To me the Genos is the almost pefect arranger..

But yamaha is promoting the Genos as a workstation..
And thats where it does not convince..
Worse even, its not a workstation at all in the traditional sence..

Based on this feeling i maintained a post on psr tutorial forums
With criticisme on the Genos, and advice for improvements
Knowing that Yamaha reads those forums..
After posting in that topic to answer someone’s question today
(After being almost inactive in the last 2 weeks)
I got banned again.. and the criticla topic got removed..
Now i dont really care about the 3 months bann
But i do care about my opinion(and many others opinions which contributed to the topic)

Luckilly i made a copy of it..
That i will gladly share here..
Because here on synthzone everyone is allowed to say what he thinks
Which is a very very important good in the free western world

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This is not about the Genos being a bad instrument
This is about making the Genos a better experience for all (possible) owners..
Trough software improvements and adding new features and content..

I posted quite some tidbits about possible improvements..
Butt somehow the posts got lost, no hard feelings, so this post will start with a small recap

Its not about issues that cant be improved by software like :
- the capacitive tochscreen
- missing hardware buttons
- the knobs not being encoders, but static potentiometers
- not having a half damper pedal
- not having a 61/88/module version

Its about things that can be improved... in the current instrument...

- No DAW integration (which is required to make Yamaha an integral part of the studio, Audio over USb and Montage connect should have been part of the instrument) which would be a requirement to make the Montage the perfect scratchboard for composers which Yamaha claims it to be..

- The arps section with only 216 arps, and only assignable to R1, makes it a toy, its exactly the same toy they put in the PSR-E series. No user ARPS. No edditing of ARP's. To make the tool usefull and pull in the younger players, there should have been 4 arps, with access to Style, pannel and Multipad voices. And preloaded with Btween 1500 and 2000 arps and atleast a 1000 locations for user arps. Its Yamaha's most expensive instrument, they should atleast make this feature a pro feature and not a toy.

- Sound edditing and sound creation, should have been onboard. Also for midi edditing there should have been a piano roll editor (the screen is big enough).. maybe they will add this trough an ipad app.. Yamaha advertisies the Genos as a tool for producers and composers to get away from the PC and being creative. Not being able to edit sounds on this level will leave the newcommers in the dust. Its important that you can edit sounds real me in the Genos and save them directly to memmory or USB. Now i can live with an ipad tool that does this if it takes to much effort to program, but the tool should also available on windows and android. The problem with the current Yem is that its offline, and it is not possiblemto save a single newly created sound.
The same goes for advanced midi edditing, you want to be able to directly edit the midi of styles, somgs and multipads inside the Genos, and then save them in the Genos. The current midi edditing tool is not graphical, adding a graphical piano roll tool is a huge improvement for edditing inside the Genos, it takes away the strainnof moving files trough usb stick to a pc, you can just directly edit with the onboard sounds and effects. Same as with the sound edditing, its not a problem if this requires an ipad tool, or any other type of tablet

- No insert DSP for multipads, unbelievable, with adding a few hundred sets of multipads, and with the live controlls making the multipads just as important as the 8 style tracks, why dont they have insert dsp effects?

- No audio syncing with Midi, even tough most of the required software algorythms are allready in the Genos. Having 4 audio multipads sync with the beat of a style would be a great asset for toying with audio drum loops. As wel as syncing an audio file with style and multipads..

- No syncing start of Song and style, just make it possible to automaticall start a style when starting a song, or to sync the audio song wav or mp3 with the bpm of the Genos.

- No real onboard synth engine, which would have suited the EDM part really well. Its quite well possible to make a layer of a synth on the screen much like the organ flutes based on The AWM2 synth engine. Which you can edit in real time with the live comtrolls

- parameter assign, yamaha should make it possible to assign any parameter to the knobs, sliders, pedals, assignable buttons, joystick .. not just internal parameters, but also external midi cc

- There is a very cool Retrigger option that allows you to do EDM buildups by retriggering the beat in 1 / 2 /4 /8/16/32, but for some reason when you exit the buildup (by hitting BREAK fill as a typical DROP), it doesn't exit on Beat 1 of the measure, but on Beat 2, so your build up just lands nowhere. Apparantly this is also the case on the PSR 970. Very strange and very sad that such a great feature is so useless.

