With some serious thought, I’ve decided to leave the arranger keyboard scene. Recently I’ve switched my entire setup to computer. I’ve just not been feeling that the arranger meets my needs anymore. I’ve switched over to DAW’s and VST’s. The workflow (at least for me ) is so much more intuitive.

I just no longer see the point in buying new keyboards anymore for my use. It’s much more sensible as a home musician to buy a new VST rather than an entire new board. It’s considerably cheaper and majorly saves on space.

Had some good back and forth with members here over the years. I wish you all well, and the best....

Sqk

Especially if you are not playing live (not sure of your personal situation) your setup can indeed make a lot of sense. Enjoyed your posts over the years-don't be a stranger and best wishes.

Squeak it's no surprise with all the different ways to make music today and the popularity of computer based programs it's no surprise especially if you are not performing out. Good luck, explore and discover new things…! It's the wave of the future of music...
Merry Christmas

Squeak
Best wishes for your new venture ... enjoy whatever you do ...
Stay well ...

Exactly.., I don’t perform anymore. I can do so much more with software than I can with hardware. The other day I bought a VST on sale. Over 2000 sounds, many sounding better than my MZX-500.., and I paid $4.99 for the thing! For less than $5.00 I essentially got a new keyboard (plus I have a slew of other VST’s). It’s the best move for me.

Sqk

Let me guess what you got; xPand!2. If so, I agree that it has tons of very good patches. I bought another license for it when it was going for 99 cents. It's their way (Air Music Tech) to get you to upgrade to the expansion bundle. The expansion bundle is a bargain itself. It would be great to be able to call up sounds in xPand!2 by MIDI PC messages. You can sort of solve the problem by creating lots of "rackspaces" in Gig Performer.

I, too, no longer buy high end keyboards anymore thanks to software based instruments and tools though I still play occasional gigs. You can't beat its flexibility. However, it is easy to spend lots of money on software as well.

Whatever it takes to please your internal "music muse"... and I wish you tons of happiness in this pursuit. You can always decide to "backslide" if you get bored... but I doubt if that will be the case. Making music... no matter what the method... is good for the soul... and hopefully, good for the hearts and minds of your listeners. All the best, ----Dave Rice

Yes! It was xPand2. I downloaded the trial version, and within ten minutes I was shocked! I’ve got several of AIR’s products. xPand2, Mini Grand, DB-33, and Velvet. Haven’t looked back since stepping away from arrangers.

Sqk

I hope Yamaha and others are watching these post and realize nobody wants to spend $5,000 on an arranger keyboard anymore just saying....
Vst/Daw programs are taking over...

Then I hope they are not watching, because I really enjoy playing arrangers.
Not going to spend 5k on one though, unless it has features that would justify that price. So far no one has for sure.

Squeak: Good luck with your new approach. It certainly makes sense for what your doing.

jingleman

I agree Don.... a lot of people found that out the hard way.... Oh well

Thank you Don for that perspective. I too really enjoy playing my 3000. I also really enjoy using vst's I see no reason why I can't use both.

Arrangers were a good way to get started for a man with talent. A talented OMB keeps trying to improve; different keyboards, mics, sounds, styles, and a bunch of other things.

After a while they become frustrated; the options are many, but most fall short – they want to sound better; they want to sound like the real thing, but cannot. They will always be the substitute.

I AM NOT PUTTING ARRANGER KEYBOARDS DOWN. I am talking about the talented OMB who is searching for his perfect wave. For me arranger keyboards are perfect – I was the leader of my (real) band for many years – now with my arranger keyboard I still a leader. PERFECT.

Good luck Squeak, go for it, John C.

At this stage of life, I really don't give a damned what things cost. The kids will have to sell all my stuff, anyway. Anyone want to buy a sailing yacht?

Gary

To each his needs...

I am a big fan of VST's..
And think the same way as you..
Where it comes to upgrading them..

But, since i am mostly a player, and not so much a creator
I can't live witouth the easy access to styles..
The sit and play of an arranger is unparalleled..

But for new and exciting sounds, i am moving more and more to my mac and mainstage and VST's

If you are a creator however, the workflow of a good daw is unparalelled.

