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#446000 - 02/06/18 08:28 AM
Re: Yamaha Montage at NAMM 2018
[Re: Gunnar Jonny]
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#446050 - 02/07/18 01:01 AM
Re: Yamaha Montage at NAMM 2018
[Re: Bachus]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5362
Loc: English Riviera, UK
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I think it is crazy that any brands separate workstations from arrangers. Supporting styles is simply an addition of a little more ROM space. There is no reason Yamaha couldn't introduce a Montage that is also an arranger. Then they could sell it to all markets. The first manufacturer that does that will win for sure. Yamaha has all the tools to make the perfect instrument. Yet as long as their are seperate development teams for the seperate instrument types, such will never happen. From my point of view... the Korg PA4x is allready a powerfull workstation and a top knotch arranger. Much more workstation then the Genos (or the Montage) So if a company will break with this tradition it will be Korg. Altough i wonder if Korg Italy realises this.. from a workstation point of view, i would say that something like the ketron launchpads would be welcomed much much more then the traditional arranger. From an arranger point of view, we are ready to accept all the high end workstation features. Most arranger players steer clear of Workstations like the plague, and can’t see the point of them, let alone have the features added to arrangers, (Didn’t you get thrown off the PSR Forum for suggesting this very thing) and it will take a long time to change this. (Yamaha has started with the Genos in a way that most arranger players haven’t noticed, but you’re talking at least 2 generations before they will be able to complete the transition to an all in one) Bill
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English Riviera: Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).
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#446072 - 02/07/18 07:47 AM
Re: Yamaha Montage at NAMM 2018
[Re: Dnj]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15569
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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but how many arranger players need or even ever use "in depth" synth workstation features, editing, etc, etc,..? why pay for all that if your never ever going to use those features or easily do it on your DAW programs? DITTO!
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#446099 - 02/07/18 04:47 PM
Re: Yamaha Montage at NAMM 2018
[Re: jingleman]
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
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Edited by Dnj (02/07/18 04:49 PM)
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#446100 - 02/07/18 04:51 PM
Re: Yamaha Montage at NAMM 2018
[Re: Dnj]
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
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Edited by Dnj (02/07/18 04:54 PM)
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#446113 - 02/07/18 09:30 PM
Re: Yamaha Montage at NAMM 2018
[Re: Dnj]
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Senior Member
Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
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but how many arranger players need or even ever use "in depth" synth workstation features, editing, etc, etc,..? why pay for all that if your never ever going to use those features or easily do it on your DAW programs? a' you can not eddit nor create new sounds for an your arranger on a DAW. You can only edit midi and audio... and trasfering up and down to the DAW is not really convenient b' The biggest point of having a deep sound edditing engine is that it allows those users that want and will use it to create new sounds, and share them freely with the community. Making it a better place for everyone. So indirectly everyone bennefits from having those workstation features on an arranger. On top of that there is those features that don´t have to do anything with edditing. For example having 8 or more sounds layered and split over the keyboard, and the freedom to do so as you wish, combined with the sliders this is a very powerfull feature.. which should which should be benneficial to all arranger players. And then there is the advanced arp features )and user arps of the workstations, which also would be huge combined with an arranger. Other features, like Montage´s integration with the prementioned DAW-Cubase would also be a huge thing for many, espescially since we are dependant on the DAW for edditing. Its best to ask this question to people that own both a traditional workstation and an arranger, and ask them what features from the workstation would be welcome on the arranger.
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#446130 - 02/08/18 05:37 AM
Re: Yamaha Montage at NAMM 2018
[Re: Nigel]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15569
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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How about one of you folks providing us with YOUR definition of a Pro Player. My definition is simple, someone that plays for a fee. Therefore, I guess I was considered a pro player because it's what I did for a living for more than 30 years. It was my sole source of income for more than 20 years and the only thing that changed during the past decade is that I had to take my retirement, something I didn't want to do, but it was required by law when I hit age 70-1/2. When I was a freelance outdoor writer, I was considered a professional writer/journalist. It was what I did for a living, often in conjunction with playing music and being a Pro entertainer. I know a large number of pro players, all of which own and exclusively use an arranger keyboard. What's wrong with this picture? Gary ![cool cool](/forum/images/graemlins/default_dark/cool.gif)
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
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#446138 - 02/08/18 07:09 AM
Re: Yamaha Montage at NAMM 2018
[Re: Nigel]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
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How about one of you folks providing us with YOUR definition of a Pro Player.