- There is a foot switch option for "Half Fill" which means if you have a 2/4 in the middle of a 4/4, you can trigger a half fill and move seamlessly (instead of estimating it inaccurately and and unsmoothly using "Sync Stop"). But it doesn't work. The foot switch when pressed simply does nothing. Another great idea that would be so amazing if it worked. Alas it does not. please repair this bug.

- On the Tyros series you were able to program your style buttons to open USER STYLE folders. We no longer have that option since those style buttons have been removed. But worse, you don't even get a USER style menu on the Left side (like for the presets), instead every time you want to pick a style you will have to navigate through your folders. So whereas on the Tyros picking a style was a 2 step process (choose the folder, hit the style), it is now a 4 step process (1)Hit the style gateway/or select it from the screen (2) select USER (3) Select the folder library (eg: EuroDance, Turkish, or whatever you have), (4) select the style. And it could be more if the style is on page 2. Please make an option to get faster to the user styles, songs and sounds.

- You can only save PRESET voices and styles into the favorites folder. So the Favorites tab does not solve the last problem in any way. make it possible to add user voices styles and songs to the favorites tabs.

- Live Control: The knobs can be used to add filters to the entire style or to any of the L,1,2,3 voices. It cannot however be used to add a filter to a SINGLE (or multiple) parts within a style. So if you wanted to use the Live Control to create a sweeping effect on your pad within the style, that cannot be done. Live control also does not affect Multipads. Please adapt the live controll so the knobs can be used on any track and not just on the main voices.

- support for Rex files, to improve audio syncing and allow users to bring their own created content

- a CASM editor for all 16 parts, so we can edit this part of the style inside our keyboard. This is a feature that potetially could be used from an ipad editor. As long as you can edit the style inside the keyboard and are not forced to export it to a 3rd party tool on a pc..

- artifacts apear in seveal video’s when sounds are switched during playing. Its an old bug from the tyros range. Which probably can only be solved by SSS for the 4 panel voices.

- Make a version of Yem that allows people to edit the onboard sounds and save them as a user preset. Add an option to upload single sounds and multisample sets to the Genos. Add new features to the Yem that allow people to edit and create SA1 sounds.. and an option to edit sa2 sounds.


I will administer this post and add other people’s new points to the list on a daily basis. With the real thing ariving in living rooms and stages right now, this seems the right moment to open up a main topic like this..


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I am sorry for the wall of text,
But it just had to be shared here..

The Genos sounds great..
And is a huge improvement over the Tyros 5
But it is far far from being a perfect workstation

Its the best traditional arranger ever made...
Lets just keep it at that..
But still has huge shortcommings when compared to a workstation
And even misses many many things i love on the pa4x.

Bachus: what’s up with the software update they released. Supposedly multitrack audio recording was added. This along with the multiple outputs would bring it closer to titling it as a workstation.

I think Genos is the best arranger in Yamaha series till now, no doubt. (Personal view and only YT videos to judge by so far)
They are on the way to something new. To me it sounds both more balanced and dynamic, new Revo drums and how it is designed/looks is also better in my eyes..
But perfect? Hope not, if perfect, there would not be any more to complain about or reasons to develope new ones.

But if you take a peek at Yamaha's website, They now even range Tyros 5 and PSR as Workstations.
Maybe "Workstation" is common for all "auto-play accomp" arrangers now?

Hello Bachus,

I haven't logged onto psrtutorial yet. What commotion have you created there now??? LOL Just kidding.....as I wrote to you before, the last time you were banned....... I enjoy your posts whether I agree with them or not. I can feel your music passion when you go all out on a topic. I think because the other place is a Yamaha based forum some of the moderators just can't stand to see anything negative about a Yamaha.

I love my Genos. I love it more each time I turn it on. It's as close to perfect as I have seen yet. But there is always room for improvement. And it's opinions like yours that should help Yamaha as they design their next Genos.

Please keep posting here. I read every single post you submit. Don't know if you celebrate Thanksgiving but Happy Thanksgiving if you do. I'm sure we are thankful for Genos whether it is perfect or not............. -charley

GJ: I think you hit on it. Yamaha has re-branded the “arranger” as “workstation “.