Right on, sir. Your post reminds me of two extremes on the use of an arranger keyboard/module in our area. One is my former teacher - a finest Jazz organist/accordionist. He makes the arranger sound good rather than the other way around! He interacts with long intro/endings of the arranger. He does it so well that it makes it sound like he plays with a live band. The other one hides behind the arranger. While the arranger plays a long ending, he just waits until it is over. In between, he fights the arranger (clashing with the arranger accompaniment, missing the beat, and so forth)...

Fully agree! It doesn't have to either or, but both! One can use an inexpensive arranger for backup and use HQ VST for solo voices.

Actually, it should be the other way around. Manufacturers will keep selling at the cost of your arm and leg as long as people keep buying. A friend of mine used to play a MIDI accordion. A brand new one would be around $20,000. He says it is a Rolls Royce of midi accordions. You can do the same and a lot more and better sounds if you just get a MIDI foot controller and a good sound module. I've noticed that accordion players are so used to paying top dollars that they take it for granted. I have an Italian friend whose father was an accordion dealer in SF years ago. He used to say that accordion dealers priced themselves out of business. I bought all my Roland digital accordions at cost from a dealer friend. Still, I couldn't help but thinking that if I paid the same amount, I would get by far a lot more keyboard.

Let me be quick to point out that for example a Kronos for 3 to 4 grand is worth it. You do get what you pay for, but in many other cases, you get a lot less than what you pay for. You are paying for the hype. That is insulting besides the money issue.

Good for you!!! I guess you are right about being shocked. You can layer sounds in xPand2 and get hugh sounds out of it, and yet the footprint of xPand2 is so small. Sounds switch instantly like hardware. Mini Grand is a lovely piano with its own characteristics. Velvet is a gem for those who are into electric piano.

Whenever I read your post, I have to guard myself. It costs me money!!! Once I almost bought a Mac setup despite my bias against Apple as a company after I read your posts in regards to Mac and Mainstage. A good thing that I waited a bit. A Macbook Pro was given to me. The 1st thing that I did was shell out $29 for Mainstage to toy with it, but I didn't really use the Macbook Pro. I just didn't want to deal with two OS systems and keep upgrading hardware. However, I bought another license for Gig Performer for my MBP at a discount so that I can use my VST instruments and effects in it, too. Your Arturia bundle post cost me $250.

Dan and Chris, I also have the same line up of VST's.. and yes "velvet" is my favorite for EP's.. DB-33 is also great, although I prefer the old NI B4.

Although I like my Code61 … a lot.. It is nicer to have my G70 keys and range to play VST's, within MixCraft 8.

And why not use a dedicated arranger keyboard of the G70 quality to do so?

For me, it is much faster to work on hardware.. less chance of losing my train of thought.

Having another hardware piece, Integra7, interfaced with my DAW, adds much to my set up..
That is two hardware units I don't want to give up.., and they work well with my DAWs..

Fran, for me the software route just works better. Plus being able to use a large monitor is a real benefit. My main controller is the M-Audio Hammer 88. I also use my MOXF as a controller too (depending on the project). These days IMO it’s just so much more economical to go the computer route if you’re not performing. Some VST’s can be costly, but there are 1000’s of affordable ones with great sound quality. With websites like PluginBotique.com a home player can put together a very good collection of VST’s for much less than buying a new keyboard. I use MixCraft-8 Pro. It’s a great DAW.

I will say that a MAJOR benefit of using VST’s is that the vast majority of companies let you “try before you buy” with Trial versions. A lot of them offer fully functional versions too. That’s something keyboard makers just can’t compete with.

I’ll probably peek in here from time to time, but I’m moving away from the arranger market. I’ll end up giving my MZX-500 to my oldest daughter when she goes to college. Don’t have the MicroArranger anymore either. I’m keeping a couple hardware units, but I’ll even be saying goodbye to my old trusty Roland RS70 too because Roland offers the Sound Canvas VST. The majority of the RS’s sounds are directly from the Sound Canvas line (only reason I kept it all these years).

Sqk

Squek, what was the 4.99 vst and where did you get it. I checked out AIR website and xpand2 was $99. Special for ProTools 8 owners for$49.00.

It’s called Xpand!2, and sold at PluginBotique.com for $4.99. They had it for $1.00 before too. You can get AIR products from that site much cheaper than AIR’s site, they have some agreement with them.