My definition is simple, someone that plays for a fee. Gary, with all due respect, that is the weakest definition of a professional I've ever heard. To me, a 'professional' is defined by a combination of TRAINING, COMPETENCE, AND EXPERIENCE. If Quincy Jones (or any top producer) requests you for a session, you are a professional. If you play in a major symphony orchestra or Broadway production, or touring with a MAJOR music act, or teaching music (exclusively) at the high school level or above, or recognized by your peers as such, you are a professional. A back-room abortionist can practice his/her 'craft' for 30 years (and make a good living at it) but that doesn't make them a doctor. There IS such a thing as a semi-professional; 'semi' because they're missing one or more of the key components that signifies a true professional. Most true professionals also belong to multiple professional music organizations and most have certifications of some kind to attest to their level of professionalism. Aviation is a good example. Everyone even remotely associated with aviation knows what a 'professional pilot' is and nobody is going to consider you a 'professional' just because you've got 30 years flying a Piper Cub (at 2000ft in fair weather). I say all this because I think it's disingenuous to say that just because someone is paid a fee for something, that makes them a professional. He MIGHT be a professional but he is not automatically one. The two guys I play with (jam with, actually) are true professionals while I, on the other hand, am a true amateur. Because we're all retired and do it for fun, they tolerate me, but when they were working 'pro's', they probably wouldn't have given me the time of day. Now, I'm in a position to learn from the best and I'm enjoying it immensely. Hey, I only responded to this post because; 1. You asked. 2. I don't think the word 'Pro' or 'Professional' should be thrown around lightly. Glad you asked, though. I like meaningful dialog. chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
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#446142 - 02/08/18 07:22 AM
Re: Yamaha Montage at NAMM 2018
[Re: Nigel]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
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Edited by Dnj (02/08/18 08:25 AM)
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#446174 - 02/08/18 12:32 PM
Re: Yamaha Montage at NAMM 2018
[Re: Nigel]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15569
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Chas, that's the best you could come up with? How about: A professional is a member of a profession or any person who earns their living from a specified professional activity. The term also describes the standards of education and training that prepare members of the profession with the particular knowledge and skills necessary to perform their specific role within that profession. In addition, most professionals are subject to strict codes of conduct, enshrining rigorous ethical and moral obligations.[1] Professional standards of practice and ethics for a particular field are typically agreed upon and maintained through widely recognized professional associations, such as the IEEE.[2] Some definitions of "professional" limit this term to those professions that serve some important aspect of public interest [3] and the general good of society.[4][5] In some cultures, the term is used as shorthand to describe a particular social stratum of well-educated workers who enjoy considerable work autonomy and who are commonly engaged in creative and intellectually challenging work. (From Wikipedia) How about this one: [pruh-fesh-uh-nl] adjective 1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder. 2. of, relating to, or connected with a profession : professional studies. 3. appropriate to a profession : professional objectivity. 4. engaged in one of the learned professions : A lawyer is a professional person. 5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer. 6. making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,” he said, “is a professional optimist.”. 7. undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball. noun 10. a person who belongs to one of the professions, especially one of the learned professions. 11. a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional. 12. an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro. 13. a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional. (From Dictionary.com) Now, I as I said earlier, I know a lot of pro players, three of which were Peabody trained, two that have big bands and write their own scores, and several that could play with any symphony and play as directed without having second thoughts. I considered Joe Ayala a pro player and while he preferred playing a grand piano, his income was generated playing an arranger keyboard. Helmut Lict can play just about any instrument that has keys, and loves playing the grand piano, but he generates the bulk of his income playing an arranger keyboard. Helmut was trained professionally in Berlin, Germany. Jerry Burns, currently retired, is a Peabody trained pianist. He was in the US Army Band, and leaving the Army went to work for the Zim Zemeral Orchestra for three decades playing an arranger keyboard. Jerry is a pro player. The list is endless. My entire point about professional players, is that they will and do purchase arranger keyboards - and do not look down their noses at arranger keyboards, or arranger keyboard players. None of the pro players that I know, personally, prefer a synth over an arranger, especially when it comes to making a living on stage. As for me, I'm just a retired, hack entertainer - not a musician. However, everyone considered me a pro entertainer, and I managed to make a few hundred dollars in the business. I had no formal musical training, learned what I know on my own, school of hard knocks! ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default_dark/smile.gif) Not everyone in this business that has been successful was a trained musician. Classic example: Irving Berlin. Was he a pro? You betcha! There are lots of Irving Berlins out there - I'm just not among them. Sorry for the rant, Gary ![cool cool](/forum/images/graemlins/default_dark/cool.gif)
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#446198 - 02/08/18 05:16 PM
Re: Yamaha Montage at NAMM 2018
[Re: Nigel]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
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Wow! Talk about deflection. Everything in my post had to do with what constitutes a PROFESSIONAL MUSICIAN. I did not mention once (nor do I care) what kind of instrument they choose to use. In fact, I saw very little in your dictionary references that refuted what I said. YOUR point was very clear...if you got paid, you're a professional. I disagreed with that definition, explaining (or trying to) that that singular criteria was not enough to clearly define a 'professional'. As usual, the 'league of arranger-defenders' hastened to change it to 'OMG, he's trying to say professionals don't use Arrangers'. The truth is, MOST professionals DON'T. There are literally tens of thousands of TRUE music professionals out there; because you know TWO that use Arranger keyboards is hardly conclusive proof of whatever it is you're trying to prove. I reiterate, I never brought up the subject of arrangers or whether their use had any bearing on whether someone is a 'professional' or not. It's HOW you play, not WHAT you play, that's important. 'Entertainer' is too broad a field for me to a say if someone is a 'professional' or not, but then, this is a MUSIC forum so I tend to base my judgments on someone's music skills. A lion tamer, a bull rider, an alligator wrestler; they're all entertainers. I guess you could say, if they don't get themselves killed, they're professionals. My whole point was, just because you get paid a fee doesn't NECESSARILY make you a professional. That was my ONLY point. I stand by it.
chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
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#446214 - 02/09/18 12:21 AM
Re: Yamaha Montage at NAMM 2018
[Re: cgiles]
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Member
Registered: 12/17/12
Posts: 770
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SNIP My whole point was, just because you get paid a fee doesn't NECESSARILY make you a professional. That was my ONLY point. I stand by it. chas Chas, though I like your definition much better myself, I'd say that Gary is also right about his definition. Years ago, a fellow musician told me, "Now that you played your first paid gig, you are a professional musician." I thought that was a silly statement. I thought he just wanted to make sure that he himself was referred to as a professional musician though he can't really function without an arranger. He said that he played a lot of gigs in Hollywood just because people liked to hear his latest $6,000 electronic instrument(Cordovox) even though he played basically 3 chords on it. Sounded like he did make a living for a few years playing 3 chords. Well, his full-time "profession" was playing music (whether it involved 3 or 14,000 chords). Full-time profession - professional. You may not like how the word is used but the thing is that language is never static, but always fluid. A case in point; I saw a large painting of a San Francisco bar in a pioneer village. The caption read, "Life in SF back then was gay." The spelling han't changed, but the meanings have changed. I am all ears when Fran and Gary speak because I've read lots of posts by both and I enjoyed their "amusing" discussions on Bose vs Roland speakers. (I went with the Roland BA330, and read a long article on the internet as to why "professional" musicians don't use Bose speakers) Both Gary and Fran have made a great case and yet I never remember they got personal with each other. My hats off to them. I can't speak for Gary, but I remember Gary saying a few times, "I am not a musician, but an entertainer." Just as Tony gave an example of how the words professional and amateur are used in music competitions or in sports, often meanings can change depending on the context. A text taken out of the context is a pretext. An important concept for me especially when reading the Bible. Yes, words are important, but I'd say more important are the heart condition. I'd think that a true professional musician doesn't really have to emphasize that he or she/is a professional. The world will say it for him/her. Earlier I called up my friend(the Hollywood 3 chord guy) and told him about this thread. When I told him about Gary, I could feel it; if he was 10 years younger, I bet he would have asked me for Gary's phone number to learn the trade secret.