Just because workstation was defined as something different in the past doesn’t mean it can’t pertain to today’s arrangers.

Besides, arranger has a somewhat negative connotation among “real” musicians. Maybe this will begin to give credibility to the current state and quality of “arrangers”

Lord knows the price dictates a higher quality instrument. Hey...now that Yamaha are referring to arrangers as workstations, maybe they’ll price them accordingly!

If it looks like an arranger, sounds like an arranger, plays like an arrange guess what?
it's an arranger!

A modern day workstation has the following features..

Full fledge midi sequencer and audio track recording.
16 part layer and split possibilities..
After touch..
separate outs..
Sampling..
Pads or key trigger audio..
Extensive sound editing..
Extensive effects editing and routing..
Ample memory and storage..
Audio and midi interface..
Mixing capable and mastering tools.


Now you can tell me if a Genos, or PA4x, or SD9 are workstations..

Actually the closest arranger keyboard to meet workstation benefits... may be the BK9..

Of the current models I would think Korg is closest to a workstation..

Well, this time its not as much about being banned.. on which i defiately disagree, but its more about posts and topics with lots of valluable imformation being removed..

Please tell me where my criticisme is unfair or not backed up by facts?

The opinion, is not meant for yamaha to improve the next Genos, but to improve the current Genos trough software upgrades the same way as they did with the Montage.

The arranger is on its way out (It will soon just be a niche market like the organ that the easy play arranger came from) and Yamaha know this, so they bring out a top notch arranger (So as to keep the current old fogies happy) and add workstation features to entice a younger audience, however, it is just a first step in what will take a number of years.

Everything evolves around apps these days (Hence Yamaha started adding them a few years ago) rather than inbuilt (Just look at modern TVs, they are flexible because they run 3rd party apps, not because of features inbuilt) so putting things out on apps that will work on the Genos (For those that want them) is the most logical thing to do. (Particularly if you are going after a younger market)

Bill

Good post Bill. I agree.

Thats exactly my point...

They didn't add any real workstation features
They just say they did..

- No deep edditing on board..
- A near useless live controll section, because you can not assign 95% of the parameters you would want to add
- just 216 different arps.. only 1 at a time.. and no room for user created ones. (The €300 mx synth has 2000 of them and room for saving user stuff
- the same old linear sequencer.. there is a reason the youth is using Fl studio and ableton live or korg gadget or whatever..

Can you tel me what workstation features did they add?
I can tell you... exactly none at all... that werent allready in T5

I think the future is a workstation (like the Kronos) , with added arranger features, ....and ipad and pc (daw/vst) integration of the highest level... integration by combining a system like NI komplete kontrol, with the audio over USB from the Montage..


I dont know if anyone knows the program V-console for Tyros 5...
Which shows some pc integration... if they would add VST support to it... and route the audio back tothe Genos/Tyros... that would be a huge step...

Or audiobus 3 on the ipad... create an app that runs on the ipad, sends and receives audio and midi. And suppports audiobus 3

If you want the youth... give them a workstation that integrates perfectly with all the things they are allready using...

And the same goes for composers... Yamaha tries to push the Genos as a perfect scratchboard for composers. But the only tool they get is an arranger and a build in sequencer... but no integration whatsover with their daw... there shouls be an easy way(like montage has) to send a project from the local sequencer.. to the DAW... like montage connect...


Its not fair pushing the montage as a workstation... and not giving the people the tools that are allready created and maintained by yamaha ... to use the Genos as a serious extension of their studio..


If you say A... you need to say B to...
And not like Yamaha typicaly does create a 10 year long road from A to B...

Hi Bachus

As usual a very well-written post. A shame - and an error - that it is not welcome at the other forum. We will only get smarter through discussions!

Best wishes
Jørgen

most of psr people are on here reading too

Many of them are..

But with some major exceptions
I guess most of them appreciate constructive criticisme
And realise that its the only way for consumers can make things happen.

For me its a fact, that i have to learn to live with

I also realise that PSR tutorial has a lot to offer
Trough people like you vissiting and helping others

Its not a bad community..
Its just that a substantial part of them just does not seem to understand me..
Or does not want to understand me and stay in their happy bubble..