Sqk

As for me, 15 years ago or so, I tried really hard to switch to VSTs. I struggled with latency, the way I played the piano it was quite noticeable, and I thought that upgrading my PC would solve it, but I never got around to do it. I felt that in the end I just want to play music, not to deal with the computer all the time.

The other issue is that, I guess, I have never really been into “synth’s” music.

The thing which is mentioned from time to time but still is sort of unofficial is that Yamaha PSR series is more suitable for a traditional popular music than other lines of keyboards. It is mostly a soft, not aggressive kind of music. And it works for me.

I’ve spent more time with an acoustic piano and guitar than working with synth voices, so this can be just my personal preference.

Today after reading this topic I downloaded xPand2 and started it on my computer. My current PC is a very modest one, so I have some latency. I tried acoustic sounds - pianos and guitars, for example, to my opinion, are rather inferior to ones that Yamaha PSR has (middle range and higher).

I’m not going to judge synth sounds, as I stated, it’s not my area.

I’m afraid that if the goal is to have the most playable acoustic sounds plus a decent backing for them, the TOTL arranger is still a way to go. For those who like to work primarily with synth sounds and experiment with new kinds of music, maybe VSTs are a better option. I don’t want to impose my opinion here, it’s not really an opinion, more like a feeling.

I just don’t know what to do with this software if I feel like composing some song in style of bossanova, for example.

To me Yamaha’s acoustic voices are rather impressive and with each new product they get better. More important is that these voices are responsive to the way you play them, I mean, you can sound through them very emotional. This is something that sometimes gets neglected when people judge one product or another.

And an accompaniment feature is perhaps the most tricky one. It challenges the digital instrument altogether. If one voice of the accompaniment doesn’t work right then it all sounds wrong.

I would love to have it flexible and affordable, but first of all I need it to be playable and stable.

In Russia in terms of weak ruble the prices of the instruments are just shockingly high. And I hate that in order to upgrade my keyboard I have to buy a whole new one. Just to think that the keyboard I have still has a decent set of speakers and there’s no way to use them separately is kind of sad.

But in the end it’s not about making a perfect purchase, it’s about fulfilling my needs and I can compose elsewhere.

So far I’m thinking about buying a new keyboard with nonexistent money and it gives me a headache, but that’s the life, I guess. We have to prioritize.

A decent external sound card/module with ASIO drivers will solve your latency problems. (Unless it is a very old computer and it is still running XP)
Whatever type of sounds you want will be available in VSTs, putting even the TOTL Arranger voices to shame when it comes to authenticity and expression, but, you have to set them up as you require, they are not normally OOTB sounds like on arrangers. (They are easier to customise to personal preference though)
To be honest, you are hearing VSTs all around you most of the time, you just don’t realise it as they sound the same as real instruments.
The arranger’s main forte is that they are easy play, tightly integrated, and you can press a button and everything is set up for you. (They are after all primarily designed for home hobby players and those that no longer have room for home entertainment organs)
In the end you pick the type of instrument that suits you, as your personal preference will be different to anybody else. (There is no one way that suits all)

Bill

I don't think XPand2 is an end all VST compared to hardware. Personally I think some of the sounds in it are better than some arrangers though. The point is what the VST gives you in terms of features and sounds for the price. Many of XPands guitars are quite good, and even have nuances that are editable. Saxes are programmed to play monophonic and utilize aftertouch for volume swells. Even if it were $50 it would be well worth it.

Sqk

Please excuse my ignorance but what is a Vst/Daw?

VST = Virtual Studio Technology
Think of it as a hardware board/module that is purely software on a computer, thus easily expandable and upgradable.

DAW = Digital Audio Workstation
Think of it as an advanced Midi & Audio sequencer that runs on a computer and is fully expandable and upgradable.

Bill

Fran, no question that a hardware based setup would be more convenient for gigs, but Dan was talking about playing music for himself at home. Speaking of the Code 61, my Code 61 is replaced by the Numa Compact 2x. I just ran the NC2X organ through IK Multimedia Leslie, which many say is the best Leslie sim. I was well pleased with the results. I would never play a serious gig with just one controller with no-built sounds. With the NC2x, if something goes wrong, you can always use the built-in sounds.

Interesting,thanks for that.