_________________________
"You Shall Know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free." John 8:32
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#446240 - 02/09/18 09:19 AM
Re: Yamaha Montage at NAMM 2018
[Re: cgiles]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
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“I cgiles Offline Senior Member Registered: September, 29 2005 Posts: 4658 Loc: Roswell,GA/USA My take is that very few combined-function/swiss-army-knife devices (of ANY sort) perform as well as a separately developed dedicated device performing the same function. Sure, you can put a hammer head or saw on the end of a screwdriver but nobody would buy it, simply because it is simply not as good as it's single-function counterpart.
Arrangers (and Workstations) will continue to evolve because developers are constantly trying to create the 'perfect' arranger (or workstation). If arranger-functions were merely a 'feature' on some 'Master do-it-all keyboard', it probably wouldn't get the same level of R&D. Let's face it; Arranger players want the ultimate ARRANGER, and Workstation players want the ultimate WORKSTATION, and never the twain shall meet. Also, what Donny said; it's probably way more profitable to keep them seperate. Trust me, the corporations know what they're doing (marketing wise). JMO, though.
chas “
I respectfully disagree with you Chas. The reality of the situation is that most musicians do not fall at the extreme ends of either group. Most musicians actually fall somewhere in the middle. For example most arranger players use probably 30% -50 percent of the arranger features even though you can do so much more in terms of actual performance related style playing. And most workstation please probably use a similar percentage of their workstation keyboard. Most do not know how to design sounds from scratch and can only tweak or buy professional sounds and import them .
In general all musicians simply want to use the tools available to them to get the job done to a reasonable standard. No one is trying to paint a picaso or craft the most perfect musical production that can be crafted on one keyboard like a record ready production.
. However they do want to be able to make great music relatively easily , authentic in every way when desired, or quick rough and ready when the circumstances demand it
. And most working musicians will take sigle , duo and band or studio work if your skills are up to it.
Why then would they not desire one keyboard that could cover all bases reasonably well?
There is a reason why the Swiss Army knife is a world renowned name in most cultures everywhere but only a handful of people can name a specific type of blade like the Bowie knife or Stanley knife or scalpel let alone how to use them properly .
There is more ignorance amongstkeyboard players about strangers than any other instrument . Just look how hard it has been to define the difference between a “true”” workstation and a “arranger “ workstation.
Edited by spalding1968 (02/09/18 09:34 AM)
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#446252 - 02/09/18 12:28 PM
Re: Yamaha Montage at NAMM 2018
[Re: Nigel]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
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Spalding, you're more than welcome to disagree, respectfully or not, after all it's just one opinion vs. another. In most of these type 'discussions', the free-thinkers will use logic and observable facts to decide on an issue; the 'herd' will decide based on the popularity of the poster (It's one of those "you can't prove it but you know it's true" kind of things). I will always call it as I see it and try hard not to be one of those 'check to see who the poster is, read the first three words of the post, immediately start writing a rebuttal ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default_dark/smile.gif) ). But hey, that's one of the things that make THIS forum less boring than most of the other forums---it's a cult of personalities, some good (like me ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default_dark/smile.gif) ) and some not so good, like ....... uh, you know who you are ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default_dark/smile.gif) . For those that don't know me well, that last statement was said in jest....mostly. BTW, how are things over there? We'll trade you Theresa May for......never mind, don't want to start a riot ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default_dark/smile.gif) . BTW, not a big fan of church or religion (as you well know), but I love and admire the work you do with the youth groups in your church. I so much rather see them in a youth choir than hanging out on street corners (I'm ol' school, I guess ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default_dark/smile.gif) ). chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
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