Its their choice..
I have no feelings of hate towards anyone
Yet there indeed are some things i just don’t understand.

Bachus, are you banned at PSR again, and posts deleted?

Yes, reason, to many people complained about my posts being offensive..
That was given as the reason.

Personally, i disagree, critical yes, but offensive?


And then there is offcourse the personal grunch of some moderators against me.. sad but true...

Bachus,
I have never seen your posts as offensive, nor rude or offending against any members. Not at PSR, not here.
In fact, I find your post informative and well written, even if not agree in everything.

As I said in a new tread about your ban at PSR, "never seen rude comments, but views and thoughts about technical issues, wishes, cons and pros".
I think to many PSR members ( and moderators? ) don't cope with any critics or any negative comments against Yamaha.
No matter what, Yamaha is the best in the world, if say something else, hey, get out off here. Period.
If you praise Yamaha and also post a song, you're a gold painted member.
Maybe you just forgot to post a song?

People need to realize that it’s just a stupid keyboard. Bunch of wires and whole lot of plastic. It’s not nobody’s wife or a weird uncle or whatever in between. Also that long thing that goes through our back is called spine. A lot of people lost it, or never even had it . It’s ok to disagree , even to argue as long as we can do it in a nice and civil way.
Bachus you did nothing wrong.

All I can say is Stay Tuned many of the things you are looking for are coming !!!!!!

To Genos or to another instrument?

Bachus: you are incredibly gifted at understanding technology and finding short comings.
Where people might find your posts offensive are some of the editorial comments that cloud your observations.

Phrases like “makes it a toy”, “useless”, should of had this, should of had that, probably aren’t going to sit well with someone who just spent 5k for their dream machine.

No disrespect Bachus. Your obviously talented with gear. Hope you can find a balance.

also bachus talk is cheap on forums maybe you should post some live demo examples to show what your talking about,...this would back up your opinions and show it's not just mr know it all talk ( no offense) if you know what I mean,..I see this alot on different boards just a short video demo or pictures,.. is worth a thousands words.....

Really?

You are not serious about this?
Are you?

How else should i phrase that something fails in my opinion?

Someone that just spend 5k should enjoy what he has just bought. I might end up buying a Genos myself. You hould try and read my posts again, i allways ballance things, by praising the good and criticising the bad. Just try and find me a single post where i tell people that the Genos is bad? No, i just point out the good and the bad. And well yes if the good is incredible. The bad can be useless to me because of a design flaw.


I seriously don’t see anything wrong..

what i don’t undersand is people wanting to close their eyes to the reallity. Because many people seem to want to sit in their bubble. And don’t want to hear anything bad. Nothing my friend is perfect in this world. Not me. And not the Genos. And nothing ever will. And thats not a bad thing. But having a drive to improve things will in the end be what makes the world and yamaha instruments a better place. And if it requires colofull language to point things out. So be it. Its just my opinion, altough it might hurt people because often they are based on actuall facts.

How can i make a video of something that i don’t own?

No, i don’t do video’s..
I did do a drawing earlier this week..

But i will keep this in mind..
I dont have a video camera, but when possible a quick iphone video could definately help point out some things.

First off, this post was not meant to be about PSR tutorial, internal affairs.
But it is about the Genos.. and making it more workstationy... as thats what is written on the box.

I still don't know why i got banned.
Yes, people complained.

But i allways kept inside the rules



I don't see how and where i didn't stick to their forum rules.
I only know people complained about my posts.

I think the quoted post above was a sour thorn in someone's pelt.
And when i posted in it again after 2 weeks
And it came back on top, he might have exploded.

Personally i think all the fuzz has been about me maintaining this single post of "Constructive" criticism.



But enough is enough....
Lets talk about the Genos again...

I am mostly interested how it compares to the PA4x and the SD9 pro
My first hands on with Genos about 2 weeks ago, gave me the idea that it sounded much more live (in many of the styles where such is intended) then the Tyros5. Personally i ended up that in many styles they wanted the Genos much more like the Pa4x. While in other styles (clsassical, big band, movie etc etc) they improved what was allready brilliant in the T5

Sadly i will not be able to test it before christmass
Real live is to busy to travel to Music Store
But i will in the periode between Christmass and New Years eve.

