite a lot of the new features of the Genos are allready in the psr s970...

Also i am saying other things will probably never come, or take at least a decade...

Like the sa2 voices, they are over a decade old, yet never made it to he psr s series...

Bachus: Other than the VH2 with vocoder and the arpeggiator...please enlighten me. There has to be $3500 worth of differences somewhere.

I know your knowledgeable of gear...so I’m not being condescending.

Why would they make another PSR-series keyboard? The PSR series existed because it was a "little brother" to the Tyros. Now that the Tyros no longer exists, why would they make it? They will probably make a "little brother" for the Genos. Make sense?

According to Bachus (again...not being condescending) the PSR-S970 is the Genos little brother. And since the 2 products are not related...the PSR series could continue to be developed and marketed on it’s own platform.

Since the PSR series has been so successful for Yamaha...whether they change the name or not, there will always be a PSR type product line from Yamaha. (IMHO)

PSRs were around long before Tyros came out.

Fact is PortaSound goes back to 1980.. And the Tyros was the aftermath of a PortaSound history..

PortaSound will outlast any top line Yamaha makes including Genos..

Yamaha makes more money in sales on the lower lines.

There were many PortaSound models that were in fact Yamaha's top of the line... and not just the 9000 Pro..

That makes sense! Thanks. Maybe Bachus thinks the Psr-S970 is the Genos little brother, because of it's new, advanced chip it shares with the Genos and the Montage.

Yes, but they always had many of the sounds and styles of their bigger brothers.

Yamaha knows they have a winner on their hands. Sales have been brisk in Europe from what I've observed anyway. There's only a few that's been delivered to the USA as of today. I expect we'll see some more in the stores at least by Christmas. I actually know of a place where I could buy one today and receive it by Monday or Tuesday if I really wanted one. But because of its shortcomings i.e. lack of USB 3.0, unacceptable Vocal Harmony, polyphony not allocated across the entire range of the keyboard, etc., etc., I have to pass unfortunately. I'm beginning to think Yamaha does it just to spite me. LOL

If the PSR s970 replacement has a better keybed I might consider one of those but I'll probably just wait until Genos 2 and hope for the best. I have to say though that the Genos is Yamaha's best arranger keyboard ever. In fact I wouldn't mind paying a little more for the Genos 2 if Yamaha rectifies the situation regarding the polyphony and other anomalies.

All the best,

Mike