There is quite a lot of features that would make each of these 3 instruments an interesting buy.. Genos with its ensemble features, Pa4x with all the workstation features, or SD9 with the latest innovation in styles(Launch pad)

Only a direct comparrisson tough, can decide on the sound quality preference question.

Dude, why do you keep ruffling feathers? Maybe that is why you keep getting banned. Just play your Pa4x and be done with it and don't bother with the Genos. You keep hemming and hawing about this and that regarding the Genos and comparing it to this and that. Either you fall in love with a keyboard or you don't. The proof is in writing a check to purchase it. Just move on and play what you have and make great music. There are 3 main keyboards with their own ecosystem; Korg, Yamaha, Ketron. Pick one and stick with it; like Donny does. ;-)

How perfect is the Genos?
About as perfect as the people who play them.

John C.

As a Genos player I can say the Genos is an excellent arrangerkeyboard .

Bachus ,

After reading your messages about the Genos from the moment
on which nobody has seen or heared it I think now that
you hate Yamaha Keyboards .
Maybe you hate all kinds of keyboards .

The only thing you try to do is keeping away musicians from
the Genos .

I think you are on every Arranger Forum the wrong man on
the wrong place .

So you make it personal?

And attack me..
I think that says more about you then about me



I have said more possitive things about the arranger part of the Genos then anyone else..
Yamaha hater? Really?
Did you specifically come to this forum to attack me?


Maybe you should accept the fact that other people have different opinions..
And are open minded towards several brands of arrangers, as they all have their strong and weak points... and the Genos is no exception to that.

Great I look forward to anything you offer in audio or iPhone video to demonstrate your point and so will many others too.....take care

If Yamaha ever womdered what a sound engine for Genos should look and feel like..
Check out this 3rd party editor for Montage..

http://keyszone.boards.net/thread/511/yamaha-montage-performance-editor-released

I don't know, Bachus. Most everyone I have read that has purchased a Genos seems to absolutely love what they are hearing. And, with no editing involved the Genos really sounds great. I guess it all boils down to what you intend to do with the keyboard - play music for your own enjoyment and entertain audiences from all walks of life, or spend your time creating and tweaking sounds using the keyboard and PC. For me, I just want to play music, though I have tweaked a few sounds over the years, but nothing major.

All the best,

Gary

Noboddy is asking about this feature on psr tutorial..
Thats because they probably all moved to other instruments that do allow so..

And guess what, this is exactly the group of people Yamaha would like to pull back into buying a Genos... and then they forget a feature like this..

Yamaha created the perfect instrument for the typical Tyros5 player... true... but they forget about other people that want the sound quallity and style quallity of the Genos, combined with more pro features... thats where my criticisme comes from.... and only because Yamaha itselves claims that Genos is the perfect tool for composers..

My point exactly. The Genos IMO, would be great for someone that performs on stage, or in the hands of a composer who does not wish to tweak and tune each and every sound - for them it would be perfect. Now, for those that wish to spend their time tweaking and tuning, I really don't think an arranger keyboard is their tool of choice, but instead software based synths may be the answer. But, that's just my opinion and a NON-tweaking and tuning person that has only successfully created a single song and posted it here on this forum.

Gary

Good point Gary. I remember in the old days with my emulator II and my Roland s-50, I’d spend hours sampling and tweaking sounds to create the perfect jingle.

By the time I was done tweaking...I was ready for bed!

Thats an assumption, thats not really true. Probably based on your own needs. There where dozens of people on the PSR tutorial forums looking for exactly this in an arranger.

Its Yamaha's aim to sell more Genos to different groups of musicians, and to do so they have to add the things the none typical arranger player likes.

Thast been the whole point of this discussion from the start,

I dare take it one step further. IF someone would add an arranger in the form of the Ketron launchpads to any Workstation, it would sell like nothing else before..

You press the foot switch and keep it pressed. Now you trigger a Fill with the Main Variations buttons and the fill will be played with only count 3 and 4 (thus a half bar).


Maarten